About pools outside the combat, Are they used? Options

[Traks]

So, I admit that I am not too knowledgeable of Shadowrun rules.
Although I am doing my best to learn them :)
Now, a question. Do pools get used outside the combat, on mundane tasks?
Or you just use skill in question (with complementary skills, if applicable)?

If second, another question arises:
Then why you should learn Negotiations if you can use Charisma?
You can surely use those points elsewhere and default to Charisma everywhere in social skills. It will have higher difficulty rating (+4?) but generally it is worth it.
And if you have no negotiations but have psychology, can you use complementary skills to help it? (I remember reading somewhere that answer is NO).

[mfb]

define 'mundane tasks'. if you're talking about the shooting range? yeah, you get cp. doing the dishes, not so much.

as for the second question, that +4 is going to suck when you run into someone who doesn't default.

[Traks]

[Lilt]

It is possible to default to charisma. I once had an idea for an elf character with a high charisma who took all of the edges that had -ve TN mods on social tests (good reputation 2, good looking and knows it, and friendly face) meaning he could remove some of that +4 at GM's disgression.

Also; their TN remains whatever you are rolling to oppose, which can be as high as charisma 10 for a starting elf. Versus a skill 6 character, you'd have the same TN before you consider any edges and you'd be rolling 4 more dice than them (even 6 dice if you go the tailored pheremones way).

Anyway: Enough Munchkinism on my part.

About your last question; AFAIK; yes you could use a complementary skill to aid a roll which you are defaulting to another skill.

[edit]Negotiations are opposed rolls. Your TN is your opponent's skill and theirs is your skill. If you are defaulting then your TN is your opponent's skill+4 and their TN is your effective skill. You both roll your skills and see who got the largest number of successes, whoever did can modify the price of the item a bit in their favour. There are different rules for things like fasttalking but the +4 would syill apply.[/edit]

[Siege]

Besides, do you really want to be participating in a Negotiations roll where you can use your Combat pool?:D

-Siege

[TinkerGnome]

Negotiations TNs are set by the opponent's willpower (for bargaining) or intelligence (for fast talking, etc), not skill or charisma. Leadership goes against intelligence, intimidation and interrogation go against willpower. Thus having a high charisma isn't the end-all be-all of social tests since it really only affects etiquette tests.

[nezumi]

And by the by, that +4 really makes a *HUGE* difference. It can turn the situation from moderate difficulty to nigh impossible, plus don't forget you can't default if the TN is already past a certain number (4 or 6, I forget which). I'd say its better to spend 4 skill points to get your negotiations up to snuff than 4 attribute points to get an outstanding charisma, especially since the guy with the skill for the job will still do better. Throw in the fact that etiquette and negotiation are both very broad skills now (equivalent of the old Firearms skill, IMO) and you're getting a very nice deal.

However, aside from task pool (which you get with a special chipjack for your skillwire) I'm not aware of any pools you can use for charisma skills. Even if there were, you can't use them when defaulting.

To address the original question, pools can be used for just about anything which has that name, up to the number of the appropriate skill. You can use decking pool for anything computer related including ordering pizza online (up to your computer skill), magic for casting your level 1 light spell while stumbling to the bathroom (and I BELIEVE for learning spells, but I might be wrong), combat for throwing a shoe at a roach (up to your skill in throw). Pretty straightforward.

[Traks]

[mfb]

if you've got 8 charisma and 6 intel, you would have the upper hand against a skilled negotiator (skill 6) of average intelligence (3). your TN would be 7, his would be 6, you've got more dice. however, if he's even one point smarter, you're suddenly on roughly even footing. if you plan on spending your entire career negotiating with people who dumb, then you've got a sound plan.

i'll note here that professional johnsons are known for their negotiation skills and, usually, their intelligence--after all, hiring people to do illegal things isn't a career stupid people survive for long.

[nezumi]

[The Frumious Ban...]

My only problem with the majority of Social Tests is that Charisma plays very little part in it beyond limiting how high your Social Skills can go before you have to pay extra Karma -- or in other words, it's not really an issue.

Two people are negotiating a deal. One has a Charisma of 10, the other 6. They are otherwise equal in all ways, including having a Negotiation skill of 6. The character with the significantly higher Charisma should have a distinct advantage here, yet he doesn't. I think the only time Charisma comes up is with Intimidation/Interrogation tests.

I've always advocated a Social Pool myself, and it doesn't make characters with one "ubermunchkiny" simply because other characters will have one, too, which they can use to "defend" against Social Tests -- it's just the higher Charisma characters would actually have an advantage, which they should. But basing the Social Pool on Charisma would at least bring Charisma back into the game as a functional attribute for non-Conjurers. It would also allow a tweaking of the Tailored Pheromones implant (changing its bonus to a Social Pool bonus instead of a Skill bonus) and Improved Looks surgical option (same), not to mention some of the social edges and flaws.

As it stands, Willpower is already an uber-stat. It defends against magic and many social tests, not to mention affecting your Combat Pool, amongst other things. Charisma... is pretty much only useful for a Conjurer.

[tisoz]

Sorry about going off topic,but...

What does frumious mean? I looked for it in the dictionary and it wasn't present.

[Siege]

[Siege]

As for the term "Frumious Bandersnatch", while it sounds like a bawdy sex act, actually refers to a creature in the Lewis Carroll poem.

Jabberwocky

This poem also spawned the famous phrase, "Vorpal".

-Siege

[Kanada Ten]

[Siege]

It was also a musical group, the title of a book and various other references --> gotta love Google.

-Siege

[Tanka]

It's also a poster here on Dumpshock.

Hey, you guys missed all the obvious, so somebody had to! :grinbig:

[Siege]

Hey, I thought I covered that when I described it as a "potential bawdy sex act"...

:grinbig:

-Siege

[mfb]

the 'stats have no impact on skills' applies to everything; i'm not sure why anyone's making a stink about negotiation and charisma, specifically. having a high quickness doesn't directly impact your firearms skill, having a high body doesn't directly impact your athletics.

[Siege]

There isn't a direct link between skill and stat, but as others have pointed out --> it costs more karma to raise skills that exceed the related stat, not counting the extra points at character creation.

Mind you, I find that indirect relationship even more frustrating than the former lack of any relationship in SR1 and SR2.

-Siege

[Ol' Scratch]

[Tziluthi]

On the topic of combat pool, is it applicable when, say, a character is stabbing an unawares opponent in the kidneys, or in that sort of situation?

[BitBasher]

You cannot use pool dice if you are surprised. So no.

[Tziluthi]

Even if you're the one doing the stabbing?

[BitBasher]

Er you can't be doing the stabbing if you are the one surprised, if you are surprised you are the stabee not the stabber. :D