Down in the Gutter: OOC, The Nuts and Bolts of Staying Alive Options

[adamu]

Dude - Abbandon - at this point it is really tempting to make some crack about Fool living up to his name - but the fact of the matter is that I seriously admire your big brass ones. I don't think anyone saw that coming!

[adamu]

Reassured now?

Absolutely.
100% on board and pumped for the challenge.

[Abbandon]

Dude - Abbandon - at this point it is really tempting to make some crack about Fool living up to his name - but the fact of the matter is that I seriously admire your big brass ones. I don't think anyone saw that coming!

Well I was going to try and recruit them into the ravens. One of those guys kinda mentioned it. But then there comment about ground pounders kinda made me think that was pointless. They wouldnt want to stop being go-gangers. October Ravens are probably going to be ground pounders. So I figured I would do the next logical thing. Jack them and spread the October Raven name hehehe. Hopefully this all plays out nicely and will help develope Fool's personality into both a clown and a psycho.

[WinterRat1]

MAJOR EDIT of Brief Reply to Training Time Post

I edited my ‘Brief Reply to Training Time’ post, but I wanted to put the edit up again here because I felt it was serious enough I wanted to point it out twice.

My original post said:

I don't have to reply in detail to this, but let me say everyone's concerns about training time are extremely valid.

This makes me sound like a major jackass.

What I meant to say was:

I don't have time to reply in detail to this, but let me say everyone's concerns about training time are extremely valid.

I was whipping that post out last night along with about 7 or 8 other posts in two hours before bed and somehow this completely got past me. I apologize to everyone because the original version comes across very differently than what I intended. I hope no offense was taken by anyone. I’m always happy to answer questions as to the methods behind my madness, so please feel free to ask. I certainly didn’t mean to come across as ‘I don’t have to answer to you lowly players. Mwahahahahhahaha!’

Hope that clears things up.

Side Note: Adamu, I never directly responded to your email about how I give karma, but the Training Time post was written in a way where I intended it to at least partially address your question. Specifically, in online games I tend to base my rewards upon what will result in actual advancement, but at a particular pace (i.e. karma + training time) as opposed to merely karma, for the reasons I stated in my post (i.e. more control, more frequent feeling of progress without it being uncontrolled, variety, etc.) Does that answer your question as to my karma giving philosophy?

[Meriss]

@Winter: My main thing is I'm broke. (well not as broke as I was when we started but broke enough) I have my (somewhat lonely) copy of SR But no Aug or Arse. And my FLGS just looks at me and goes "huh, whats Shadowrun?" plebs! Why not get the e-book? I'm broke enough that I can't get anyone to give me credit card. As for your kind offer of Sykpe chat my sched is impossble to predict. So I'll be running Ink at half capacity for quite some time.

Just too review I get:
Cat A: 10BP for what ever
Cat B: 5BP for Martial Arts stuff
Cat C: 15 Karma to be spent as normal.

[Vegas]

Meriss -

My guess is that a lot of us who have the books would be willing to help you out to get your points spent and to take advantage of the new martial arts advantages and maneuvers available. I know I'm willing to try to find things that fit Ink, but you'll have to tell me more about how you see him and what you think it would be cool if he could do. That at least would give me an opportunity to look over the options available to you and suggest a few or give you a jumping off point. Or keep in mind if you want you can convert all your points to karma OR BP and spend them on things you wish you could have given Ink at char gen but couldn't. Either way he comes out ahead.

But yeah, if you want help feel free to PM me or have a little back and forth here for us to help you out on YOUR schedule. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[pragma]

@WR1 specifically
I may have missed this while perusing arsenal, but how do you feel about combining maneuvers. For example, could a character use setup followed by a finishing move with full offense?

@WR1 Et Al
I'm pretty sure this is what I'm going with for Thumper. It may change this evening. If anyone has any input on how effective or ineffective a street fighting brawler who uses dirty tricks this makes him, I'd love to hear it.

Category A
5 BP Arnis De Mano - Do Damage on Disarm (Probably learned a bit from watching Legion)
5 BP Krav Maga - Ready Weapon becomes a free action (War PIt?)

Category B (plus nine karma from category C to make 3 BP)
Maneuvers:
Disarm
Ialjutsu
Setup
Finishing Move

Category C (6 karma Left):
Pistols to 1
Pistols to 2

[Mister Juan]

@WinterRat1
Felix will take the Metaplanar Quest ordeal.

[WinterRat1]

Abbandon -

I join with Adamu and the others in applauding your audacity, but unfortunately for you, they were planning on doing the exact same thing. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ork.gif)

We're going to combat. This is a small scale fight so we'll stay on the boards for this one.

I need the following things from you:

- Initiative Roll, no Surprise on any side. I ruled since you were going to backstab them Fool was ready for trouble, especially since he was planning on starting it.

