So, I admit that I am not too knowledgeable of Shadowrun rules.
Although I am doing my best to learn them
Now, a question. Do pools get used outside the combat, on mundane tasks?
Or you just use skill in question (with complementary skills, if applicable)?

If second, another question arises:
Then why you should learn Negotiations if you can use Charisma?
You can surely use those points elsewhere and default to Charisma everywhere in social skills. It will have higher difficulty rating (+4?) but generally it is worth it.
And if you have no negotiations but have psychology, can you use complementary skills to help it? (I remember reading somewhere that answer is NO).

define 'mundane tasks'. if you're talking about the shooting range? yeah, you get cp. doing the dishes, not so much.

as for the second question, that +4 is going to suck when you run into someone who doesn't default.

It is possible to default to charisma. I once had an idea for an elf character with a high charisma who took all of the edges that had -ve TN mods on social tests (good reputation 2, good looking and knows it, and friendly face) meaning he could remove some of that +4 at GM's disgression.

Also; their TN remains whatever you are rolling to oppose, which can be as high as charisma 10 for a starting elf. Versus a skill 6 character, you'd have the same TN before you consider any edges and you'd be rolling 4 more dice than them (even 6 dice if you go the tailored pheremones way).

Anyway: Enough Munchkinism on my part.

About your last question; AFAIK; yes you could use a complementary skill to aid a roll which you are defaulting to another skill.

[edit]Negotiations are opposed rolls. Your TN is your opponent's skill and theirs is your skill. If you are defaulting then your TN is your opponent's skill+4 and their TN is your effective skill. You both roll your skills and see who got the largest number of successes, whoever did can modify the price of the item a bit in their favour. There are different rules for things like fasttalking but the +4 would syill apply.[/edit]

Besides, do you really want to be participating in a Negotiations roll where you can use your Combat pool?

-Siege

Negotiations TNs are set by the opponent's willpower (for bargaining) or intelligence (for fast talking, etc), not skill or charisma. Leadership goes against intelligence, intimidation and interrogation go against willpower. Thus having a high charisma isn't the end-all be-all of social tests since it really only affects etiquette tests.

And by the by, that +4 really makes a *HUGE* difference. It can turn the situation from moderate difficulty to nigh impossible, plus don't forget you can't default if the TN is already past a certain number (4 or 6, I forget which). I'd say its better to spend 4 skill points to get your negotiations up to snuff than 4 attribute points to get an outstanding charisma, especially since the guy with the skill for the job will still do better. Throw in the fact that etiquette and negotiation are both very broad skills now (equivalent of the old Firearms skill, IMO) and you're getting a very nice deal.

However, aside from task pool (which you get with a special chipjack for your skillwire) I'm not aware of any pools you can use for charisma skills. Even if there were, you can't use them when defaulting.

To address the original question, pools can be used for just about anything which has that name, up to the number of the appropriate skill. You can use decking pool for anything computer related including ordering pizza online (up to your computer skill), magic for casting your level 1 light spell while stumbling to the bathroom (and I BELIEVE for learning spells, but I might be wrong), combat for throwing a shoe at a roach (up to your skill in throw). Pretty straightforward.

if you've got 8 charisma and 6 intel, you would have the upper hand against a skilled negotiator (skill 6) of average intelligence (3). your TN would be 7, his would be 6, you've got more dice. however, if he's even one point smarter, you're suddenly on roughly even footing. if you plan on spending your entire career negotiating with people who dumb, then you've got a sound plan.

i'll note here that professional johnsons are known for their negotiation skills and, usually, their intelligence--after all, hiring people to do illegal things isn't a career stupid people survive for long.

My only problem with the majority of Social Tests is that Charisma plays very little part in it beyond limiting how high your Social Skills can go before you have to pay extra Karma -- or in other words, it's not really an issue.

Two people are negotiating a deal. One has a Charisma of 10, the other 6. They are otherwise equal in all ways, including having a Negotiation skill of 6. The character with the significantly higher Charisma should have a distinct advantage here, yet he doesn't. I think the only time Charisma comes up is with Intimidation/Interrogation tests.

I've always advocated a Social Pool myself, and it doesn't make characters with one "ubermunchkiny" simply because other characters will have one, too, which they can use to "defend" against Social Tests -- it's just the higher Charisma characters would actually have an advantage, which they should. But basing the Social Pool on Charisma would at least bring Charisma back into the game as a functional attribute for non-Conjurers. It would also allow a tweaking of the Tailored Pheromones implant (changing its bonus to a Social Pool bonus instead of a Skill bonus) and Improved Looks surgical option (same), not to mention some of the social edges and flaws.

As it stands, Willpower is already an uber-stat. It defends against magic and many social tests, not to mention affecting your Combat Pool, amongst other things. Charisma... is pretty much only useful for a Conjurer.

Sorry about going off topic,but...

What does frumious mean? I looked for it in the dictionary and it wasn't present.

As for the term "Frumious Bandersnatch", while it sounds like a bawdy sex act, actually refers to a creature in the Lewis Carroll poem.

Jabberwocky

This poem also spawned the famous phrase, "Vorpal".

-Siege

It was also a musical group, the title of a book and various other references --> gotta love Google.

-Siege

It's also a poster here on Dumpshock.

Hey, you guys missed all the obvious, so somebody had to!

Hey, I thought I covered that when I described it as a "potential bawdy sex act"...



-Siege

the 'stats have no impact on skills' applies to everything; i'm not sure why anyone's making a stink about negotiation and charisma, specifically. having a high quickness doesn't directly impact your firearms skill, having a high body doesn't directly impact your athletics.

There isn't a direct link between skill and stat, but as others have pointed out --> it costs more karma to raise skills that exceed the related stat, not counting the extra points at character creation.

