About pools outside the combat

About pools outside the combat, Are they used?

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Zazen

Nov 12 2003, 08:31 PM

Post #51

Shooting Target

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QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)

It does enhance their skill by allowing them to use it more frequently in many stressful situations.

I can only repeat myself. Allowing them to use it more frequently does not make them better at it.

Here's the best example I can muster to make this clear:
Driver 1: Car skill-1 Initiative-1,000,000,000
Driver 2: Car skill-2 Initiative-1

I know who I want driving me down Devils Canyon, even if I AM being chased. If initiative really enhanced skill, then surely a billion points of it would overtake the measly 1 point skill difference, but this is not the case.

Kagetenshi View Member Profile	Nov 12 2003, 08:38 PM Post #52
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,008 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802	It doesn't matter how fast you jump, only that you jump in the right direction. ~J

Ol' Scratch

Nov 12 2003, 08:46 PM

Post #53

Immortal Elf

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QUOTE (Dr Vital)

It's exactly as much work as adding yet another dice pool.

So in other words, no difficulty whatsoever.

QUOTE

More actually, since you have yet to discover what wacky synergistic effects it's going to have on the system. (Do I get to add my "Charisma Pool" if I'm defaulting to Charisma for the roll? No? Why not?)

You use exactly the same logic as you do with other pools. If defaulting from a related Skill, you can use up to half. If from an Attribute, none. (At least I think that's the rules for defaulting; it's been a while.)

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The difference here is that the social skills are active, not passive. You don't have to learn how to charm people, but you can.

I don't even know how to respond to that comment. How is that any different from Pistols, Edged Weapons, or Computers?

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But being attractive doesn't mean you'll automatically score with the opposite sex, for example. Being found attractive by the person you're attempting to charm does help, but LA is full of beautiful girls who don't have the social skills needed to become the next Cameron Diaz or Julia Roberts.

Charisma is hardly only your appearance. Try reading up on it in the main book. It's near the beginning; the second chapter, if memory serves. A naturally charismatic and saavy person should be able to run circles around a slobbering pig who belches constantly, but struggles to not do so while Negotiating. But as it stands, both have exactly the same odds of success despite a Charisma of 8 vs. 1.

It's like saying that just because that Troll has a Strength of 10, he shouldn't be able to slash his Katana into you any more fiercely than the wussy little Gnome with a Strength of 1. And yes, it is exactly the same difference.

QUOTE

A complementary roll would be determining whether or not the person you're trying to fool/convince found your character attractive, but it wouldn't turn every scene into a tactical social battle.

It would as much as Combat Pool turns every combat situation into a tactical combat battle. Or Hacking Pool turns every computer situation into a tactical viritual battle. Or Spell Pool turns every sorcery situation into a tactical magical battle. Or Task Pool turns every electronic warfare isituation into a tactical electronic battle. etc.

Dr Vital

Nov 13 2003, 12:29 AM

Post #54

Target

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QUOTE (Dr. F)

Charisma is hardly only your appearance. Try reading up on it in the main book. It's near the beginning; the second chapter, if memory serves. A naturally charismatic and saavy person should be able to run circles around a slobbering pig who belches constantly, but struggles to not do so while Negotiating. But as it stands, both have exactly the same odds of success despite a Charisma of 8 vs. 1.

See, I have no idea how idea how attractive you are, but your condescending attitude isn't helping your argument. If you think people should "read up on it" just because they disagree with you that shows a lack of understanding of etiquette.

And there are plenty of "belching slobs" who do just fine in business and politics and every other walk of life.

QUOTE

It's like saying that just because that Troll has a Strength of 10, he shouldn't be able to slash his Katana into you any more fiercely than the wussy little Gnome with a Strength of 1. And yes, it is exactly the same difference.

In game terms, if he's slow and stupid he's probably going to miss, no matter how "fiercely" he swings it. If he connects it is going to hurt more, and the system already deals with that fairly elegantly.

So, following that logic the solution is that Charisma should be a modifier that the GM uses to determine just how effective a player's success actually is. Essentially a way to determine the "damage" a player does after they "hit" with their charisma.

QUOTE

It would as much as Combat Pool turns every combat situation into a tactical combat battle. Or Hacking Pool turns every computer situation into a tactical viritual battle. Or Spell Pool turns every sorcery situation into a tactical magical battle. Or Task Pool turns every electronic warfare isituation into a tactical electronic battle. etc.

