I know there isn't rule for this yet in 4th edition, but should trolls get more capacity of bullets, if they modified their grip? Since most weapon have magazines to be inserted there.

Any opinions?

I haven't heard of any one doing that rule, but if you want to, go for it. I would maybe give them +5 bullets for hand guns, or maybe a multiply by 1.25 or something.

Edit: an increase in ammo capacity should only affect hand guns and machine pistols though. Everything else I believe uses a magazine that is not in the grip.

Honestly Trolls would use larger weapons. They have the bulk to handle a larger firearm and something that is pistol sized for them would be almost rifle sized (at least SMG sized) for a human equivalent.

The game tries to keep a strict sense of balance for the firearms so that one race is not overly nasty vs. another.

Trolls would probably have some nice natural recoil compensation too. Especially if they were using the same caliber of ammunition as us weak humans do.


I see no problem with extra capacity in a firearm for them if they use the same size weapon. Say 30-50% more.

On a similar note then... what kind of rules would people suggest for natural recoil compensation of firearms?

In SR3, the rule was 1RC per 6 points of STR. Since the scale of attributes between SR3 and SR4 is the same, the rule would be pretty applicable.

Grip really has nothing to do with it as guns aren't sized by metatype or then you have to keep track of all kinds of things. If you allow troll guns (and probably a penalty to other metas using a troll designed weapon) you'd have to penalize trolls for using non-troll guns. Then theres troll cars and troll escalators and troll sized happy meals. Honestly though, thats microgaming.

Troll recoil compensation? You'd have to balance the other metas and give them all something too, hmmm, elves are nimble, they get reaction enhancement, and dwarves are good sharpshooters, maybe a natural smartlink bonus. Nothing stops you but you shouldn't favor or modify one meta without being equal to the others.

Most clips involve springs to keep a constant pressure on the ammo so it feeds into the chamber correctly, so lengthening the clip requires other modifications to ensure the gun reloads the next round correctly.

All being said though, ammo types, weapon calibers, and clips all evolved because someone kept tinkering with things. I'd say you'd need the armorer skill for build and repair and firearm design knowledge skill wouldn't hurt either.

Otherwise I'd impose a chance the weapon would jam more easily (such as 2 in 6 chance each time the weapon is fired) in the very least. So its best not to mess around unless with stuff unless you know what your doing.

actually, there *are* troll and dwarf sized guns. ruleswise, the only official difference is that they are slightly more expensive, and if you're really the wrong size, it's hard to use.

Back in Sr1, we had a house rule that, vaguely distorted by many years and rules variations, states that every "size class" (dwarf, human/elf/orc, troll) different gets a -2 usage penalty and a concealment modifier of +/-2. Dwarves get penalties, Trolls get bonuses.

Of course, we also said that a regular light pistol was a troll hide-out and that dwarves were limited to carbines and SMGs

IMO, I do agree w/ djinni, under only in certain condition.
For Troll character, they have to pay higher price for the life style and also raised in price and availability of almost all items.

It's 3rd edition, but I think it was Cannon Companion had rules for Trolls firing two-handed weapons like assault rifles and shotguns in one hand. You know what the modifier was? +0 TN, IIRC.
Take off the stock (nasty recoil, which tends to even out with the extra point they got from strength), shorten the barrel (lose some range), and suddenly they have a really big "troll heavy pistol"
It was a pretty darn elegant solution.
My prediction is, look for a repeat in Arsenal.

The difference between a troll/dwarf gun and a "normal" gun are all after-market and more or less cosmetic. That means the trigger guard is enlarged/shrunk and extra "padding" is added or removed from the grip. If you want an extended clip, the rules for it in 3rd Ed are in the Canon Companion and I would assume will be in Arsenal.

The Abstruse One

I've been going by this: natural recoil compensation = (STR-4)/2 (rounded up) . I don't remember what edition that's from. . .

Since SR4 multiplied all SR3 stats by 2/3rds, the old rule in Cannon companion wouldn't work as well. No recoil compensation for strength 1-5, one for 6-11, two points for 12-18, and three for 19+. Ehh, I'd go with a RC of STR/4, personally... maybe even Str/3 -1? That'd give you no RC for strength 1-3, one for 4-6, two for 7-9, three for 10-12... hmm... I'll think about that one.

The burst fire and auto-fire rules have really made those firing modes worthwhile, but the penalties for recoil make them a lot less effective unless you're walking around with your LMG or assault rifle in a freaking gyromount.

