As I understand it, a creature using Astral Perception is unable to utilized AR or to read electronically reproduced images (such as on a computer screen). I've also read that Astral Perception is NOT just visual but all senses. So, that would seem to indicate that you can't hear the sounds coming from your earbud speakers either.

So, since Dual Natured creatures can't stop astrally perceiving, and you can not use both astral and physical perception at the same time (but you do see the astral images of the physical stuff), I have to ask:

Can a Dual Natured creature use electronic communications? Can they perceive what comes out of the speakers?

Dual nature could use AR fine.

The catch is:

'normal' creature can not view both worlds at the same time.

So if Astral Percieving can not view the mundance AR.

A dual Nature entity is seeing both at all time.

So while the AR wouldnt show up on the 'astral' they could still see the AR since it is visible to the 'meat' eyes.

Where does it say that you cannot use AR? I couldn't find the reference in the Astral Perception section. All it says is that everything has a reflection in the astral and non-living non-magic items are reflected as grey and lifeless. I figured that you could still use AR when astrally perceiving but you would have the -2 dice as per normal. Dual natured creatures are used to seeing things astrally so they don't have the -2.

Personally, I feel that the one-at-a-time sentence was a mistake and it is confusing. Astral Perception is a psychic sense and it did not interfere with any other senses in any previous editions. Previously it was a sixth sense that complimented the other five, rather than replaced them.

The RAW says that ghouls can't see, hear, smell, or taste anything in the physical world.
18 years of previous and current flavor text say that they are blind because of eye damage but all of their other senses are fine and they can regain physical sight through surgery.

When RAW and flavor contradict each other, one of them must be wrong.

In this case, the RAW also states that Ghouls have Enhanced Hearing and Smell, which should be useless due to their dual nature if you follow the one-at-a-time rule.

This makes no sense. It is, in fact, absurd. Why would Ghouls have enhanced senses that they can never use? It constitutes a proof by contradiction which clearly indicates that the RAW is incorrect.
Our only question is which part of the RAW is incorrect. In this case, Ghouls using physical senses is supported by current and past flavor test as well as past RAW. On the other hand, the one-at-a-time rule is contradicted by flavor text and past RAW.
The only logical conclusion is that the one-at-a-time rule is incorrect and an astrally perceiving character does have use of all of his physical senses.

odinson:

How does AR display in Astral?

Does a projecting mage get AR?


Since ALL astral perception is a psychic perception, do you need a commlink to see AR in the astral?


If you think meat body senses some how carry over, then explain why a blind mage 'sees' while astral.

Um ... aren't ghouls blind?

Not astrally, of course, but wouldn't that rather effectively negate the use of visual AR?

OK. Here's a more specific example:

Our group has a Hedge Witch with an Ally Spirit. Ordinarily, she operates with the Ally in Possession of her at all times (yes, she has Channeling). The question came up as to whether or not the now-Dual Natured Hedge Witch/Spirit can utilize her commlink - specifically for communication (mainly needing hearing but also some visual) - or if she is limited to just Astral Perception. The bit of gray really comes from the fact that Spirits - even when Materialized - can not see AR and nothing specifically states how this will interact with Possession.

I'm considering altering the RAW to allowing Dual Natured beings (including Magicians and Adepts using Astral Perception) to use both AP and physical senses. The -2 penalty to physical actions would apply only to those creatures not able to 'turn off' their Astral Perception (those that are not typically Dual Natured). Wholly Astral creatures would not have access to physical senses.

There are a lot of problems with the flippant way dual critters are handled in the basic rules. Hopefully we'll have them sorted out in Running Wild. Off the top of my head, here are some things that will get clarified:

• Dual natured critters do need to make Astral Combat checks to attack astral forms with their claws. This means that yes, barghests and ghouls, and hellhounds can attack astrally projecting magicians.
  
• Dual natured critters do not suffer a -2 penalty to actions every single moment of their lives.
  
• Dual natured critters do not have a separate astral body and only have one damage track size to keep track of.
  
• Dual natured critters see the astral and the physical all the time with no penalty. Except ghouls of course, who don't see the physical at all.

Those things are unclear in the basic book. Hopefully this will get clarified in Running Wild.