Keep in mind, if you win Initiative and try to move out of melee combat they can all spend a Free Action to make a free melee attack since you are within 1 meter of all of them. If you take damage you will be intercepted and cannot continue movement. See SR 4 pg. 151 for reference if you need it.

- 3 defense rolls. You need to defend against Pistol Guy's grapple, and both Knife and Chain Guy's respective attacks.

You will have a -0, -1, and -2 penalty successively to your defenses. I will assume you defend against their attacks in Initiative Order unless you specify otherwise. I haven't rolled their initiative yet, so I don't know the order, but you can specify your defense rolls in order of priority. (E.g. you can say you want the -0 vs. Knife, -1 vs. Pistol, -2 vs. Chain)

If Pistol Guy's grapple succeeds both Knife and Chain Guy will receive the +2 Superior Position modifier.

You have no positive or negative modifiers other than the successive attack one I specified above.

Let me know if you have any questions. Good luck, you're going to need it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/vegm.gif)

[WinterRat1]

Meriss - You're only running Ink at 'half capacity' if you choose to. You can still spend your points on non-Augmentation/Arsenal stuff, and if you don't view Ink as much of a melee combatant not having the martial arts options won't hurt him much at all.

Most of Augmentation does not apply to this game anyway, as its materials tend to be a little outside the reach of these characters.

As Vegas said, I have already volunteered to work with you and the others will too. So if you want to use Arsenal you should have plenty of opportunity to do so.

Pragma - You may combined maneuvers if it makes sense/is explicitly stated you may do so. For example, the book mentions Finishing Blow as an effective combination with Set Up. I would allow Full Offense to be combined with either of those. However, you could not, for example, combine Disarm and Full Offense, as the former requires a Full Parry and the latter does not allow you to defend, making them obviously mutually exclusive. Does that answer your question?

Please expand your breakdown of Category C a la Vegas so I can check your math and training time information. Thanks.

Mister Juan - Same thing as to Grendel, you have to complete the Metaplanar Quest before becoming an Initiate, but I will count that as your training time.

Everyone - I think that covers everything owed everyone, if anyone has any questions please let me know.

[Abbandon]

Fool- 1st combat turn
I used the same roll for my defense rolls whichever way it went.
-Encumbred by armor -1 reaction, - 1 agility (I lost a hit off a couple of things for this, ouch)
-vision mode normal(normal,low light, thermo)

Initiative:
Reaction 4(5) + Intuition 4 -1 encumbrance= 8 dice
4, 3, 3, 2, 2, 6, 2, 3 = 1 hits
Final Init = 10

If I win Initiative against gun guy:
IP1:
Complex - Headbutt gun guy in the face
Agility 4 + Unarmed 3 - 1 encumbrance = 6 dice
2, 6, 3, 3, 3, 1 = 1 hits
Final DV= 2S + net hits

Full Defense interrupt Gun guys grapple (-0)
Reaction 4(5) + dodge 4 + dodge 4 -1 encumbrance= 12 dice (+1 for escape artist? lol)
1, 2, 2, 5, 6, 5, 1, 1, 2, 6, 2, 6 = 5 hits

Defend/block knife guy (-1)
Reaction 4(5) + unarmed 3 +dodge 4 - succ attack 1 - 1 encumbrance= 6 dice
2, 6, 4, 5, 5, 5,1, 2, 2, 5 = 5 hits

Defend/block chain guy (-2)
Reaction 4(5) + unarmed 3 + dodge 4 - succ attack 2 - 1 encumbrance= 5 dice
6, 3, 6, 4, 5, 1, 5, 3, 5 = 5 hits

IP2:
used in IP1 for full defense interupt.

If I lose Init against gun guy:
IP1:
Full Defense interrupt Gun guys grapple (-0)
Reaction 4(5) + dodge 4 + dodge 4 -1 encumbrance = 12 dice (+1 for escape artist? lol)
1, 2, 2, 5, 6, 5, 1, 1, 2, 6, 2, 6 = 5 hits

Defend/block knife guy (-1)
Reaction 4(5) + unarmed 3 + dodge 4 - succ attack 1 - 1 encumbrance = 6 dice
2, 6, 4, 5, 5, 5, 1, 2, 2, 5 = 5 hits

Defend/block chain guy (-2)
Reaction 4(5) + unarmed 3 + dodge 4 - succ attack 2 - 1 encumbrance = 5 dice
6, 3, 6, 4, 5, 1, 5, 3, 5 = 5 hits

IP2:
Simple- Ready Flash-pak (offhand)
Simple- activate flash-pak (offhand)

Damage Soaks: (8/6 + 1/1 from dermal plats = 9/7)
impact 7 + body 3 = 10 dice
5, 1, 3, 5, 6, 1, 4, 6, 3, 2 = 4 hits
5, 5, 6, 5, 4, 4, 5, 3, 6, 5 = 7 hits

[adamu]

Does that answer your question as to my karma giving philosophy?

