 Control THoughts/Mob Mind cheesy loophole, How to lasso this in... |
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 Jun 5 2007, 05:30 PM
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#1
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Running Target  Group: Members Posts: 1,251 Joined: 11-September 04 From: GA Member No.: 6,651  |
If a target is mind controlled is it legal to issue the command: "Do not resist being Mind Controlled" so they are perma-controlled?
Also, a suggestion to the game designers: Make issuing instructions mentally a complex action that CANNOT contain the words "And" or "Or". |
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Jun 5 2007, 05:38 PM
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#2
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Ain Soph Aur Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,477 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Montreal, Canada Member No.: 600 |
Are you a programmer perchance?
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Jun 5 2007, 05:39 PM
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#3
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Target Group: Members Posts: 78 Joined: 26-February 07 From: Hildesheim, Germany Member No.: 11,107 |
1.I think i would not allow this...
2. haven't quite understood what this with "and"/"or" supposes to mean |
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Jun 5 2007, 05:41 PM
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#4
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,353 Joined: 31-December 06 Member No.: 10,502 |
You could issue it but they would resist that command same as any other. And I think any GM can tell when you're issuing more than one command at once regardless of run on sentences. The only loop I see in it is casting a second version of the spell while the first is still sustained. Not that they will roll to resist both every force combat turns but this could let you lock someone down for a long time. Of course at some point you're going to start racking up drain, they'll use edge and blow all the spells, or you'll throw a bunch of ones. |
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Jun 5 2007, 05:42 PM
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#5
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 633 Joined: 23-February 06 Member No.: 8,301 |
I presume that resistance happens whether or not the character chooses to. It is just more difficult to control strong-willed characters.
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Jun 5 2007, 05:56 PM
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#6
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,148 Joined: 27-February 06 From: UCAS Member No.: 8,314 |
Would it be easier to say that the caster is in control, and as such the target can't really make decisions, including ones specified in commands?
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Jun 5 2007, 06:45 PM
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#7
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,838 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,669 |
Unlike Influence, I've never seen Mind Control require instructions. The target is directly controlled by the magician.
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Jun 5 2007, 10:05 PM
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#8
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,251 Joined: 11-September 04 From: GA Member No.: 6,651 |
Good thoughts, thanks fellas!
After reading your thoughts (and no, I'm not a programmer) I'm of the thought that the command to not resist could itself be resisted and if successfully resisted the target would be free of the spell entirely making the 'dont resist' clause moot. As for double tapping controls... thats just MEAN! (whispers innocently) :-) |
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Jun 7 2007, 01:57 PM
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#9
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 932 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Orlando, Florida Member No.: 1,042 |
I agree with Eryk the Red. The resistance is involuntary.
But the bigger issue is this: do you think the game designers intended for this to be possible? It's a very simple trick that turns the subject from a slave for a couple of minutes to a slave forever. If slave forever was intended as an option, the designers would have been more explicit. Okay, "forever" is an overstatement, but you get my point. |
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Jun 7 2007, 03:11 PM
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#10
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 324 Joined: 18-July 06 From: Charleston, SC Member No.: 8,911 |
it's a sustained spell so it only lasts while you concentrate and nothing changes that. You can't go to sleep and wake up and they're still under your control.
You could use a spirit or foci to sustain it however for a good period. No matter what though every force combat turns the victim can try to shake off the control with a willpower eroding at your original net hits. Its an ego thing and not a concious thought. You could use a decrease attribute spell (negative) willpower to keep them enthralled longer, but then your sustaining 2 spells. Whats really interesting about the resistance though is that every force combat turns they use a complex action, meaning they can't be controled on that turn as they struggle to break it. think Zen Shooter hit the nail on the head though. If permanent Control Thoughs was allowed, it could be used on PC's too. You wouldn't get many players as a GM with that ruling and everyone would just roll mages. |
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Jun 7 2007, 03:17 PM
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#11
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...and from personal expereince I can say that is not a fun type of campaign to run... |
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Jun 7 2007, 06:52 PM
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#12
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Target Group: Members Posts: 17 Joined: 20-May 07 Member No.: 11,702 |
In my games, a target's ability to resist mind control actions is the absolute foundation of the interaction and is not a conscious decision. Her ability to resist the mind control would supersede the order not to resist it. You could not tell a target not to resist the mind control any more than you could command them not to resist the damage of the bullet or to stop their heart beat.
