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Wasabi
If a target is mind controlled is it legal to issue the command: "Do not resist being Mind Controlled" so they are perma-controlled?

Also, a suggestion to the game designers: Make issuing instructions mentally a complex action that CANNOT contain the words "And" or "Or".
Backgammon
Are you a programmer perchance?
Kazum
1.I think i would not allow this...

2. haven't quite understood what this with "and"/"or" supposes to mean
sunnyside
QUOTE (Wasabi)
If a target is mind controlled is it legal to issue the command: "Do not resist being Mind Controlled" so they are perma-controlled?


You could issue it but they would resist that command same as any other.

And I think any GM can tell when you're issuing more than one command at once regardless of run on sentences.

The only loop I see in it is casting a second version of the spell while the first is still sustained. Not that they will roll to resist both every force combat turns but this could let you lock someone down for a long time. Of course at some point you're going to start racking up drain, they'll use edge and blow all the spells, or you'll throw a bunch of ones.
Eryk the Red
I presume that resistance happens whether or not the character chooses to. It is just more difficult to control strong-willed characters.
Aaron
Would it be easier to say that the caster is in control, and as such the target can't really make decisions, including ones specified in commands?
HappyDaze
Unlike Influence, I've never seen Mind Control require instructions. The target is directly controlled by the magician.
Wasabi
Good thoughts, thanks fellas!

After reading your thoughts (and no, I'm not a programmer) I'm of the thought that the command to not resist could itself be resisted and if successfully resisted the target would be free of the spell entirely making the 'dont resist' clause moot.

As for double tapping controls... thats just MEAN! (whispers innocently)

smile.gif
Zen Shooter01
I agree with Eryk the Red. The resistance is involuntary.

But the bigger issue is this: do you think the game designers intended for this to be possible? It's a very simple trick that turns the subject from a slave for a couple of minutes to a slave forever. If slave forever was intended as an option, the designers would have been more explicit.

Okay, "forever" is an overstatement, but you get my point.
Wiseman
it's a sustained spell so it only lasts while you concentrate and nothing changes that. You can't go to sleep and wake up and they're still under your control.

You could use a spirit or foci to sustain it however for a good period.

No matter what though every force combat turns the victim can try to shake off the control with a willpower eroding at your original net hits. Its an ego thing and not a concious thought.

You could use a decrease attribute spell (negative) willpower to keep them enthralled longer, but then your sustaining 2 spells.

Whats really interesting about the resistance though is that every force combat turns they use a complex action, meaning they can't be controled on that turn as they struggle to break it.

think Zen Shooter hit the nail on the head though. If permanent Control Thoughs was allowed, it could be used on PC's too. You wouldn't get many players as a GM with that ruling and everyone would just roll mages.
Kyoto Kid
QUOTE (Wiseman)
...and everyone would just roll mages.

...and from personal expereince I can say that is not a fun type of campaign to run...
Jagger
In my games, a target's ability to resist mind control actions is the absolute foundation of the interaction and is not a conscious decision. Her ability to resist the mind control would supersede the order not to resist it. You could not tell a target not to resist the mind control any more than you could command them not to resist the damage of the bullet or to stop their heart beat.

Just how I handle it smile.gif
Backgammon
QUOTE (Jagger)
In my games, a target's ability to resist mind control actions is the absolute foundation of the interaction and is not a conscious decision. Her ability to resist the mind control would supersede the order not to resist it. You could not tell a target not to resist the mind control any more than you could command them not to resist the damage of the bullet or to stop their heart beat.

Just how I handle it smile.gif

I agree with that.
Dashifen
Edit: I've been looking for this post all morning. Interesting that it ended up in this thread. Removed for clarity.
Dayhawk
From what I read it seems that resisting requires effort on the part of the victim.


Pg. 202 under Manipulation Spells.

