 About pools outside the combat, Are they used? |
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 Nov 12 2003, 06:38 AM
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#26
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 596 Joined: 18-February 03 Member No.: 4,112  |
Huh? That's what I said in the first place. The player character is the stabber. I wanted to know if the PC could use combat pool dice to improve his Edged Weapons dice.
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Nov 12 2003, 06:43 AM
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#27
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Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
If he is unsurprised, and doing the attacking? then heck yeah. Otherwise, getting surprised in this game is a supremely excellent way to me summarily killed outright.
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Nov 12 2003, 06:46 AM
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#28
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 596 Joined: 18-February 03 Member No.: 4,112 |
Good to know :)
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Nov 12 2003, 07:31 AM
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#29
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,065 Joined: 16-January 03 From: Fayetteville, NC Member No.: 3,916 |
Damn Bit, in future games we will endeavor to prolong your life by not being surprised.
-Siege |
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Nov 12 2003, 07:40 AM
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#30
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Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
Man, what a typo! :rotfl:
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Nov 12 2003, 09:02 AM
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#31
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,685 Joined: 17-August 02 Member No.: 3,123 |
Almost every other skill in the entire game, and many particular instances of the skills he mentioned? If you need an example to wangle around, consider two drivers with Car: 6. One has a reaction of 10, the other has a reaction of 1. |
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Nov 12 2003, 04:35 PM
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#32
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Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
Well in my game thats a huge difference because I let anyone behind the wheel of a car have control pool equal to their natural reaction. This is not unbalancing because riggers will still have far more of it, and riggers get the TN bonuses from their VCR's. I just though it was stupid that a driver couldn't even try to get out of the way of something unless he had a VCR.
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Nov 12 2003, 05:34 PM
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#33
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
You mean besides the fact that the character with Reaction 10 will effectively be able to do twice as much as Reaction 1 boy? :) |
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Nov 12 2003, 05:35 PM
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#34
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
You mean besides the fact that the character with Reaction 10 will effectively be able to do twice as much as Reaction 1 boy? :) Once again, unless you're a magician, Charisma has NO EFFECT on anything, directly or indirectly, beyond the Karma to learn a spell. Every other attribute has significant functional use, either direct or indirect, beyond that. Intelligence gives you more Knowledge and Language Skills, improves your Reaction and Combat Pool, and helps defend against Illusions. Willpower helps defend against many spells as well as helping against certain attacks and improves your Combat Pool. Body is used all over the frelling place, as is Quickness. Strength boosts your melee damage. Reaction determines how many actions you get when the shit hits the fan. Charisma... does fuck all. Which is why it's often used as a "dump" stat because it just doesn't matter save for the rarely used Intimidation test (and even then only at the extreme levels does it have any effect); it's all about Social Skills. |
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Nov 12 2003, 05:48 PM
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#35
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,685 Joined: 17-August 02 Member No.: 3,123 |
I thought of that immediately, and can see no reason why that'd matter unless they were battling or something. The fellow with the reaction of 1 (and probably quickness and intelligence of 1) will take the hairpin turns down at Devils Hell Canyon Of Death And Wreckage just as accurately. |
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Nov 12 2003, 05:51 PM
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#36
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 555 Joined: 11-August 03 Member No.: 5,408 |
I suppose the problem is if you propose a social pool, wouldnt willpower factor into it? and then willpower would be even more important to make sure your social tests are managable. I imagine a social pool would be something like 1/2(charisma+willpower) at max or 1/3(charisma + willpower) at worst
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Nov 12 2003, 05:55 PM
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#37
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,065 Joined: 16-January 03 From: Fayetteville, NC Member No.: 3,916 |
High charisma characters could make a good argument for swapping out Charisma instead of Willpower or Int for opposed tests -- I mean c'mon, how many times have we done stupid things because a pretty person asked us to?
