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> Trolls and their guns
Omae
post Jun 8 2007, 12:30 AM
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I know there isn't rule for this yet in 4th edition, but should trolls get more capacity of bullets, if they modified their grip? Since most weapon have magazines to be inserted there.

Any opinions?
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Lagomorph
post Jun 8 2007, 12:38 AM
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I haven't heard of any one doing that rule, but if you want to, go for it. I would maybe give them +5 bullets for hand guns, or maybe a multiply by 1.25 or something.

Edit: an increase in ammo capacity should only affect hand guns and machine pistols though. Everything else I believe uses a magazine that is not in the grip.
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lunchbox311
post Jun 8 2007, 12:42 AM
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Honestly Trolls would use larger weapons. They have the bulk to handle a larger firearm and something that is pistol sized for them would be almost rifle sized (at least SMG sized) for a human equivalent.

The game tries to keep a strict sense of balance for the firearms so that one race is not overly nasty vs. another.

Trolls would probably have some nice natural recoil compensation too. Especially if they were using the same caliber of ammunition as us weak humans do.


I see no problem with extra capacity in a firearm for them if they use the same size weapon. Say 30-50% more.

On a similar note then... what kind of rules would people suggest for natural recoil compensation of firearms?
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Lagomorph
post Jun 8 2007, 12:45 AM
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In SR3, the rule was 1RC per 6 points of STR. Since the scale of attributes between SR3 and SR4 is the same, the rule would be pretty applicable.
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Wiseman
post Jun 8 2007, 12:54 AM
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Grip really has nothing to do with it as guns aren't sized by metatype or then you have to keep track of all kinds of things. If you allow troll guns (and probably a penalty to other metas using a troll designed weapon) you'd have to penalize trolls for using non-troll guns. Then theres troll cars and troll escalators and troll sized happy meals. Honestly though, thats microgaming.

Troll recoil compensation? You'd have to balance the other metas and give them all something too, hmmm, elves are nimble, they get reaction enhancement, and dwarves are good sharpshooters, maybe a natural smartlink bonus. Nothing stops you but you shouldn't favor or modify one meta without being equal to the others.

Most clips involve springs to keep a constant pressure on the ammo so it feeds into the chamber correctly, so lengthening the clip requires other modifications to ensure the gun reloads the next round correctly.

All being said though, ammo types, weapon calibers, and clips all evolved because someone kept tinkering with things. I'd say you'd need the armorer skill for build and repair and firearm design knowledge skill wouldn't hurt either.

Otherwise I'd impose a chance the weapon would jam more easily (such as 2 in 6 chance each time the weapon is fired) in the very least. So its best not to mess around unless with stuff unless you know what your doing.
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thorr
post Jun 8 2007, 01:42 AM
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QUOTE (Wiseman)
Grip really has nothing to do with it as guns aren't sized by metatype or then you have to keep track of all kinds of things. If you allow troll guns (and probably a penalty to other metas using a troll designed weapon) you'd have to penalize trolls for using non-troll guns. Then theres troll cars and troll escalators and troll sized happy meals. Honestly though, thats microgaming.

Troll recoil compensation? You'd have to balance the other metas and give them all something too, hmmm, elves are nimble, they get reaction enhancement, and dwarves are good sharpshooters, maybe a natural smartlink bonus. Nothing stops you but you shouldn't favor or modify one meta without being equal to the others.

Most clips involve springs to keep a constant pressure on the ammo so it feeds into the chamber correctly, so lengthening the clip requires other modifications to ensure the gun reloads the next round correctly.

All being said though, ammo types, weapon calibers, and clips all evolved because someone kept tinkering with things. I'd say you'd need the armorer skill for build and repair and firearm design knowledge skill wouldn't hurt either.