"Every (Force) Combat Turns, the victim may spend a
Complex Action to shake off the mental control. The victim
rolls a Willpower (+ Counterspelling) Test; each hit reduces
the net hits on the caster’s original Spellcasting Test. If
the spellcaster’s net hits are reduced to 0, the spell no longer
affects the target."

Also, if he does spend the complex action to shake off the control, does that mean that he does nothing that turn?
Moon-Hawk
I would interpret that as:
The victim may spend, as in, the victim has the option to make that test when they feel like it, as often as every (Force) turns. If they don't want to, they don't have to, but when they want to they can make that test when they do, but once they do they have to wait (Force) turns before they have the option of making it again.
However, you can't mind control order them not to make this test, because this test is in spite of mind control. They're just resisting the order not to resist, along with the rest of the mind control.
If he spends the complex action to shake off the control, that would mean he does nothing that pass, not that turn.
djinni
QUOTE (Moon-Hawk)
If he spends the complex action to shake off the control, that would mean he does nothing that pass, not that turn.

but you commanded him to do something...
but he didn't break control so he had to do it...
but he didn't...
<time paradox detected initiate purge procedures>
Moon-Hawk
QUOTE (djinni)
QUOTE (Moon-Hawk @ Jun 8 2007, 11:41 AM)
If he spends the complex action to shake off the control, that would mean he does nothing that pass, not that turn.

but you commanded him to do something...
but he didn't break control so he had to do it...
but he didn't...
<time paradox detected initiate purge procedures>

He's still going to do it. He just hasn't gotten around to it yet. Where's the paradox?
Wiseman
QUOTE
but you commanded him to do something...
but he didn't break control so he had to do it...
but he didn't...
<time paradox detected initiate purge procedures>


Controller - "Bite your shoulder Johnny! Do it" [force 4 control thoughts]

Victim (Failed initial resist, Resisting again after 12 seconds, on his Action Phase)

"Araaagggghhh!, Get out of my head you freak" <Clutches head for whatever fraction of 3 seconds his passes let him act on this turn as a complex action, Begins gnawing on his shoulder on his next action phase/initiative pass>

Interestingly, a character with more initiative passes only gets the same amount of chances [combat turns] to resist AND gets to act [under your control] with his remaining passes on that Combat Turn.

A slow character with only 1 pass would fight you for still just a few millisecs but wouldn't get to act again until a full 3 seconds later.

In saying the victim MAY spend a complex action, he is actively struggling as your spell attempts relaxes slightly and clamps back down every force in turns (its not a constant iron grip)

If you think about it. The intent of the rule is to prevent long term mental manipulation so that you don't get to enslave anyone (as Charm spells in D&D caused all kinds of problems that way). If he does break free you can just cast it again on your next Action Phase anyway.

Edit* Thus the benefit of a higher force spell is the longer duration between resist. Otherwise force means nothing
Jack Kain
QUOTE (Moon-Hawk)
QUOTE (djinni @ Jun 8 2007, 11:55 AM)
QUOTE (Moon-Hawk @ Jun 8 2007, 11:41 AM)
If he spends the complex action to shake off the control, that would mean he does nothing that pass, not that turn.

but you commanded him to do something...
but he didn't break control so he had to do it...
but he didn't...
<time paradox detected initiate purge procedures>

He's still going to do it. He just hasn't gotten around to it yet. Where's the paradox?

The issue is can the mage command the subject not to resist every (force) combat turns by giving them a command to do another complex action during there resist turn.

To me its simple to say the resist overrides the command, like in those films where the mind controlled subject grabs his head and moans as he tries to shake of the control.

Frankly there should have been a line in the spell to make obviously self destructive orders aren't followed, such as shoot yourself in the head or
deek
Exactly!!!

That last line says it all...I thought I read something in the RAW that you would not be albe to cause yourself direct harm...but that clause wasn't in there at all, which IMO, makes the spell overpowered.