It absolutely does. I appreciate it.

Related question - this might have come up much earlier, but I have a bad memory - are the numbers in the character improvement section of the wiki accurate/intentional? Specifically, the new rating x 10 cost for skill groups, and some of the training time multipliers for different categories? It's totally cool however you want to have them, of course, I just couldn't help thinking there might be a typo or two involved.

And not an unrelated question which I have been meaning to ask and of which I was reminded by Abbandon/Fool's current plight - what is your interpretation of the full-defense rules? Specifically, depending entirely on how one interprets some rather ambiguous grammar, it seems that one Full Defense "action" should apply to all attacks received until one's next pass. That is how I read it, but if I wanted to argue the other way I suppose I could...and so I torment you, our illustrious GM, with this query!

[WinterRat1]

It absolutely does. I appreciate it.

Related question - this might have come up much earlier, but I have a bad memory - are the numbers in the character improvement section of the wiki accurate/intentional? Specifically, the new rating x 10 cost for skill groups, and some of the training time multipliers for different categories? It's totally cool however you want to have them, of course, I just couldn't help thinking there might be a typo or two involved.

And not an unrelated question which I have been meaning to ask and of which I was reminded by Abbandon/Fool's current plight - what is your interpretation of the full-defense rules? Specifically, depending entirely on how one interprets some rather ambiguous grammar, it seems that one Full Defense "action" should apply to all attacks received until one's next pass. That is how I read it, but if I wanted to argue the other way I suppose I could...and so I torment you, our illustrious GM, with this query!

The numbers in the character improvement section of the wiki are both accurate/intentional. At least they're definitely intentional...I'm open to discussion on the accurate part. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Grendel came up with the numbers and I tested them extensively in LITS. I see where some of them might seem a little wonky, but if you run through the different scenarios it actually comes out reasonably fair.

For example the Skill Groups seem harsh, but if you try raising each individual skill you'll find you actually come out ahead time and karma wise if you raise things witih the Skill Group route. Of course, it seems a lot more expensive, but in reality, it isn't. I freely admit it's been a while (about a year) since I tested them. So if you have any specific points and/or supporting arguments regarding any of the numbers, feel free to post them here for Grendel and I to look through.

Abbandon and Full Defense - I have always read the Full Defense rules as applying to all attacks until one's next pass. So Abbandon, you may add Fool's Dodge of 4 one more time to your second and third defenses. Please edit your post above accordingly. If you do not edit it by the time I get home tonight, I will make the rolls for you so I can keep things moving.

[WinterRat1]

Grendel - Go ahead and respond to Frosty's closing comments, and in your same post you can lead the Ravens back to HQ to keep things moving along.

Other People at the Meeting - After the meeting is adjourned it's on you guys to post whatever you want to; once you leave the meeting grounds you're free to post at will.

[adamu]

@Winter - thanx for the quick response. I have no problem with the numbers, just wanted to be sure.

@Abbandon - you owe me one, buddy! (Actually, Winter would have noticed it anyway.)

[Meriss]

@Winter: mkay thanks man. I appreciate it.

So rough outline what is contained in the fabled pages of Arse which an enterprising individual like Ink might find useful?

@All: Any suggestions?

@Vegas: Ink is the artistic type, he is playing it a little closer to the vest than he normally would cause he is not real clear on his role other than "patch up the gangers and make some bank" I was thinking it would be nifty if Sertado's stories inspire him to start taking a serious look into escrima.

[Vegas]

@Meriss

Sent you a semi-long PM, just in case the system is being wonky and you don't get notification (or worse, don't see it at all) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Abbandon]

Well I was useing full defense dodge which would give me 5 extra dice if i changed unarmed to dodge and added another dodge. But I figured you guys were being nice by giving me extra dice anyways. So i added the 4 more dice onto my defense rolls.

Thanks Adamu lol. I never really though about multiple attacks on full defense. It does make sense though that it applies through an IP because if you were being gunned down and you ran for your life you wouldnt be on any less defense the second-fiftieth shot.

[WinterRat1]

Abbandon -

[ Spoiler ]

Combat Turn 1

Initiative Pass 1

11 – Pistol Guy
Free:
Simple 1:
Simple 2:
Complex: Subdual Attack on Fool – 6 hits vs. 5 hits = 1 net hit. No damage.
Movement: None

Note 1: Strength + Net Hits > Fool’s Body, so Fool is immobilized. No actions requiring physical movement allowed and Fool is considered prone for any attacks made against him.