Otherwise I'd impose a chance the weapon would jam more easily (such as 2 in 6 chance each time the weapon is fired) in the very least. So its best not to mess around unless with stuff unless you know what your doing.

ya but, its a valid point. i'm orc sized and most normal sized things -including pistols- are almost too small. troll sized, forget it. everything would have to be specially sized to them.
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Jaid
post Jun 8 2007, 02:06 AM
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actually, there *are* troll and dwarf sized guns. ruleswise, the only official difference is that they are slightly more expensive, and if you're really the wrong size, it's hard to use.
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kigmatzomat
post Jun 8 2007, 02:39 AM
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Back in Sr1, we had a house rule that, vaguely distorted by many years and rules variations, states that every "size class" (dwarf, human/elf/orc, troll) different gets a -2 usage penalty and a concealment modifier of +/-2. Dwarves get penalties, Trolls get bonuses.

Of course, we also said that a regular light pistol was a troll hide-out and that dwarves were limited to carbines and SMGs
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Wiseman
post Jun 8 2007, 02:49 AM
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QUOTE
actually, there *are* troll and dwarf sized guns. ruleswise, the only official difference is that they are slightly more expensive, and if you're really the wrong size, it's hard to use


My bad, your absolutely correct about sizing. I've been pretty lenient about enforcing it as it can be a big pain to keep track of (and techniquely I should let players sell dwarf/troll equipment at a higher rate)

My point was more that you don't want to get to carried away by resizing everything all the time and it does state the GM determines when it comes into play (usually in obvious or gross examples).

In almost a year of game i've applied the -2 penalty once on a rifle and I didn't allow an elf to use a dwarfs camo suit. I assume most cars adjust for varying heights like power seats and such so I don't go as far as vehicles.
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Demon_Bob
post Jun 8 2007, 03:03 AM
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QUOTE (Omae)
I know there isn't rule for this yet in 4th edition, but should trolls get more capacity of bullets, if they modified their grip? Since most weapon have magazines to be inserted there.

Any opinions?

Then clips would have to be Troll modified.

I see Troll/Dwarf modifications as the minimum required measures to allow larger or smaller person to use a device comfortably.
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djinni
post Jun 8 2007, 03:39 AM
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QUOTE (Wiseman @ Jun 7 2007, 09:49 PM)
In almost a year of game i've applied the -2 penalty once on a rifle and I didn't allow an elf to use a dwarfs camo suit. I assume most cars adjust for varying heights like power seats and such so I don't go as far as vehicles.

I just made a troll character and I'm looking forward to his size being an issue.
think about it, the suspension system in your car isn't set to handle an extra 900 pounds of troll.
I'm all for troll sized weapons doing more damage, holding more ammo...
Troll sized melee, or projectile weapons in particular, more mass means more energy. but from a game balance standpoint....I tend not to bring it up cuz "they" can have more trolls than us...
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Omae
post Jun 8 2007, 04:59 AM
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IMO, I do agree w/ djinni, under only in certain condition.
For Troll character, they have to pay higher price for the life style and also raised in price and availability of almost all items.
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Wiseman
post Jun 8 2007, 03:27 PM
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QUOTE
I just made a troll character and I'm looking forward to his size being an issue.
think about it, the suspension system in your car isn't set to handle an extra 900 pounds of troll.
I'm all for troll sized weapons doing more damage, holding more ammo...
Troll sized melee, or projectile weapons in particular, more mass means more energy. but from a game balance standpoint....I tend not to bring it up cuz "they" can have more trolls than us...


fair enough, it is a good RP aspect and i'm probably not doing it justice. But when guys start saying.

I'm a troll, my guns bigger, can it hold more ammo? it has a longer clip.
Can it shoot farther? the barrels longer.
It's wider too, can I have bigger bullets?

I tend to get a little burned out because my focus is the plot, the fun, the intrigue, well..the game.

Usually they (players) don't consider that to do these things means dwarfs get less of them all by the inverse. Which amounts to a nerf to dwarves that I don't see intended. Next thing I know everyone is a troll or is modifying "troll guns" for their own use.

"I'm a dwarf but I got cyber arms and a cybertorso with troll hands so I can use troll weapons too now."

"Yes its a GMC Bulldog Step-Van but I got it troll-sized so I could fit the weswind 3k inside and my drone shop, it has double the body too right?"

I like it as a game characteristic and the -2 modifier is more than reasonable, but there just has to be some kind of limits other than redoing the whole book of equipment in troll and dwarf statistics.