The problem I have with the whole 'troll weapons should hold more, do more damage, etc' is that it does end up starting a logical progression that seems to nerf dwarves. You can argue with me, but elves, humans, and orks are roughly the same size, so weapon issues don't really exist for those three races. But the dwarf has a rougher time, even though they're not too far off human scale in terms of upper body proportion. But the second you let the trolls have heavier guns, better ammo, etc, you then start wondering 'well, why can't the troll cyberarms have more capacity? Why don't troll cybereyes have more capacity too?' and then there's a huge balance issue that becomes a headache.

Then, the next step is 'why can't a troll conceal a heavy pistol as if it was a light pistol? Size wise, the troll has more area and would be able to conceal a SMG like it was a heavy pistol, etc.' And then you wonder why the dwarf can hide his heavy pistol as well as a human.

I'm not saying you can't do it differently, it's your game and your house rules. But the second you make the troll gear better, people WILL start getting troll-sized cyberhands to use troll guns, or modifying troll pistols to be two handed weapons... or even having crazy dwarves with cybertorsos and troll-sized cyberlimbs (which is a great NPC* to have running around, because it's a totally goofy concept... until you make troll stuff more desirable).

By making strength affect recoil compensation, you have already handed a big enough perk to the trolls. By allowing them to one hand assault rifles, etc, you've given trolls another big perk.

*My dwarf NPC with troll cyberlimbs also had the extendable limb option in the legs. He was just so sick of being short, he snapped (big time) and got the troll arms and legs installed instead. Everyone calls him 'Droll' and he's just manic about being as tall as he is now. Too bad he overpaid for the surgery, that Doc really shortchanged him. But it was a small price to pay, overall. And it was a tall order to fill...

Here's the dwarf answer.

A dwarf may be shorter then a human but they are far stockier. With there broad shoulders as if they wore football pads they can conceal items just as well as humans can.

But really Sterling your right on the money, Its a can of worms that should be sealed and fired out of a cannon.. into the sun.

Actually Trolls and Dwarves would both receive benefits if you used Strength for Recoil purposes. Dwarves start with a 3 in STR and it would only cost 10BP to get a -1 Recoil modifier if we used STR/4 for a recoil modifier.

I'm in the camp that dwarf/troll modifications to weapons happen post-production. Probably only grip and trigger guard mods. I can understand more ammo for troll guns but not better damage.

Depends on if they add a longer barrel. Short barreled weapons (<15") don't take full advantage of the powder in the round. Pistol ammunition gets a measurable speed boost (and significant energy boost) in a SMG or rifle. Given that trolls are 40% larger, they should be able to handle pistols with equivalently larger barrels. Longer, really, since their grips will increase in size without an equivalent increase in chambering mechanism.

Dwarven weapons should have a cap at the higher end because they will have trouble maneuvering long barreled weapons.

i would give 1 RC per 6 Points. Maybe this would be an advantage for trolls, but they have a "big" disadvantage as well... They are plain "BIG", what gives em trouble in different situations..

Think of it this way... a troll AR is really a PC.

If you give natural RC, it just tends to work out that way. Why buy a "really big carbine", when you can buy a HMG and fire it from the hip?

I don't see the point in adding DV for "troll sized". Yeah, you might add an aftermarket longer barrel, but it's still the same cartridge. If it's a bigger, custom cartridge, then why not just buy the next size up weapon and use it normally?

The only "troll-sized" part of a weapon should be the ergonomics. Everything else, including RC, should be boosted by stats, not size.

How about RC for body too?

If Str-based RC represents muscling the weapon back on target, BOD based RC would represent having the mass to not be knocked off target as much to begin with.

This would be mainly for natural body, not including the protective body enhancers like dermal plating, etc. I don't know any BOD mods that significantly add mass. Bone mods maybe.

I came up with this for 3rd ed. Somebody can convert it if they want to.