-Frank

OK, I think I found the source of my problem.

Under the sidebar on Possession it says the Spirit can not access AR interfaces, DNI, or cyberware interfaces. All of that makes sense except for 'AR interfaces'.

If AR interfaces were replaced with 'simsense' it would be fine, but other AR interfaces include HUDs and tight-beamed audio (see SR4, page 209). If we're dealing with "real" light and sound the Dual Natured Spirit should still be able to see and hear it, even if the light and sound are being made by a device, right?

Yes, this a lower-end AR interface compared to just simsensing it, but the blanket AR interface comment seems to be the source of my confusion regarding whether Dual Natured creatures (specifically Spirits in Possession of a body) can make out the auditory output of a set of earbuds (as opposed to a simsense insertion of the 'sounds').

Did that make sense?

Yeah, I probably should have searched for that as well, I suppose its all how one defines "freely communicate". I won't belabor it here though, but thanks for the feedback and I will certainly read up on that discussions.

Is it possible for the possessed witch to turn off the ally spirit and gain control of her body for a few moments so she can utilize her commlink? I think that would make sense and I'd probably allow the dual-natured witch to use her AR equipment in that situation.

I think that in previous editions it was more clear that dual-natured creatures function flawlessly in both planes simultaneously all the time. In any case, that's the simplest way to house rule it. Otherwise dual-natured becomes more of a gimp than a power.

Dual-natured already has the terrible drawback that it makes the dual-natured entity vulnerable to astral attack all the time. You're shapeshifter PC is standing in a room with his hacker, street samurai, and face friends - also a hostile fire spirit 8 present only on the astral plane. Your shapeshifter has to fight that battle alone. Also there's the issue of astral barriers.

Edition after edition, ghouls have always been a pain in the butt because they are physically blind, but dual-natured. So, can they used ranged weapons, and if so, at what penalty?

Well, a possessed vessel is dual natured because the spirit is in control and the spirit is an astral being, becoming dual natured when it possesses something or materializes.

The Channeling allows the magucian access to her skills and fine-motor control of her body while possessed, but I'd say SHE can still only use her own senses UNLESS she wants to spend an action to use the spirits powers. So she'll still have to decide whether she uses astral or mundane senses, because although they are the same entity, they use their abilities separately.

That'd be my take on it, at least.

Using channeling is something akin to pushing the spirit back and traking control herself, from what I understand.

I've always run DN's as having only their normal physical/stun damage track as i've never seen anything about an astral damage track (other than the body will go comatose if the spirit dies and if the body dies the spirit can wander on for magic x2 hours). Wounds in astral and physical are the same (the body and spirit are interconnected). Similar to how technomancers use one damage monitor though their "mind" is elsewhere in the matrix.

When astrally perceiving your dual natured, but you can't see AR as non-living/non-astral objects are just grey blobs.

For (un)natural dual natured creatures like ghouls and manifesting spirits, they sense both without penalty simultaneously (as stated under spirit forms pg 176, but unless they have a nervous system can't see AR)

The real issue is possession since its a blend of a character assensing/or not and similar to manifesting spirit (just inside you). I treat possession as more of a true dual nature like a ghoul or manifesting spirit (after all it IS the spirit perceiving) so you see both simultaneously as well, but since spirits can't perceive AR, neither can possessed characters (but you can see other physical things).

Its worked pretty good thus far.

Try this.

Magicians assensing - Can't use AR cause they can't see physical and assense at the same time.

Ghouls - Can use AR since they can experience it, have a nervous system, and see both astral and physical simultaneously and were once metahuman.

Mainfesting Spirits - Easier just to rule that because they have no experiences with AR where they come from and its one of those "extra senses" and they have no actual nervous system they just tune it out. They don't see or hear like we do. Though they effectively see and hear, they just can't make sense of AR and can't use speakers or headphones or really even understand or watch trideo. You can't call a spirit on the phone or have him transfer creds.

Possession Spirits in a Vessel - Since they're in primary control, they filter out AR and ignore that weird buzz in their ear just as they ignore implants and cyberware. Its alien to them. Your in the back seat giving directions blindfolded sort of so it doesn't help that you have a nervous system.