Just how I handle it :) |
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Jun 7 2007, 08:35 PM
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#13
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Ain Soph Aur Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,477 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Montreal, Canada Member No.: 600 |
I agree with that. |
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Jun 7 2007, 10:10 PM
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#14
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Technomancer Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,638 Joined: 2-October 02 From: Champaign, IL Member No.: 3,374 |
Edit: I've been looking for this post all morning. Interesting that it ended up in this thread. Removed for clarity.
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Jun 8 2007, 04:30 PM
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#15
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 114 Joined: 9-April 07 Member No.: 11,417 |
From what I read it seems that resisting requires effort on the part of the victim.
Pg. 202 under Manipulation Spells. "Every (Force) Combat Turns, the victim may spend a Complex Action to shake off the mental control. The victim rolls a Willpower (+ Counterspelling) Test; each hit reduces the net hits on the caster’s original Spellcasting Test. If the spellcaster’s net hits are reduced to 0, the spell no longer affects the target." Also, if he does spend the complex action to shake off the control, does that mean that he does nothing that turn? |
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Jun 8 2007, 04:41 PM
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#16
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Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
I would interpret that as:
The victim may spend, as in, the victim has the option to make that test when they feel like it, as often as every (Force) turns. If they don't want to, they don't have to, but when they want to they can make that test when they do, but once they do they have to wait (Force) turns before they have the option of making it again. However, you can't mind control order them not to make this test, because this test is in spite of mind control. They're just resisting the order not to resist, along with the rest of the mind control. If he spends the complex action to shake off the control, that would mean he does nothing that pass, not that turn. |
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Jun 8 2007, 04:55 PM
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#17
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 777 Joined: 22-November 06 Member No.: 9,934 |
but you commanded him to do something... but he didn't break control so he had to do it... but he didn't... <time paradox detected initiate purge procedures> |
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Jun 8 2007, 05:08 PM
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#18
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Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
He's still going to do it. He just hasn't gotten around to it yet. Where's the paradox? |
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Jun 8 2007, 05:44 PM
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#19
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 324 Joined: 18-July 06 From: Charleston, SC Member No.: 8,911 |
Controller - "Bite your shoulder Johnny! Do it" [force 4 control thoughts] Victim (Failed initial resist, Resisting again after 12 seconds, on his Action Phase) "Araaagggghhh!, Get out of my head you freak" <Clutches head for whatever fraction of 3 seconds his passes let him act on this turn as a complex action, Begins gnawing on his shoulder on his next action phase/initiative pass> Interestingly, a character with more initiative passes only gets the same amount of chances [combat turns] to resist AND gets to act [under your control] with his remaining passes on that Combat Turn. A slow character with only 1 pass would fight you for still just a few millisecs but wouldn't get to act again until a full 3 seconds later. In saying the victim MAY spend a complex action, he is actively struggling as your spell attempts relaxes slightly and clamps back down every force in turns (its not a constant iron grip) If you think about it. The intent of the rule is to prevent long term mental manipulation so that you don't get to enslave anyone (as Charm spells in D&D caused all kinds of problems that way). If he does break free you can just cast it again on your next Action Phase anyway. Edit* Thus the benefit of a higher force spell is the longer duration between resist. Otherwise force means nothing |
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Jun 8 2007, 05:51 PM
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#20
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 906 Joined: 16-October 06 Member No.: 9,630 |
The issue is can the mage command the subject not to resist every (force) combat turns by giving them a command to do another complex action during there resist turn. To me its simple to say the resist overrides the command, like in those films where the mind controlled subject grabs his head and moans as he tries to shake of the control. Frankly there should have been a line in the spell to make obviously self destructive orders aren't followed, such as shoot yourself in the head or |
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Jun 8 2007, 05:57 PM
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#21
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,706 Joined: 30-June 06 From: Fort Wayne, IN Member No.: 8,814 |
Exactly!!!