You can still harm the target, but it just can't be direct harm to himself...still a powerful spell, but now you take one unbalanced element out of the spell, IMO.
Wiseman
QUOTE
Frankly there should have been a line in the spell to make obviously self destructive orders aren't followed, such as shoot yourself in the head or


I'd allow self-destructive orders, but only because influence specifically states that they get to break out if confronted with the wrongness of a suggestion, and control thoughts says nothing like that. The difference between influence and control thoughts is CT lets you send the impulse to his arm to load and cock the pistol and put it to his head, while influence gives him a suggestion that it was his idea to do it (life just isn't worth living, wait what am I saying..)

Influence is like the low grade of just implant a suggestion. (Your awfully tired..)
Control Actions lets you make do the physical stuff directly (Lay down!)
Control Thoughts makes them think it, total control (Go to sleep).

In all cases though the force of the spell determines how often they get to resist and get back up.

With influence its less drain and they may or may not go to bed depending on the noise, circumstances, and alternatives. (I need coffee!)

With Control Actions its slightly more drain but they'll lay down on the street even though they're wide awake.

With Control Thoughts theres the greatest drain but they'll go to sleep wherever they were standing until they subconciously resist in Force combat turns
Sterling
There's a cute loophole in control actions/mob control that I could see someone trying to spring on a new GM.

It says any action you command them to do is penalized by their willpower. So what if you TOLD them to resist your spell? Well, technically they roll willpower minus willpower (plus counterspelling) to resist. While this might make you chuckle, the rules are pretty clear that only actions the person is resisting (in this case, control actions/mob control relates to physical actions anyway) get the penalty, so I doubt anyone would resist resisting. "No... I won't... give in!! I... won't....let... you... make... me... resist... your... spell!! I... willl... wait, what the frag? I RESIST!!"

I can't really see why players would use control actions/mob control over control thoughts/mob mind. If I were the one throwing the spells, I'd try to have mob mind and mob mood up, to keep people from panicking about being controlled. Control actions/mob control is probably the least subtle of the trio of control spells. Making people angry at someone and then thinking 'we need to restrain that Lone Star officer' is about ten times better than 'Hey, why are we all marching over here and grabbing this cop!? I don't want to do this!! Aaaiiieee!! I'm being compelled by MAGIC!!' I'm sure control actions/mob control has its uses, (especially NPC Lone Star Mages casting it then making people lie on the ground with their arms behind their backs) but if I was rolling a mage I'd rather go with control thoughts/mob mind. Actually, I usually go right to trid spectacle, instead of having the crowd restrain the cop, it's much more fun for the crowd to look like me and let the cop figure out which is the real runner.
Wiseman
QUOTE
I can't really see why players would use control actions/mob control over control thoughts/mob mind.


Only reason I can see is the drain of the spell. The DV for control thoughts to control actions is 2 higher. Not a big deal to a magician with a good magic rating, but some characters only use a little magic and blend it with something else.

I think its awesome they distinguished between types control as individual spells and didn't just say you control the target (but how do you control him exactly)

For instance why have Orgasm spell if you can control actions or thoughts to the same affect? is it just fluff? Nope its specialized control (one type of controlled action) for a lot less drain
Zolhex
slightly side question in past edtions this rule exsisted but I don't see it in this edtion on any mental control spell so now it is ok to tell a target go kill yourself?
Wiseman
Depends which spell exactly but I think so yes.

Influence - "Kill yourself" (Target gets a suicidal impulse and another chance to resist because its a suggestion, not actual control)

Control Actions - "Draw your weapon, point it at your head and pull the trigger" (Targets arm does just that despite what he may think about it)

Control Thoughts - "Shoot yourself in the head" (Target thinks it and does it. No matter how he feels about suicide. Total control)

But to curb abuse I would remind that not everyone is successful in suicide. Due to cyberware like dermal plating, cyberskulls, bone lacing, etc. Actions that would seem to end in death don't necessarily do so. Saying "Kill yourself" with control thoughts leaves some leadway about how and probably isn't specific enough as your requiring the target to think for himself and I would probably allow him to resist since you required him to think about it on some level. (it would be ok as an Influence command though, or rather I'd treat it as one).