Channeled Spirits in a Vessel - You could make an exception here for a couple of reasons, but ultimately the spirit is still driving and your in the front seat giving directions. Maybe you could see AR but the fact that your simultaneously seeing astral and physical means AR gets lost in the noise, the speaker in your ear is overridden by the howl of the spirit in your blood or whatever some such. Just to much going on at once.

Overall when a character or spirit with assensing is concerned no AR. Ghouls are an exception to the rule as they were once metahumans and now dual natured.

I wouldn't even let nagas or other fantasy dual natured creatures perceive AR even though they are physical, have nervous systems, and can perceive astral/physical at the same time because its just to alien to them.

If non-astral/non-living objects are seen as grey blobs by an assensing magician meta (techniquely DN), imagine what they sound like, you'd hear something but it'd be pretty unintelligible or indistinct (kinda like the AR rules and astral space). Your senses are focused on your "third eye" your astral cognition, your experiences emotions and auras. If someone shouted a warning, You'd "hear" Danger and a sense of panic coming from them.

Manifesting Spirits aren't going to use AR and no you can't call in instructions to your spirit or have him tape your favorite shows (though he could push record) he wouldn't know how to change a channel or what a channel is (but you could have him push the button on a remote till he got to the channel) though he probably wouldn't know that all the lights on the screen make a picture. Spirits are pretty damn ignorant to all the matrix/cyber stuff.

Really the only instance where this becomes crazy brain gymnastics is possession.

So lets look at some ways of mitigating or house ruling some of the confusion.

1) Possession as stated in Street Magic does not allow AR perception or interaction at all.

2) Possession does not allow you to manipulate AR since the spirit doesn't know what you mean when you tell it to make your body send out a call, but you can still hear your teammates talking (maybe even forcing you to have a perception test, and maybe channeling doesn't require a perception test to hear your teammates talking as a benefit)

3)Possession with channeling allows you to do both almost like a ghoul.

To me, Sprits don't have ocular photoreceptors as eyes, even when they manifest and "see" the physical they don't see it like you or I (and its never really clarified how they see or sense).

Would dual natured entities hear a speaker in their ear or music at a club? probably something, but assensing magicians would hear a kind of emotive static, and spirits couldn't tell you what they heard though voices coming from living things is something they understand, once it becomes electrical and passed through a speaker it becomes distorted and loses its meaning to them.

Could they see lights? not the assensing magician, the spirit or possessed magician yea but again the spirit whether manifesting or possessing doesn't understand that it was important and meant something.

Of course the rules are really unclear, and i'm just suggesting what works for my game (talking out my ass). Rather than say they can't see or hear which creates all kinds of weird issues, I say they can't interact effectively as in most cases for a character its pretty unintelligible.

Possession remains the only really weird conjunction, but ultimately since the spirit is driving and he doesn't know/understand anything about the AR, the possessed magician has a hard time making it out via the spirits confused interpertation

If your asking if speakers and LED's on computer screens and the holograph on a trideo is AR (since it is a matrix couried signal through a device) I'd just say yes in all cases.

A spirit possessing you could drive a car, but he'd ignore the AR roadsigns, stop lights, and other general stuff and may or not be able to read your spedometer either. He could see and hear all the people dancing in a club, but he couldn't tell you what song played or pay his entry fee other than a credstick even if he was possessing you and you had a commlink with available funds. Would the possessed character know that there were lights and music playing..I'd say yes. Would he know theres an incoming call on the commlink, probably but it would be jargon (again much like half the rules in the damn book).

Truth is the concept of this game and its basic dice system are incredible. But its various loopholes, kinks, and half-hearted attempts to add cool stuff without definitions bugs the hell out of me daily, Its like they dreamed it up and never played it at all. Where over half of these situations argued on the board would have came to light in the first few sessions. I understand why they do certain things for game balance, but part of the game is telling you the why and the how, "without the why and the how you have no power, and that is how you come to me, without power".

But take this all with a grain of salt. I argued till I was blue in the face that AR did not get extra passes from wired reflexes and the FAQ ultimately said I was wrong. I now allow it in my games because my players haven't yet figured out its potential for awesome abuse. It still gives me chills to think about the street sam slotting a few chips in his skillwires and giving the hacker what for on his own turf and still killing to boot.