Down in the Gutter: OOC, The Nuts and Bolts of Staying Alive Options

[WinterRat1]

Abbandon - The IC post I put up should answer any OOC questions you asked above. :ork

You're free to post IC or OOC as needed in accordance with whatever you decide as your course of action.

[Abbandon]

Yeah it was just to conserve space that i spoilered it. I was mainly concerned by how much time it looked like it would take to train things. months and months of game time = never.

I totally forgot that you get to roll dice to reduce the training time. It still seems theoretically like there would be a log jam if we ever did get a ton of karma and how long it would take to train stuff. Sure you could never give out big chunks of karma (boooo) OR we could tweak training times so that it didnt take as long in game time(yaaaaaay). No need to swing either way until we actually have some data to see if their are any problems.

Hey while we are talking about training. Does playing video games in ar/vr count? How else could we spend hour and hours practicing shooting guns or stealth or some other stuff ?

[Abbandon]

Fool

hmmmmm. I would like to pull my gun and step out to speak to them. Would going for my gun initiate combat? Do i see any hellhound bikes out front with those guys?

[WinterRat1]

[Mister Juan]

Since PMs are rather unreliable on DS, here's pretty much what I'll go for with Felix
Spoilered just for space.

[ Spoiler ]

Category A: 10 BP total
Category B: 5 BP total -> 3 BP converted into 3 karma
Category C: 15 karma

+1 Assensing (4 BP from Category A)
+1 Arcana (4 BP from Category A)
Initiating to Grade 1, with ordeal, Divination metamagic (12 karma from Category C)
New Spell: Mindprobe (3 karma from Category C, 2 karma from Category B)
+1 Spellcasting (2BP from Category A, 2BP from Category B)

Left with 1 karma for rainy days :P

I'm still debating wether or not to have Felix initiate... since it costs the same ammount of karma to raise magic to 4. Anyone wants to butt in on that?

[adamu]

@Winter - as you know, I think the karma award is GREAT!!! I seriously doubt you will have anyone ever complain about getting too much karma!

But I have long had the same concern expressed by Abbandon - the training system as written has a real potential of just stopping the bulk of character advancement dead in its tracks.

Thus, the BP award is awesome, cuz we can get it done right away. But the training thing - the time scales involved really are, I fear, so far out of the reasonable scope of forum games as to render them moot.

Now, I haven't said anything before because (1) you didn't ask, and I try not to be too much of a pain to the GM, (2) there had heretofore been no karma, so it was an academic question, and (3) who knows, maybe in actual practice it will work out better.

But I think the numbers you and Abbandon have been tossing back and forth really tell the tale - in seven months game time has barely finished 12 busy hours (no complaint at all in itself - that's just forum gaming). There is simply no possible way that at that rate anyone will be able to use their karma. Granted, you may have plans for some time in the near future when things sort of open up and ongoing time is measured in days, not minutes.
But I fear that the training system as written renders any karma past a certain value essentially unusable.
And if people did find a way to use it, you will have a thread that is all about people ICing their training efforts, which may not only be tedious, but largely out of character for most gangers.

Just my thoughts - I suck at math. It's not my game. The system hasn't actually been tried yet. No intention to complain, and lots of reasons to discount my concerns.

[grendel]

[ Spoiler ]

Quality: Arnis de Mano (10 bp)
(+1 DV on Blades attack, arnisador can inflict damage when making called shot to disarm)

Marital Arts Maneuvers (5 bp + 1 bp converted from karma)
(Disarm, Finishing Move, Two weapon style)

12 karma remaining:
Initiate to grade 1 with ordeal (sacrifice) 11 pts. Metamagic: adept centering.

Sacrifice: Legion will have Ink scar him using a razorblade over his back, arms, and chest with the wings of the Raven. He'll pack the cuts with cigarette ash to create raised and bluish keloid scars, sacrificing his Charisma.

[Abbandon]

*feels someone walk up behind and put their arm around his neck. As he twists and turns to see what the heck is going on he discovers Adamu using his ass as a human shield*

*edit: Im probably spamming the thread at this point...

Here is an influence roll for Fool to keep the Hellhounds cool.
Influence 3 + Charisma 5 = 8 dice (pg122 for modifiers)
2, 2, 1, 3, 1, 6, 5, 4 = 2 hits

[Meriss]

@Winter: I think the rewards sound okay. But personally I think I'd like to see an actual example. I dunno math and me are not exactly good buddies.

[WinterRat1]

There were two examples up. Grendel and Mister Juan both posted their points spent, but their information was spoilered and is currently lost. I'm asking if we can get that information restored or if it's permanently gone.

In the meantime, Mister Juan and Grendel, would you two please repost your information, both for others to use as examples and for me to check? Thanks.

