 A Mute Generation, New Language Forms |
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 Jun 5 2007, 07:00 PM
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#1
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 511 Joined: 24-March 05 From: On a ledge between Heaven and Hell Member No.: 7,226  |
With the commonality of COMM-Links, the increased use of Iconic symbols in 2070 society, and availability of Biosoft interface devices, I was wondering if a Generation in 2070 would forgo the use of verbal communications in favor of wireless COMM communications.
Why take the time for long term discussion of rebuilding an engine when the 'Instructor' can simply transmit an exploded 3 dimensional diagram of said engine. Then other discussion can take place to explain differences between the various types of items along the same vein as the subject of study, with according diagrams for reference. Would it be possible for a group of individuals in 2070 to find verbal communications slow and antiquated? Instead defaulting to a higher speed 'Universal' Iconic Hieroglyphics. New Hieroglyphics could be designed simply by transferring a picture with the new symbol attached, and then agreed upon by the society as a whole. |
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Jun 5 2007, 08:17 PM
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#2
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,916 Joined: 31-December 06 Member No.: 10,502 |
I don't think a switch to heiroglyphics makes sense.
However I think it would be in flavor for people to communicate purely using their comlinks, and making extensive use of visuals. After all with the extra initiative passes people can just talk faster using comlinks. A meeting that took three hours verbally would take an hour or less in the net. Before it comes up again office buildings still exist. The matrix is insanly insecure. You might was well just give your competition weekly updates on what you're doing. No people still have to trudge to their cubicles, past the RF paint and security, and then sit down and go zombie for a few hours. Frankly I think it presents a very in flavor dystopian dynamic. Rows of cubicles of zoned out people, conference rooms with people around a table with their datajacks pluged into a central conference comlink. All around silence and flourescent lighting. |
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Jun 5 2007, 08:29 PM
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#3
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 834 Joined: 30-June 03 Member No.: 4,832 |
My impression from SR3 was that most people were illiterate, and that icons and heiroglyphs were the primary form of communication. While I think thats what they wanted from SR3, I don't think that they really supported that.
In SR4 it makes even more sense for it to be the case, but I think that they're assuming in SR4 that every one is literate. In fact, I suppose it really wouldn't matter what method you used to communicate, AR tags would translate to what ever language you wanted to read. And any translation software would turn text->Heiroglyphics if the person you were communicating with couldn't actually read. But to you it would still be seamless communication. As for communicating over Comm rather than vocal, I think you're probably right about that. There would still be uses for vocal communication, in the lower echelons of society anyway. |
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Jun 6 2007, 06:00 PM
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#4
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Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
Thread spill is a bad thing. It detracts from the readability of individual topics, makes it impossible for others to follow the original thread that is spilling over and also leads to bad blood as people end up unable to separate an argument from the poster. If you want to carry on arguing about offices, I'm still waiting in the Offices thread for anyone to dispute my point with actual RAW. Now on the subject of this actual thread. I don't see verbal language going away but I do see a very large role for visual imagery to be woven in. I think this would be very handy in a lot of ways, especially for purposes of debate and conveying complex arguments. Example - you know how in a forum argument one person will list five or six reasons in favour of something and then the respondant attacks two of the weaker ones and ignoring the four. others. Suppose someone when setting out an argument accompanies it by a visual image that remains there, perhaps as a wall with separate blobs of the wall representing the different points. Even perhaps blobs in proportion to how significant they were to the argument. Touch a blob and up pops the point in detail. The other person's attack on two points is visually represented so the degree to which the argument is demolished can be seen. This is an example of something that would take root in the business world, where news ways of decision making can really take off. The various parties in a business meeting create such an AR/VR diagram and there's a negotiation period over the proportionality of various factors and then a process of constructive argument begins. This is just an example off the top of my head of how VR and AR would blend into language, supplementing and supporting the reasoning process with visual representation. I see these things originating in academia, flourishing in business and finally coming down to both schools and general society. I don't see it replacing language in most scenarios however, though I make no distinction between spoken and written language in this case. The two would be interchangeable depending on location and social context. -Khadim. |
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Jun 6 2007, 06:56 PM
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#5
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,916 Joined: 31-December 06 Member No.: 10,502 |
Yeah bad phrasing on my part, I was trying to avoid opening up an old topic, but should have realized I was asking for the opposit. I should have just given the idea of speechless officespaces.
Anyway is what knasser said what the OP meant my heiroglyphs? I consider them quite different. I imagine all sorts of visualizations are in use in order to manage information. |
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Jun 6 2007, 07:13 PM
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#6
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 127 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Sweden Member No.: 1,313 |
You'd learn speech first from your parents, learn symbolic language and then you learn how to operate a comlink. So maybe there's a bunch of people who thinks it's just plain easier to communicate via comlink, and never does talk - but they know how to speak even if it would be... slurred, unpracticed or whatever. Sure.