Troll Weapon Rules - Super Size it please!
by Garrowolf

According to the standard rules, any weapon can be up sized for Trolls at a percentage of the base cost of the weapon. The issue is left at that. Unfortunately, any real consideration shows that idea to be quite absurd. Let us take a more silly consequence of this rule - Hold out pistols.
The point of a Hold Out Pistol is loss of impact at the exchange of concealability. Now we super size it for Trolls. There goes concealability. We get a huge handle with a tiny round. The weapon can't be manipulated by the Troll sized hands well even if it has a Troll sized trigger. Forget trying to load the bullets. Trolls have huge hands and reduced tactile sensitivity (a logical result of natural dermal armor). It would be like one of us trying to load a .22 with Space Suit gloves on. Okay so we have a clumsy weapon to be used in a life or death situation. Even someone with Troll intelligence will not likely own them. Therefore we have no market so no production. The same argument exists for light pistols.
Now let's think about this from an armorer's point of view. Here we have a limited market with unusual conditions but paying customers nonetheless and they are restricted in their purchase choices. Instead of modifying existing frames for thousands of guns it would be smarter to design a series of guns with Trolls in mind. It would be much more cost effective and it would please the customers more.
Okay so what is the differences in making a gun for a Troll then for a Human. Size and weight are the biggest factors. These have always been sticking points for armorers as they try and give as much bang for the buck but not weigh down the weapon so that it drags the aim or tires the user. This limiting factor opens up considerably for Troll weapons. This leads to caliber. Now you could build a pistol with each of the available calibers and let a bunch of Trolls come in a choose them. How often do you think the lower calibers would be picked? So we can ignore all of the smallest calibers from the beginning. Then we have to consider Troll strength. We can safely ignore any lighter and weaker metals and plastics. These things would have to be sturdy and have some punch.

Firearm Design and Customization rules changes

There are a complete set of Troll base firearms frames. The Metahuman Design option is dropped completely. Dwarves have no trouble holding standard weapons because they have larger hands for their size. All Troll firearm frames come with Melee Hardening and Barrel Extension automatically. They have increased power to reflect larger rounds being used. They also have larger standard clips. They FCU is larger to reflect the greater amount of space available. The Weight increase reflects the heavier metals used and the heavier balance and barrel needed for Troll hands. I have separated the automatic from the revolver because Trolls have developed an affinity to huge bore revolvers that are different enough to warrant a different frame listing


Troll Automatic Pistol Frame
Power - 9
Damage Level - S
Mode - SA
Concealability - 3
Weight - 5
Ammo Cap - 20
Ammo Load - Clip
Mounts - Barrel, Top, and Under
FCU - 2.5
DPV - 200

Troll Revolver Frame
Power - 11
Damage Level - S
Mode - SA
Concealability - 3
Weight - 5
Ammo Cap - 8
Ammo Load - Cylinder
Mounts - Top, and Under
FCU - 1
DPV - 180

Troll SMG Frame
Power - 7
Damage Level - S
Mode - SA/BF
Concealability - 3
Weight - 5
Ammo Cap - 40
Ammo Load - Clip
Mounts - Barrel, Top, and Under
FCU - 2
DPV - 180

Troll Shotgun Frame
Power - 9
Damage Level - S
Mode - SA
Concealability - 2
Weight - 5
Ammo Cap - 15
Ammo Load - Clip
Mounts - Barrel, Top, and Under
FCU - 2.5
DPV - 210

Troll Assault Rifle Frame
Power - 9
Damage Level - S
Mode - SA/BF/FA
Concealability - 1
Weight - 8
Ammo Cap - 60
Ammo Load - Clip
Mounts - Barrel, Top, and Under
FCU - 3.5
DPV - 300

Heavy Weapons

Trolls can use all non vehicle mounted weapons as portable. They can be modified for their hands and with hip braces and straps.


Troll Melee Weapons

Trolls have long discovered that it is fairly easy for them to pick up a large post or part of a car and bash their enemies. Sometimes the improvised weapon can't put up with their activities though. A long lost skill was resurrected to answer the need for heavy Troll melee weapons. Troll weapons tend to be very heavy and thick, many able to go right through a small vehicle. They don't go for the standard polearm design of a pole and a blade at the end because they end up in to close a range to use the blade too quickly. They use arms that are similar to bat'telhs and daiklaives and many fantasy designs that before now noone would be able to wield. The Troll Bat'telh is basically a weapon with a long bladed edge that is wielded similar to a Klingon Bat'telh no matter the specifics of the shape. The Daiklaives are huge oddly shaped swords that are wielded partially like swords and partially like axes. There is no chance to conceal either one. Only Trolls can wield Troll Melee Weapons. These weapons are not usually of the highest quality but they are made of modern alloys and are tough as shit. Parry is not an option unless you are augmented or an Ork or another Troll. Most strikes are likely to cause knockback. The rest just break you where you are. These weapons also tend to have an axe like edge to them as a sharper edge would not hold or work as well on the large metal objects they tend to hit with them.

Troll Bat'telh
Reach 2
Damage (STR + 2)D
Weight 60
Cost 900¥

Troll Daiklaive
Reach 3
Damage (STR + 3)D
Weight 60
Cost 900¥

Troll Axe
Reach 3
Damage (STR + 1)D
Weight 60
Cost 800¥