For instance you use control thoughts to make a target jump off a building, he takes falling damage but thanks to bone lacing he survives and might not even break a leg (it'd still hurt or he could land on his head)

You could lead players to believe the victim was successful but in reality survives and wants revenge and that might make players want to favor more direct attacks to ensure a death in the future.

Plus, most characters are more resistant to a bullet or physical trauma than magical trauma. For less force, less drain, and more damage you could just blast him. Mental Manipulation is soooooo much better for more creative things that offensive spells just don't cover.
Jaid
i dunno about those AOE mind control spells... they're pretty wonky just because of how shadowrun handles AOE sustained spells. this isn't "dominate person, mass" it's "dominate person, area" for lack of a better way to put it.

that is, if anyone leaves the AOE, the spell stops affecting them. if anyone enters the AOE, the spell starts affecting them (whether you want it to or not). and the AOE can only be moved by the magician spending a complex action to do so. in many ways, the area versions of the mind control spells have hefty drawbacks, and i don't know that i would be as enthusiastic about using them as you might think.

the single target versions, of course, have the opportunity cost of being only able to take out one person per turn, and requiring you take the sustaining penalty for each person separately instead of just tossing a single stunball spell that KOs everything in it's area.
Wiseman
QUOTE
that is, if anyone leaves the AOE, the spell stops affecting them. if anyone enters the AOE, the spell starts affecting them (whether you want it to or not). and the AOE can only be moved by the magician spending a complex action to do so. in many ways, the area versions of the mind control spells have hefty drawbacks, and i don't know that i would be as enthusiastic about using them as you might think.


Wow great point thats easily overlooked. Pages 173 Area Spells, and 174 Ongoing Effects.

Also because of the high drain value, and spellcasting test hits being limited by force. Its not so easy to just dominate anyone for super long periods either.

Example: A force 4 control thoughts at best can get 4 net hits. And a drain of 4 (hopefully stun if you have Magic rating of 4 or higher, we'll assume he has magic 6 and spellcasting 6). The target resists with willpower 3 for a average of 1 hit. Everytime the magician issues a command he uses a simple action (it took him a complex action to cast the control spell so he cannot command him until his NEXT action phase). At this rate the target WILL break free in 16 combat turns (or 48 seconds of RP time, not that long outside combat).

This can mean a decent amount of lost time if the mage went last, though I doubt the controlled (yet uncommanded ganger) would do anything with his turn (as he's waiting for orders). If the ganger wins initiative and for simplicity only has one pass. It might look something like this.

Combat Turn 1
Ganger - Shoots at mage (we'll pretend he's a crappy shot too)
Mage - cast control thoughts force 4 (complex action) 4 hits
Ganger - fails to resist with willpower 3 and 1 net hit
is controlled but not commanded yet.

Combat Turn 2
Ganger - Grabs his head
Mage - commands "shoot at that pedestrian" (simple action)
Mage has another simple action but for simplicity say he ready's a
weapon

Combat Turn 3
Ganger - ready weapon and shoots once at some old lady (2 Simple actions)

Of course this is very simplified but it was the third combat turn before the ganger could comply (and 14 more turns until he breaks free) and the third turn before the mage could cast another spell. Obviously the more IP's the target has the better off you'll be in making use of him (but chances are he'll be going first).

Also the mage would be better off with a force 5 spell than a force 4 (same DV) as it would allow more Spellcasting Test hits (thus lasting longer) and lengthen the number of rounds before the target could try to resist again.

On average:
Force 4 CT (4 hits) vs Willpower 3 Lasts 16 combat turns. DV 4
Force 5 CT (5 hits) vs Willpower 3 lasts 25 combat turns. DV 4




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