I just think that adding another pool strikes me as too tactical a solution for social situations. This is a role-playing game, and the social aspects should be handled in a way that is more open ended than combat, spellcasting, driving, and hacking.

Ol' Scratch

Nov 13 2003, 12:38 AM

Post #55

Immortal Elf

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QUOTE (Dr Vital)

See, I have no idea how idea how attractive you are, but your condescending attitude isn't helping your argument. If you think people should "read up on it" just because they disagree with you that shows a lack of understanding of etiquette.

No, you're claim above that Charisma is solely how attractive a character is is horribly ignorant, thus I asked you to read up on what the Attribute actually means. Considering the tone you had in your second post, I don't think you have the right to say anyone else is being condescending either.

QUOTE

And there are plenty of "belching slobs" who do just fine in business and politics and every other walk of life.

Yes, but they're still often outshone by the sophisticated, naturally charming individuals which is my point.

QUOTE

In game terms, if he's slow and stupid he's probably going to miss, no matter how "fiercely" he swings it. If he connects it is going to hurt more, and the system already deals with that fairly elegantly.

No, in game terms if they're identical in every other way (same Skill level particularly), their Strength matters significantly. The troll with Strength 10 is going to significantly outperform the gnome with a Strength of 1 when it comes to showing what they can do with their respective weapons. That troll, for instance, is going to smash right through a drone with an Armor rating of 5, whereas the gnome wouldn't even scratch it.

QUOTE

So, following that logic the solution is that Charisma should be a modifier that the GM uses to determine just how effective a player's success actually is. Essentially a way to determine the "damage" a player does after they "hit" with their charisma.

Considering your apparently problem with adding a simple Social Pool that functions just like every other pool in the game, why you would rather have some convulted set of rules for "social damage" is beyond me.

QUOTE

I just think that adding another pool strikes me as too tactical a solution for social situations.

Yet in the last quote you're talking about Charisma-based "damage" and "hit" successes. Go figure.

QUOTE

This is a role-playing game, and the social aspects should be handled in a way that is more open ended than combat, spellcasting, driving, and hacking.

Ah, you're one of those people. Yes, so why bother with scores at all? Kill off Charisma, Social Skills, and everything relating to them. Leave it all to rolepalying. <thumbs up> Problem solved, baby... problem solved. Good job.

Fastball

Nov 13 2003, 01:41 AM

Post #56

Moving Target

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QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)

So while you might blow your Social Pool trying to Fast Talk your way past a security guard, the next guard you run into will still have the benefit of his Social Pool while you don't.

I see a small problem with this method. Let's say guard 1 is very charismatic and intelligent; you blow most of your social pool coming up with this great story to fast talk your way past the security guard. Then you run into security guard two, who happens to be a lazy, unlikeable dunce, but since you've already used your social pool, you have a harder time fast talking your way past him/her, even though you've already developed a believable story that has proven to work at least once.

A better method may be to refresh per situation, so you could use the pool in both cases against the guard, but if you go to meet a new fixer and use all of your social pool convincing him/her to speak with you, you'll get reamed in later negotiations. Or perhaps you spend all of your pool getting a great deal on that item you've always wanted only to be forced to pay extravagant prices on anything else you decide you want or need.

Of course, when you start adding social pool dice you're running a risk of making it easier for a high-Charisma fast talker to weasle his way past a security guard on a whim than it is for the low-Charisma chum who took extra time to come up with a solid background story for his/her actions (unless you make some serious adjustments to TN).

Siege View Member Profile	Nov 13 2003, 01:45 AM Post #57
Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,065 Joined: 16-January 03 From: Fayetteville, NC Member No.: 3,916	A social pool might be more useful if we expand the options that a PC can accomplish within a specific social interaction: Successes to lower your TN or raise your Opponent's TN, augment skills in use and so on. Sorry if this is half-baked, I'm working through a night of drinks. :grinbig: -Siege

Kagetenshi View Member Profile	Nov 13 2003, 02:28 AM Post #58
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,008 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802	Simplest solution may be just to allow Charisma as a "complementary skill". Pools would be free dice unless you significantly go away from all other pools in the game in terms of how they refresh (with the exception of the karma pool, but two of those is just messy). It doesn't matter how winning your personality is if you use the wrong fork at dinner. ~J

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