Note 2: To break free requires a Complex Action and Strength + Unarmed Combat test with Threshold of 1 (net hits scored on the grappling test)

10a – Fool
Free:
Simple 1:
Simple 2:
Complex: Used for Full Defense
Movement: None

10b – Knife Guy
Free:
Simple 1:
Simple 2:
Complex: Melee Attack w/Knife on Fool – 6 hits vs. 5 hits = 1 net hit. Damage is 1S.
Movement: None

Note 1: 5P < Impact Armor of 6, so Stun Damage. 5P – 4 Soak hits is 1S damage.

Note 2: 1 EG spent

8 – Chain Guy
Free:
Simple 1:
Simple 2:
Complex: Melee Attack w/Chain on Fool – 2 hits vs. 5 hits = 0 net hits.
Movement: None

Combat Turn 1

Initiative Pass 2

10a – Fool
Free:
Simple 1: Action lost due to being Subdued
Simple 2: Action lost due to being Subdued
Complex:
Movement: None

Go ahead and post your actions and rolls for Combat Turn 2.

You will have a -0, -1, -2 again to your Defense Rolls, which will take place in Initiative Order (no assigning them to targets this time around).

I also want an Unarmed Combat test in case Pistol Guy goes before you and attempts to get a better grip.

You cannot do anything unless you break free first, and I've outlined the details of what will be required above. Take that into account in assigning your actions for IP 1 and IP 2. Let me know if you have any questions.

[WinterRat1]

Abbandon - I still want an IC post for Combat Turn 1 for Fool. Please put one up when you post your rolls and actions for Combat Turn 2.

[WinterRat1]

People at the Meeting -You're all free to post.

[pragma]

Okay, final decisions regarding Thumper's reward:

Category A (10 BP):
5 BP Arnis De Mano - Do damage on called shot to disarm
5 BP Sangre y Acero - Reduce Opponents friends in melee bonus by 1

Category B (5 BP + 3 karma from category C for another 1 BP):
Iaijatsu
Finishing Move
Two-Weapon Style

Category C (6 karma remaining)
Pistols from 0->1 (2 karma)
2 karma * 5 hours is 10 hours training
Learning time test: Agility 6 + Pistols 0 # dice 6 :: 2 6 5 2 4 3 -- 2 hits
Dividing by two we have 5 hours required training

10 karma left over -- probably going to turn 6 karma of this into another maneuver. Let me know how immediate that decision needs to be.

[adamu]

@Winter/pragma -

Since Thumper calls Grack at 12:30ish and I had already ICed Grack through 13:00, I am thinking of two ways to handle it to keep the universe from imploding:
(1) I can just say that when he makes the call there is no good wireless connection to Grack's location in the sewers, but that the message stands by in a router somewhere until Grack enters a good wifi spot, and then goes to his comm, so he will get the message at 13:00 (by which time Thumper (if still unmolested) should be very near Grack's current location in Hammerpack turf.

(2) I can simply adjust the end time on my last IC post to sync up with pragma's. Probably not a big deal, since Grack took his sweet time getting up there, including multiple short naps.
Would rather do (2), but reckon I should check with the GM first....

[Abbandon]

Why dont I get my second IP from turn 1 to try and break his grapple?

[ Spoiler ]

Turn 1 IP2:
free:
simple:
simple:
complex: Break Grapple
Strength 4 + Unarmed 3 - encumbrance 1 = 6 dice
6, 1, 5, 2, 3, 5 = 3 hits
movement: none

[WinterRat1]

Pragma – I just replied to your earlier PM. Are you sure you want that to be your final points spending? You bought the Arnis Disarm Advantage without buying the Disarm maneuver? I want to check before I reply approved or not.

Abbandon – Because I’m an idiot and posted the wrong version of my Combat Posts to the OOC thread. That was the one I had before I realized you should have had a chance to break free in IP 2.

You are correct, you did get an opportunity to break free in IP 2 and you did succeed in doing so (I rolled for you yesterday). So you are currently not Subdued as we enter Combat Turn 2. Thanks for pointing that out.

Go ahead and post your IC post for Combat Turn 1 and your OOC stuff for Combat Turn 2 and we’ll keep moving. Instead of having me edit my IC post, just post Fool breaking out of the Grapple in your IC post.

Adamu – Go ahead and do option 2, that’s fine with me.

Grendel, Mister Juan, Vegas, and anyone else whose point spending was approved by me – Please put your changes up on the wiki.

Vegas – Would you please set up a karma/rewards section so we can track people’s changes/spending, especially since we’ll need to keep track of training time as well? That would be extremely appreciated. I leave it to your discretion how to best organize/set up this section, but I should be able to see what a character did with every reward BP/karma they’ve earned since play started (i.e. I don’t need to know how they spent their character creation reward BP). Let me know if you have any questions and I’ll call you to discuss. Thanks much! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)