[Mister Juan]

Is it me or have all spoilers stopped working.
Issue is, I can't EXACTLY remember how I had gone about spending all that karma and BP.
Daaamn it

[Mister Juan]

Success! If you go back and edit your post, you can salvage the info from a spoiler. That is one good thing to know!
So, here it is, unspoilerd, for everyone to enjoy (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Points to allocate
Category A: 10 BP total
Category B: 5 BP total -> 3 BP converted into 3 karma
Category C: 15 karma

Expenditures
+1 Assensing (4 BP from Category A)
+1 Arcana (4 BP from Category A)
Initiating to Grade 1, with ordeal, Divination metamagic (12 karma from Category C)
New Spell: Mindprobe (3 karma from Category C, 2 karma from Category B)
+1 Spellcasting (2BP from Category A, 2BP from Category B)

Left with 1 karma for rainy days (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Vegas]

WR

With the 3 levels of bonuses we're getting, I'm assuming we can spend BP (or Karma, I can't remember the conversion for DITG if there has been one) on extra cash for gear?

Just thinking through what things/goodies there are in Arsenal (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Abbandon]

As long as it didnt break character building rules the answer is probably go for it!.

No wussy Forum upgrades are going to shake me loose!!

[grendel]

Quality: Arnis de Mano (10 bp)
(+1 DV on Blades attack, arnisador can inflict damage when making called shot to disarm)

Marital Arts Maneuvers (5 bp + 1 bp converted from karma)
(Disarm, Finishing Move, Two weapon style)

12 karma remaining:
Initiate to grade 1 with ordeal (sacrifice) 11 pts. Metamagic: adept centering.

Sacrifice: Legion will have Ink scar him using a razorblade over his back, arms, and chest with the wings of the Raven. He'll pack the cuts with cigarette ash to create raised and bluish keloid scars, sacrificing his Charisma.

[Vegas]

Meriss -

You want to toss anything up, or should we just fast-forward to going back to Slippy's or something else? Sounds like everyone wants to regather gear from multiple locations and what not.

[Meriss]

@Vegas: Nope go ahead Ink's got most of his gear stuffed in his backpack. (how long thats going to last is another story) Gear wise he's prolly about the wealthiest person in the Ravens. Also can you post the revised Karma rules on the wiki?

@Mr. J.: hmmmm ok so that looks like it might work thanks for the example.

@Winter: I think I get it. Lemme reread and digest the changes as I see em and I'll get back to you on my actual char changes.

@grendel: Looks like just the challenge Ink is up for!

[Fresno Bob]

Points for Aziz.

Qualities: Arnis de Mano (5 bp)
+1 DV on Blades attacks

Manuevers: Full Offense, Riposte

The 10 extra BP is being used to raise his body to 5.

And the 12 karma... will raise the athletics group by 1, with 2 left over for a rainy day.

[Vegas]

WinterRat

Rewards Spending

Martial Arts Quality (10bp from Reward A) - Krav Maga
-Take aim becomes free action, ready weapon becomes free action

Maneuvers (5bp from Reward B + 9K (=3bp) from Reward C)
-Blind Fighting
-Disarm
-Evasion
-Off Hand Training (Blades)

Raise Longarms from 2 to 3 (6K from Reward C)
Training Time – Longarms
Cost: 3 x 2 karma = 6 karma
Training time: 6 x 5 hours = 30
Improvement Test: Longarms (2) + Agility(4) -
Agility (4) + Longarms (2) = 6 dice
1 [5] [5] [5] 1 3 Hits:3
30/3 = 10

Blows ALL her reward points.

[WinterRat1]

Business first, philosophy if I have time.

Rewards Review

Grendel - Point allocation approved.

You will not be considered an Initiate until you complete the Sacrifice ordeal (with Ink's help, in this case). I will consider the Sacrifice ordeal your training time for the purposes of the initiation.

As for the Adept Centering metamagic, you will still need to learn the technique through one of the four methods discussed on the wiki's 'Training and Development' section. Let me know how you plan to go about learning the technique.


Mister Juan - Point allocation approved.

You will not be considered an Initiate until you complete the ordeal. Which one do you plan on doing? Depending on the ordeal, I will consider whether or not to count it as your training time for the purposes of the initiation.

As for the Divination metamagic, you will still need to learn the technique through one of the four methods discussed on the wiki's 'Training and Development' section. Let me know how you plan to go about learning the technique.

Voorhees - Point allocation is NOT approved.

Maneuvers do not come free with the purchasing of an advantage, they cost 2 BP per maneuver. The only thing spending 5 BP on a Martial Arts quality does (besides giving you the 1 advantage) is give you the option to purchase up to 2 maneuvers per advantage. You still have to pay for them and do not receive them for free.

Also, if you're going to use karma to raise something, use a format similar to the one Vegas put up to clarify for me.

Please rework your points spending and post a revised version for me to review when you're ready. Thanks.