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Moon-Hawk
post Jun 8 2007, 03:32 PM
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It's 3rd edition, but I think it was Cannon Companion had rules for Trolls firing two-handed weapons like assault rifles and shotguns in one hand. You know what the modifier was? +0 TN, IIRC.
Take off the stock (nasty recoil, which tends to even out with the extra point they got from strength), shorten the barrel (lose some range), and suddenly they have a really big "troll heavy pistol"
It was a pretty darn elegant solution.
My prediction is, look for a repeat in Arsenal.
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Wiseman
post Jun 8 2007, 03:38 PM
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QUOTE
It's 3rd edition, but I think it was Cannon Companion had rules for Trolls firing two-handed weapons like assault rifles and shotguns in one hand. You know what the modifier was? +0 TN, IIRC.
Take off the stock (nasty recoil, which tends to even out with the extra point they got from strength), shorten the barrel (lose some range), and suddenly they have a really big "troll heavy pistol"
It was a pretty darn elegant solution.
My prediction is, look for a repeat in Arsenal


That'd work, or they could publish the dwarf/troll equipment statistics. No descriptions, just different equipment attributes. I'd game that anytime, I'm just to lazy to do it all and balance it myself.
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Abstruse
post Jun 8 2007, 03:49 PM
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The difference between a troll/dwarf gun and a "normal" gun are all after-market and more or less cosmetic. That means the trigger guard is enlarged/shrunk and extra "padding" is added or removed from the grip. If you want an extended clip, the rules for it in 3rd Ed are in the Canon Companion and I would assume will be in Arsenal.

The Abstruse One
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2bit
post Jun 8 2007, 03:55 PM
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I've been going by this: natural recoil compensation = (STR-4)/2 (rounded up) . I don't remember what edition that's from. . .
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Wiseman
post Jun 8 2007, 04:08 PM
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QUOTE
The difference between a troll/dwarf gun and a "normal" gun are all after-market and more or less cosmetic. That means the trigger guard is enlarged/shrunk and extra "padding" is added or removed from the grip. If you want an extended clip, the rules for it in 3rd Ed are in the Canon Companion and I would assume will be in Arsenal.

The Abstruse One


Thats probably the middle ground I'll settle on (and more likely the truth).

To date I've been guilty of letting the sizing rules slip by so thats got to change. But keeping it "cosmetic" (great term that players get quickly) keeps it from being overdone without maybe a special circumstance or two when its fun and fitting (no sex toy jokes now).
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djinni
post Jun 8 2007, 04:10 PM
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QUOTE (2bit)
I've been going by this: natural recoil compensation = (STR-4)/2 (rounded up) . I don't remember what edition that's from. . .

Abstruse: I was going to explain that to in a more complicated way though...you beat me to it.
2bit, I'd use a straight Str/4 instead of -4)/2 so the troll with strength 15 has 3 points and the human with strength 4 has 1. not too much different and enough to say "hey yer a strong fragger." but also not enough to completely compensate a fully automatic weapon.
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kigmatzomat
post Jun 8 2007, 06:54 PM
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QUOTE (Wiseman)

That'd work, or they could publish the dwarf/troll equipment statistics. No descriptions, just different equipment attributes. I'd game that anytime, I'm just to lazy to do it all and balance it myself.

Ehh, in SR4 it's not too bad. Barrel length does affect velocity/energy up to a point.

Troll pistols will have longer barrels to avoid becoming a lemon-squeezer. So just bump up the DV for each weapon class by one tick. Troll SMGs will be on par with carbines, which by the RAW is where the increase in barrel length begins to have diminishing returns, so just increase the range. At the rifle category there isn't much difference without a total weapon redesign.

Magazines probably should be increased for pistols plus there should be some bonus to concealability for trolls.