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Jun 6 2007, 07:41 PM
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#7
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Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
Oh, I'm afraid that I wandered away from the issue of hieroglyphics for a moment there into the broader subject of what visual supplement to words could mean generally. Hieroglyphics are just a primitive form of letters. I suspect the original poster meant icons or pictograms, where the image portrays the thing it represents. Modern alphabets are far superior. With just 26 letters in the English alphabet (more in the arabic one), you can join them together in sequences that makes a never ending list of available symbols called "words." Not only that, but using some simple(ish) rules each word contains within itself instructions for how it should be pronounced. It can even convey hints at it's meaning. You might not know the difference between psychology and psychiatry, but you can make educated guesses as to their meaning from their relationship to other words. "iatry" is usally some form of treatment. "ology" is a science or study. And psyche we've learnt is to do with the mind, even if we don't speak greek. Compare that to pictures of people looking at heads. Actually, the last example was pictography, where the image has a relationship to the meaning. Hieroglyphics, as noted, are just less evolved letters. I can see a lot of use made of icons / pictograms in SR2070, but not really supplanting language for anything sophisticated that you want to communicate. |
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Jun 6 2007, 09:28 PM
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#8
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,159 Joined: 12-April 07 From: Ork Underground Member No.: 11,440 |
Hmm wonder what the born "deaf" and "mute" could use if they choose not to have cyber implants installed? Specially if they were born to parents who have the same condition?
Gallaudet University in 2070, very interesting place I would think, cybered versus non cybered..... :) WMS |
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Jun 7 2007, 01:46 AM
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#9
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 511 Joined: 24-March 05 From: On a ledge between Heaven and Hell Member No.: 7,226 |
So far the discussion has been interesting. Wish I could add more.
I should link this.
More than not.
Amusing, Think I can use this. A possible outcome of overuse of Matrix communication. Although it appears to stray a bit from subject.
Was wondering if an elitist group of people could form where they decide to only communicate by COMM-Link because they feel that other methods are vastly inferior,and refuse to lower themselves to do it. Creating their own language as they do so.
Esperanto eat you heart out. |
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Jun 7 2007, 01:48 AM
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#10
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 511 Joined: 24-March 05 From: On a ledge between Heaven and Hell Member No.: 7,226 |
So compleatly off subject but found it on a search.
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Jun 7 2007, 02:34 PM
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#11
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 941 Joined: 25-January 07 Member No.: 10,765 |
I think a lot of communications over Commlinks is still verbal, and I seriously doubt 'extra passes' really means people talk 'faster'.
The verbal communication, however, becomes 'enhanced' by the visual and iconographic support, along with whatever other AR signals you send out to support your dialog. One could surmise that conversations become richer with these additions, but then you wind up with the breakdown of communications between heavy Comm users and light or non-comm users. Among Comm users, poetry of words is almost unheard of. You want to evoke a feeling? Send out a weak Sim signal of that feeling. Want to evoke the scent of flowers? Send it. They would actually find non-comm communication to be painfully limited, from their point of view, and would eventually find it difficult to communicate almost any complex concept without recourse to their AR library. It's not to dissimilar to the idea that an 'alien' species that uses extensive body langauge or scent markers to support their verbal communications would have trouble talking to a species that doesn't. You can only translate so much The SR world is still working its way there, probably. Technomancers and professional 'hackers' and other codeslingers who prefer dealing with things via commlink are slowly building up a communal 'Sim' language to augment the already decendent 'text speak' and jargon they've been using for decades. Of course, I am of the mind that net based communications might actually increase literacy, at least for a while. Text is fairly universal compared to icons and is a lot more flexible. While the text itself may become 'debased' by some standards, it still persists. Language evolves to support the needs of its users, and written communication is just a form of language. |
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Jun 7 2007, 07:26 PM
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#12
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=16638
also, what impacts will the now apparently perfect translation software have? given that it can translate between spoken languages without errors, it should be trivial to do text to speech or speech to text. hell, i can see the old geezer with a hand held text scanner ;) |
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Jun 8 2007, 01:34 AM
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#13
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 511 Joined: 24-March 05 From: On a ledge between Heaven and Hell Member No.: 7,226 |
It figures this has already been discussed before. Not exactly sure about the everything being automatically translatable. Why else would they sell Lingua-Softs. We say that one language must be known to the character for the Lingua-Soft to work. So that Italian to German program does you no good if you don't speak either. If a group with a secret language decides not allow a creation of such a Lingua-Soft then I can't see anyone outside the group knowing it. |
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Jun 8 2007, 02:36 AM
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#14
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
Well i was mostly thinking that in a world that appears to be able to have software translate between two spoken languages, it should be simple to make a cheap device that can read text and spit it out as spoken words. That way one may not be literate but still get by.
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Jun 8 2007, 02:56 AM
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#15
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 511 Joined: 24-March 05 From: On a ledge between Heaven and Hell Member No.: 7,226 |
no problems there.
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Jun 8 2007, 02:08 PM
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#16
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Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
This thread reminds me of that commercial where the mom is arguing with her daughter about her text messaging fees, and the girl is speaking in "text" (subtitled for the audience) but the mom understands her perfectly.
For those of you who haven't seen it. |
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Jun 8 2007, 04:02 PM
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#17
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
looks like youtube has a problem right now but ill take a look later.
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