That last line says it all...I thought I read something in the RAW that you would not be albe to cause yourself direct harm...but that clause wasn't in there at all, which IMO, makes the spell overpowered. You can still harm the target, but it just can't be direct harm to himself...still a powerful spell, but now you take one unbalanced element out of the spell, IMO. |
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Jun 8 2007, 06:10 PM
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#22
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 324 Joined: 18-July 06 From: Charleston, SC Member No.: 8,911 |
I'd allow self-destructive orders, but only because influence specifically states that they get to break out if confronted with the wrongness of a suggestion, and control thoughts says nothing like that. The difference between influence and control thoughts is CT lets you send the impulse to his arm to load and cock the pistol and put it to his head, while influence gives him a suggestion that it was his idea to do it (life just isn't worth living, wait what am I saying..) Influence is like the low grade of just implant a suggestion. (Your awfully tired..) Control Actions lets you make do the physical stuff directly (Lay down!) Control Thoughts makes them think it, total control (Go to sleep). In all cases though the force of the spell determines how often they get to resist and get back up. With influence its less drain and they may or may not go to bed depending on the noise, circumstances, and alternatives. (I need coffee!) With Control Actions its slightly more drain but they'll lay down on the street even though they're wide awake. With Control Thoughts theres the greatest drain but they'll go to sleep wherever they were standing until they subconciously resist in Force combat turns |
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Jun 8 2007, 06:18 PM
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#23
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 192 Joined: 13-July 06 From: Long Beach Sacrifice Zone Member No.: 8,885 |
There's a cute loophole in control actions/mob control that I could see someone trying to spring on a new GM.
It says any action you command them to do is penalized by their willpower. So what if you TOLD them to resist your spell? Well, technically they roll willpower minus willpower (plus counterspelling) to resist. While this might make you chuckle, the rules are pretty clear that only actions the person is resisting (in this case, control actions/mob control relates to physical actions anyway) get the penalty, so I doubt anyone would resist resisting. "No... I won't... give in!! I... won't....let... you... make... me... resist... your... spell!! I... willl... wait, what the frag? I RESIST!!" I can't really see why players would use control actions/mob control over control thoughts/mob mind. If I were the one throwing the spells, I'd try to have mob mind and mob mood up, to keep people from panicking about being controlled. Control actions/mob control is probably the least subtle of the trio of control spells. Making people angry at someone and then thinking 'we need to restrain that Lone Star officer' is about ten times better than 'Hey, why are we all marching over here and grabbing this cop!? I don't want to do this!! Aaaiiieee!! I'm being compelled by MAGIC!!' I'm sure control actions/mob control has its uses, (especially NPC Lone Star Mages casting it then making people lie on the ground with their arms behind their backs) but if I was rolling a mage I'd rather go with control thoughts/mob mind. Actually, I usually go right to trid spectacle, instead of having the crowd restrain the cop, it's much more fun for the crowd to look like me and let the cop figure out which is the real runner. |
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Jun 8 2007, 06:30 PM
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#24
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 324 Joined: 18-July 06 From: Charleston, SC Member No.: 8,911 |
Only reason I can see is the drain of the spell. The DV for control thoughts to control actions is 2 higher. Not a big deal to a magician with a good magic rating, but some characters only use a little magic and blend it with something else. I think its awesome they distinguished between types control as individual spells and didn't just say you control the target (but how do you control him exactly) For instance why have Orgasm spell if you can control actions or thoughts to the same affect? is it just fluff? Nope its specialized control (one type of controlled action) for a lot less drain |
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Jun 8 2007, 07:06 PM
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#25
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Project Terminus: Soul Hunters Group: Members Posts: 1,052 Joined: 6-November 03 From: Casselberry, Florida U.S.A. Member No.: 5,798 |
slightly side question in past edtions this rule exsisted but I don't see it in this edtion on any mental control spell so now it is ok to tell a target go kill yourself?
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