Dwarves really shouldn't have that much of an issue with pistols or SMGs, if their proportions are what I remember (SR1 - SR4, things can get muddled). Their arms are shorter but their hands IIRC are about the same size as a human. Rifles and the like will be more of a problem and it is simply solved by limiting dwarves to carbines (or -1DV/+1AP for modified assault rifles). the exception are sniper rifles, which are almost exclusively used prone. Manuevering a sniper rifle will be a p.i.t.a. but the usage should be fine.
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Sterling
post Jun 8 2007, 07:37 PM
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Since SR4 multiplied all SR3 stats by 2/3rds, the old rule in Cannon companion wouldn't work as well. No recoil compensation for strength 1-5, one for 6-11, two points for 12-18, and three for 19+. Ehh, I'd go with a RC of STR/4, personally... maybe even Str/3 -1? That'd give you no RC for strength 1-3, one for 4-6, two for 7-9, three for 10-12... hmm... I'll think about that one.

The burst fire and auto-fire rules have really made those firing modes worthwhile, but the penalties for recoil make them a lot less effective unless you're walking around with your LMG or assault rifle in a freaking gyromount.

The problem I have with the whole 'troll weapons should hold more, do more damage, etc' is that it does end up starting a logical progression that seems to nerf dwarves. You can argue with me, but elves, humans, and orks are roughly the same size, so weapon issues don't really exist for those three races. But the dwarf has a rougher time, even though they're not too far off human scale in terms of upper body proportion. But the second you let the trolls have heavier guns, better ammo, etc, you then start wondering 'well, why can't the troll cyberarms have more capacity? Why don't troll cybereyes have more capacity too?' and then there's a huge balance issue that becomes a headache.

Then, the next step is 'why can't a troll conceal a heavy pistol as if it was a light pistol? Size wise, the troll has more area and would be able to conceal a SMG like it was a heavy pistol, etc.' And then you wonder why the dwarf can hide his heavy pistol as well as a human.

I'm not saying you can't do it differently, it's your game and your house rules. But the second you make the troll gear better, people WILL start getting troll-sized cyberhands to use troll guns, or modifying troll pistols to be two handed weapons... or even having crazy dwarves with cybertorsos and troll-sized cyberlimbs (which is a great NPC* to have running around, because it's a totally goofy concept... until you make troll stuff more desirable).

By making strength affect recoil compensation, you have already handed a big enough perk to the trolls. By allowing them to one hand assault rifles, etc, you've given trolls another big perk.

*My dwarf NPC with troll cyberlimbs also had the extendable limb option in the legs. He was just so sick of being short, he snapped (big time) and got the troll arms and legs installed instead. Everyone calls him 'Droll' and he's just manic about being as tall as he is now. Too bad he overpaid for the surgery, that Doc really shortchanged him. But it was a small price to pay, overall. And it was a tall order to fill...
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Jack Kain
post Jun 8 2007, 07:41 PM
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Here's the dwarf answer.

A dwarf may be shorter then a human but they are far stockier. With there broad shoulders as if they wore football pads they can conceal items just as well as humans can.

But really Sterling your right on the money, Its a can of worms that should be sealed and fired out of a cannon.. into the sun.
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WhiskeyMac
post Jun 9 2007, 03:27 AM
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Actually Trolls and Dwarves would both receive benefits if you used Strength for Recoil purposes. Dwarves start with a 3 in STR and it would only cost 10BP to get a -1 Recoil modifier if we used STR/4 for a recoil modifier.

I'm in the camp that dwarf/troll modifications to weapons happen post-production. Probably only grip and trigger guard mods. I can understand more ammo for troll guns but not better damage.
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kigmatzomat
post Jun 9 2007, 02:29 PM
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Depends on if they add a longer barrel. Short barreled weapons (<15") don't take full advantage of the powder in the round. Pistol ammunition gets a measurable speed boost (and significant energy boost) in a SMG or rifle. Given that trolls are 40% larger, they should be able to handle pistols with equivalently larger barrels. Longer, really, since their grips will increase in size without an equivalent increase in chambering mechanism.

Dwarven weapons should have a cap at the higher end because they will have trouble maneuvering long barreled weapons.
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Kazum
post Jun 9 2007, 04:20 PM
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i would give 1 RC per 6 Points. Maybe this would be an advantage for trolls, but they have a "big" disadvantage as well... They are plain "BIG", what gives em trouble in different situations..
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