Mind you, I find that indirect relationship even more frustrating than the former lack of any relationship in SR1 and SR2.

-Siege

On the topic of combat pool, is it applicable when, say, a character is stabbing an unawares opponent in the kidneys, or in that sort of situation?

You cannot use pool dice if you are surprised. So no.

Even if you're the one doing the stabbing?

Er you can't be doing the stabbing if you are the one surprised, if you are surprised you are the stabee not the stabber.

Huh? That's what I said in the first place. The player character is the stabber. I wanted to know if the PC could use combat pool dice to improve his Edged Weapons dice.

If he is unsurprised, and doing the attacking? then heck yeah. Otherwise, getting surprised in this game is a supremely excellent way to me summarily killed outright.

Good to know

Damn Bit, in future games we will endeavor to prolong your life by not being surprised.

-Siege

Man, what a typo!

Well in my game thats a huge difference because I let anyone behind the wheel of a car have control pool equal to their natural reaction. This is not unbalancing because riggers will still have far more of it, and riggers get the TN bonuses from their VCR's. I just though it was stupid that a driver couldn't even try to get out of the way of something unless he had a VCR.

I suppose the problem is if you propose a social pool, wouldnt willpower factor into it? and then willpower would be even more important to make sure your social tests are managable. I imagine a social pool would be something like 1/2(charisma+willpower) at max or 1/3(charisma + willpower) at worst

High charisma characters could make a good argument for swapping out Charisma instead of Willpower or Int for opposed tests -- I mean c'mon, how many times have we done stupid things because a pretty person asked us to?

Or an insanely charming one? I could explain all the rational, logical reasons to do a bad thing, but it takes Charisma to make it seem appealing.

-Siege

Just to quote myself...

But here the linked attribute doesn't help the skill at all. It's the example you asked for.


I'd like to point out that just because an attribute helps a character, it may not enhance his skill. This is the case of a driver and his initiative, and is, as I said, the case for most skills in the game.

Similarly, having plenty of similar experience doesn't help with a skill. Knowing how to fire a pistol, shotgun, rifle, assault cannon and being fully trained in assault rifle b/r (all at level 6) doesn't give you any more bonuses towards firing an M-16 than you'd get if you only had pistols 6. So becoming a weapons master involves quite a bit of redundancy...

How would a Charisma pool work? There are only so many demands on skills during an interaction, unlike a Combat pool that has to be allocated based on dodging or active combat skills and so on.

-Siege

It does enhance their skill by allowing them to use it more frequently in many stressful situations. If you're speeding, performing stunts, driving through department stores, or making hairpin turns, chances are you're either being persued by someone/thing or you're just being stupid. Car is not used in normal situations, only extreme ones. Reaction plays a big part in those situations, and whether or not you wish to dismiss its role, it DOES come up quite often. Unlike Charisma in Social Skill tests, where it *never* comes up save for one or two obscure situations.

If you want a better example for what you're tying to prove, point to skills like Biotech. But even then, Intelligence still plays a huge role with characters, including allowing them to have more points to put in Medicine which can occassionally act as a Complimentary Skill and/or is used to create procedures as part of Biotech.

In fact the only skills I can think of where their linked Attribute doesn't play a role at least half the time is Biotech, Build/Repair Skills, and Social Skills. At least you *can* gain a Task Pool (outside of skillsofts at least) to aid with the first two.

Most Melee Skills rely on Strength or Quickness save for stun weapons, Quickness affects the Combat Pool which augments Firearm Skills, Reaction often comes up and allows you more actions with your Vehicle Skills, Willpower comes up often with Sorcery and occassionally with Conjuring, Intelligence plays a huge role with Aura Reading, Body [Fatigue * Falling] and Strength [Climbing & Lifting] and Quickness [Speed & Jumping] affects most of the things Athletics does, Intelligence can function as Reaction for deckers with a hot deck, etc. Each one of those linked Attributes affects their linked Skill to one degree or another.

Yet Social Skills get virtually *no* benefit from Charisma.

I don't know what point you're trying to make with "I'd like to point out that just because an attribute helps a character, it may not enhance his skill" comment, but dice pools are used with most aggressive skills on a run. Combat Pool is used with melee and firearm skills, Control Pool is used with vehicle skills, Hacking Pool is used while decking, Spell Pool is used with magic, Task Pool helps when breaking/entering, yet there's no pool to help with Fast Talking or other uses of Social Skills. The same holds true for Athletics and Stealth, but at least those two still benefit (even if indirectly) from their linked Attribute. And once again, Social Skills do not.

So yes, basically, I highly advocate the use of a Social Pool. Why others would be so against it is beyond me.

Doc Funk, how would you implement this Social pool?

When does it refresh? Limits on use? How does it work?

I'm not trying to be asinine for a change, but I'm curious as to how you would see it function in a game.

-Siege

Edit: You might consider using the bennies from "Strength vs Recoil" table and apply those numbers to Social tests where Charisma is a factor.

Not a great fix, but a quick one. /edit

Seems like a lot of work. Why not just let the player roll Charisma as complementary in situations where it would be relevant?

How is it any more work than any other Dice Pool?

I like where Siege is going with his idea. The point isn't so much that you need a pool, since the only time you wouldn't use the entire pool for every test is maybe in negotiations where you could split it between lowering his successes and increasing yours. The point is to make charisma somehow increase the given skill on its own. You don't even need to worry about how much you add, since charisma skills won't be pitted against combat or hacking or whatever; you just need to make sure your new skill levels are even with the TNs they're up against. So if you increase all social tests by 2 (or whatever) and then add on a certain number of "free" skill points depending on the charisma (either like the strength recoil numbers or cha/2 or whatever), you've made charisma relevant again while still keeping the balance just fine and not complicating things more than necessary.