Vegas - Point allocation approved. Set up a chart somewhere on your character's wiki to track training time as Adamu did.

[WinterRat1]

IC Post Stuff

Grendel and Abbandon - You're both up in your respective storylines.

Vegas - Let me know what kind of information you're looking for and who you're talking to obtain that information. Maybe make a few social skill rolls for me too.

Meriss - Let me know what, if anything you're doing. I'm NPCing Child until Lindt returns, so if you listen to Nevada's instructions, Child will accompany Ink over to Slippy's.

Adamu - You're free to continue in accordance with my earlier replies.

If anyone else needs anything let me know.

[WinterRat1]

Brief Thoughts on Training Time

I don't have time to reply in detail to this, but let me say everyone's concerns about training time are extremely valid. We have characters in LITS (who use the same Training Time rules) with hundreds of karma they can't use because they don't have time to train.

This is deliberate.

Simply put, using a two pronged, interconnected advancement structure (karma and training time) allows me to retain a much higher level of control over your progress. Obviously, you need both to advance, and so I can easily give you one or the other, putting you in a position to advance, but restricting you from actually doing so if I feel it's not in accordance with the desired pace of the game.

Additionally, it allows me to offer different types of rewards (read: bribes) to get you guys to do things for the game without it getting out of hand. If all I ever gave was karma, some people would advance so far ahead of the others the disparity in power levels would be difficult to deal with. By offering karma and/or 'free' training time in some combination, I can more thoroughly micromanage advancement while still giving you rewards you will consider valuable enough to work for.

In short, this system basically makes it impossible for you guys to advance without my explicit, deliberate, planned knowledge. In a campaign that will run into perpetuity (or until you all get killed, whichever happens first), this is very important, to ensure while you are ahead of new players or even each other, the gap never gets so big I'd be running essentially two different campaigns. Does that make sense?

Please note I absolutely have no intention of preventing you from advancing. If anything, I want you to feel like your characters are developing and you're rewarded for efforts you put into the game! I think my rewards structure from game setup and the recent point awards should be proof of that. I simply want to ensure you do it in a methodical, controlled way, and this structure is extraordinarily effective at facilitating that goal.

Yes, you need to plan ahead. Yes, you'll need to make IC posts to train. Yes, you'll need to pursue personal goals like learning metamagic techniques somehow. Aren't those good things to facilitate in a campaign?

No one should ever complain they have nothing to do in this game, because between training, growing the gang, other gang related activity, pursuing your personal goals, feeding your addictions, and trying to just get something to eat without getting killed, there's plenty for you to do. Training is one item on the list of things for you to do with your character's free time, but it's far from the only one, and I will ensure it is by no means the overwhelmingly dominant one. Reassured now?

[Vegas]

WR

Pretty much just getting out to clear her head and make tracks up towards the Steel Demons turf line @ NE 132nd St.

Goal is to backtrack her way through the neighborhood, up 120th Ave. NE through various alleys, making her way up to 119th Pl. NE to climb one of the buildings up there and just get a birds eye view of SD turf.

If she comes across any of the residents that the 8-Balls used to shake down along the way, she'll stop to chat them up and or intimidate them into spilling any info of what's been happening since the HQ blew up, if anyone's been poking around their old turf, what colours are flying, who's trying to shake them down, etc... but she's not gonna seek anyone in particular out, not yet.

Attempting to be selectively stealthy while doing her recon.
Intuition (4) + Shadowing (2) = 5 dice
[5] [6] 2 4 1 [6] Hits:3

For getting info from residents who cross her path along the way. She'll get additional +2 dice if she comes across people she's never met before (First Impression)
Charisma (4) + Intimidation (3) = 7 dice
[5] [5] [5] 1 3 [6] [5] Hits:5

Charisma (4) + Intimidation (3) = 7 dice
3 [6] [6] 1 [6] 3 4 Hits:3

Charisma (4) + Con (3) = 7 dice
[5] 4 4 2 2 [5] 1 Hits:2

Watching over Demons turf.
Intuition (4) + Perception (3) = 7 dice
[6] [5] 1 4 1 1 [5] Hits:3

Hope that's enough to get you started

[Fresno Bob]

Dangit, I knew I did the points stuff wrong. I'll fix it tomorrow.

[Abbandon]

Fool

Ok influence test to make them believe i am going along with their plans.
Charisma 5 + Influence 3 = 8 dice
1, 3, 2, 1, 5, 4, 5, 4 = 2 hits

My plan is to wait until Fool mounts one of the bikes and then pull his knife on that guy and hold him hostage (knife to throat).....

the rest of the plan in case it matters is to drag the hostage off his bike and then make the others drop their weapons and kick them over to him. Then he will make them back up a little and then pull his pistol out and press it into the hostages back. Then he will let up with his knife and shove the guy over to his friends and tell them to start walking. Thats the jist of it.