Or an insanely charming one? I could explain all the rational, logical reasons to do a bad thing, but it takes Charisma to make it seem appealing. -Siege |
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Nov 12 2003, 06:02 PM
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#38
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
You're talking to someone who's advocating Pools for most skills, including Control Pools without a VCR (whereas VCRs already give Riggers ridiculous bonuses without having to cripple non-Riggers). You realize that, right? I'm just focusing on Social Skills because Charisma plays virtually no role whatsoever with mundane characters. And besides, whether you want to dismiss it or not, the Reaction 10 Car 6 fellow is still more capable behind the wheel than the Reaction 1 Car 6 fellow. Especially since the only time you really use the Car skill (which isn't there for mundane driving; it's a professional stunt-driving type skill; just like you don't need Computers to perform mundane tasks, either) is when you have opposition in one form or another. Afterall, Attributes aren't always used with other skills, either. You don't use Willpower when learning a spell via Sorcery, or Charisma when creating an ally spirit formula. (At least I don't think you do right off the top of my head.) |
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Nov 12 2003, 06:34 PM
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#39
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,685 Joined: 17-August 02 Member No.: 3,123 |
Ok, so you're using house rules that help resolve the very problem we're discussing. That is an admission that the problem was obvious enough to you that you did something about it. Glad to hear that we agree. Now, with charisma, why not just continue the same way you've been going, by house ruling a pool for this skill as well?
I see Car rolls all the time for unopposed stunts. Jumps, hairpin turns, driving through department stores, ice sheets, the accident power, etc. are events that happen all the time in my games. SlowHand will be just as good a wheelman. |
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Nov 12 2003, 06:42 PM
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#40
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Just to quote myself...
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Nov 12 2003, 07:33 PM
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#41
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,685 Joined: 17-August 02 Member No.: 3,123 |
But here the linked attribute doesn't help the skill at all. It's the example you asked for.
I'd like to point out that just because an attribute helps a character, it may not enhance his skill. This is the case of a driver and his initiative, and is, as I said, the case for most skills in the game. |
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Nov 12 2003, 07:45 PM
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#42
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Incertum est quo loco te mors expectet; Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,546 Joined: 24-October 03 From: DeeCee, U.S. Member No.: 5,760 |
Similarly, having plenty of similar experience doesn't help with a skill. Knowing how to fire a pistol, shotgun, rifle, assault cannon and being fully trained in assault rifle b/r (all at level 6) doesn't give you any more bonuses towards firing an M-16 than you'd get if you only had pistols 6. So becoming a weapons master involves quite a bit of redundancy...
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Nov 12 2003, 07:51 PM
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#43
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,065 Joined: 16-January 03 From: Fayetteville, NC Member No.: 3,916 |
How would a Charisma pool work? There are only so many demands on skills during an interaction, unlike a Combat pool that has to be allocated based on dodging or active combat skills and so on.
-Siege |
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Nov 12 2003, 07:54 PM
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#44
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
It does enhance their skill by allowing them to use it more frequently in many stressful situations. If you're speeding, performing stunts, driving through department stores, or making hairpin turns, chances are you're either being persued by someone/thing or you're just being stupid. Car is not used in normal situations, only extreme ones. Reaction plays a big part in those situations, and whether or not you wish to dismiss its role, it DOES come up quite often. Unlike Charisma in Social Skill tests, where it *never* comes up save for one or two obscure situations.
If you want a better example for what you're tying to prove, point to skills like Biotech. But even then, Intelligence still plays a huge role with characters, including allowing them to have more points to put in Medicine which can occassionally act as a Complimentary Skill and/or is used to create procedures as part of Biotech. In fact the only skills I can think of where their linked Attribute doesn't play a role at least half the time is Biotech, Build/Repair Skills, and Social Skills. At least you *can* gain a Task Pool (outside of skillsofts at least) to aid with the first two. Most Melee Skills rely on Strength or Quickness save for stun weapons, Quickness affects the Combat Pool which augments Firearm Skills, Reaction often comes up and allows you more actions with your Vehicle Skills, Willpower comes up often with Sorcery and occassionally with Conjuring, Intelligence plays a huge role with Aura Reading, Body [Fatigue * Falling] and Strength [Climbing & Lifting] and Quickness [Speed & Jumping] affects most of the things Athletics does, Intelligence can function as Reaction for deckers with a hot deck, etc. Each one of those linked Attributes affects their linked Skill to one degree or another. Yet Social Skills get virtually *no* benefit from Charisma. I don't know what point you're trying to make with "I'd like to point out that just because an attribute helps a character, it may not enhance his skill" comment, but dice pools are used with most aggressive skills on a run. Combat Pool is used with melee and firearm skills, Control Pool is used with vehicle skills, Hacking Pool is used while decking, Spell Pool is used with magic, Task Pool helps when breaking/entering, yet there's no pool to help with Fast Talking or other uses of Social Skills. The same holds true for Athletics and Stealth, but at least those two still benefit (even if indirectly) from their linked Attribute. And once again, Social Skills do not. So yes, basically, I highly advocate the use of a Social Pool. Why others would be so against it is beyond me. |
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Nov 12 2003, 07:56 PM
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#45
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,065 Joined: 16-January 03 From: Fayetteville, NC Member No.: 3,916 |
Doc Funk, how would you implement this Social pool?
When does it refresh? Limits on use? How does it work? I'm not trying to be asinine for a change, but I'm curious as to how you would see it function in a game. -Siege Edit: You might consider using the bennies from "Strength vs Recoil" table and apply those numbers to Social tests where Charisma is a factor. Not a great fix, but a quick one. /edit |
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Nov 12 2003, 07:58 PM
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#46
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
It would probably be a limited pool, like the Hacking Pool (Charisma/3 + Tailored Pheromones is what I use). It's then used anytime you make a Social Skill test which is often an opposed roll, such as with Negotiation. Resisting opponents can use their own Social Pool to augment their Willpower/Charisma/Intelligence/Skill Test as appropriate. I also only refresh it once per scene (as opposed to once every three seconds), just like I do with Karma Pools and Task Pools. So while you might blow your Social Pool trying to Fast Talk your way past a security guard, the next guard you run into will still have the benefit of his Social Pool while you don't. |
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Nov 12 2003, 08:15 PM
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#47
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Target Group: Members Posts: 43 Joined: 16-October 03 Member No.: 5,724 |
Seems like a lot of work. Why not just let the player roll Charisma as complementary in situations where it would be relevant?
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Nov 12 2003, 08:16 PM
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#48
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
How is it any more work than any other Dice Pool?
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Nov 12 2003, 08:26 PM
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#49
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Incertum est quo loco te mors expectet; Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,546 Joined: 24-October 03 From: DeeCee, U.S. Member No.: 5,760 |
I like where Siege is going with his idea. The point isn't so much that you need a pool, since the only time you wouldn't use the entire pool for every test is maybe in negotiations where you could split it between lowering his successes and increasing yours. The point is to make charisma somehow increase the given skill on its own. You don't even need to worry about how much you add, since charisma skills won't be pitted against combat or hacking or whatever; you just need to make sure your new skill levels are even with the TNs they're up against. So if you increase all social tests by 2 (or whatever) and then add on a certain number of "free" skill points depending on the charisma (either like the strength recoil numbers or cha/2 or whatever), you've made charisma relevant again while still keeping the balance just fine and not complicating things more than necessary.
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Nov 12 2003, 08:28 PM
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#50
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Target Group: Members Posts: 43 Joined: 16-October 03 Member No.: 5,724 |
It's exactly as much work as adding yet another dice pool. More actually, since you have yet to discover what wacky synergistic effects it's going to have on the system. (Do I get to add my "Charisma Pool" if I'm defaulting to Charisma for the roll? No? Why not?) The difference here is that the social skills are active, not passive. You don't have to learn how to charm people, but you can. But being attractive doesn't mean you'll automatically score with the opposite sex, for example. Being found attractive by the person you're attempting to charm does help, but LA is full of beautiful girls who don't have the social skills needed to become the next Cameron Diaz or Julia Roberts. A complementary roll would be determining whether or not the person you're trying to fool/convince found your character attractive, but it wouldn't turn every scene into a tactical social battle. |
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