Best Munchkin Type Options

[Lindt]

[Eyeless Blond]

I think what really breaks them is the million Y option. It's kinda unfortunate that decks and wired reflexes are so GD expensive; otherwise you could pretty easily balance riggers by simply eliminating the million Y.

[nezumi]

Like Kage said, Riggers definitely can, with their steel lynx and weird hardened armor rules.

Mages do explode the most games, however. The nice thing about riggers are the rules are so complex, and there are easy ways to limit their use, so most people never get into it. Mages are easy to overpower without much understanding of the rules, and are a little more versatile, so you get more crazy super-powered mages.

[Darkest Angel]

Kage, that's illegal, not more than 6pts gained from flaws - you have 8, and no more than 5 edges or 5 flaws, you have 6 flaws.

Anyway, take him out of his roadmaster; and with no essence even with the edge he's going to suck socially and he has no combat skills either. So, not only is he illegal, he's still a one trick pony.

[Kagetenshi]

Reread your book. That's a suggestion, not a rule. If you want to enforce it, just drop both B/Rs--you pay more for repairs, but can pick the skills up post-chargen for less than what the flaws cost me in retrospect.

As for "take out of Roadmaster", how? Why? Look at all the roles the character can fill while inside.

~J

[Darkest Angel]

So your dwarf is going to spend his entire life in the van then? Maybe during a planned run sure, but the rest of the time? In meets? Places you can't take the van? I don't think so. Sometimes - very often in fact - you need that personal touch. Don't tell me all your players go round in together everywhere in groups to ensure the munchkin face always does all the talking and the munchkin sammie always does all the fighting.

Like I said. One trick pony anyway, even if you do ignore the "suggestion".

Edit: Those roles from the van are decking (not that he has a deck), rigging (surveilance/fighting) and what else? Conference calling? :please:

[Kagetenshi]

Dude, ever hear of a difference between "overpowered" and "invulnerable at all times"? I played through a year of gameplay where a decidedly disproportionate amount of the things that needed to be done were done by that character.

The character isn't a Dwarf, either.

Roles from the van: heavy fire support, transportation, surveillance, reconnaissance, tracking (the sensor rules are insane), coordination, electronic warfare, and there was a deck in the group (and the character picked one up pretty soon after chargen).

~J

[Darkest Angel]

Dunno where I got the dwarf from.

Anyway, my point was that he was a one trick pony, and that still stands. In his element he probably is overpowered, but for a hell of a lot of the game he's going to be sat twiddling his thumbs, which substantially reduces his usefulness overall. You have only proven my point.

[Kyoto Kid]

[Kagetenshi]

[Darkest Angel]

You clearly didn't have me as a GM then. :)

One trick pony is to me, doing what is expected of the archetype at the expense of any ability to do anything else. For a Rigger that's scouting, shooting and EW - I expect a Rigger to be good at that, I even expect comms/coordination to be taken care of by the Rigger. However, I expect a character to be good at what his archetype does, but to have some semblance of ability to do other things, particularly combat-in-person and legwork. That character cannot do either of those, so would be severely hampered in any campaign I ran.

[mfb]

i know of any non-contrived way to force a character to work outside their specialty (eg, getting a rigger out of his van) frequently enough to make it a big problem for that character, and i'm not sure i'd enjoy playing in a game where the GM decides to frequently contrive such situations. in any campaign that i would call reasonable, Kage's character would be a jack-of-all-trades, not a one-trick pony.

i mean, sure, once in a while? for spice? absolutely pull the rigger out of the van. but doing it enough that the character becomes a 'one-trick pony' is like making your team do lots of jobs in space, so that the mage is a 'one-trick pony'.

[Darkest Angel]

I'm not sure what you mean? Are you saying face to face meets and legwork are contrived?

Because I'm saying the run as a whole is going to involve that particular Rigger sat with his thumb up his ass in a van until the action starts. Hell, even after the action starts he's not going to be doing much more than passing on directions and watching everyone else. Sure, if the drek hits the fan he's unbeatable, but until that happens he's a support man and nothing else. It's not game breaking.

[mfb]

i'm saying it's contrived to force the rigger to do it. why should the rigger--or anyone who isn't the team's designated face--have to say anything at all to the Johnson, much less roll a social skill? heck, why shouldn't the rigger be sitting in the van during every meet, providing overwatch and countersurveillance?

[Darkest Angel]

[mfb]

i'm not saying a rigger is game-breaking, i'm saying that a rigger can participate meaningfully in just about everything the team does without ever leaving his van. he's not going to have enough free hands to stick his thumb up his butt; he'll be elbow-deep in work pretty much all the time. while the face is talking with the Johnson, the rigger (if he's smart enough to've picked up a deck) will be on the Matrix checking out all the information that the Johnson provides the team with, checking into the Johnson's background, and providing physical overwatch for the meet in case it's some kind of setup. same goes for while the team is doing legwork. and if the rigger is powerful enough to be game-breaking (which is 100% the GM's fault for giving the rigger too much money and too much access to gear), trying to drag the rigger out of his van is going to either a) not work, or b) be contrived.

[Kagetenshi]

I'm going to agree with mfb, and I would point out that I've played a Rigger for the last… three years, I think? Mostly from the safety of my van.

~J

[Wounded Ronin]

If I were a rigger I would try to never leave my van since that's the only place where I'm good at surviving and accomplishing goals. In fact, I would have a mobile home toilet installed, a small electrical range, a little cot, AND I would have generic RV artwork from the 80s on the walls as well. I'd grow flabby and pale and the inside of the van would probably smell like ass. But why would you ever leave if you've got such an affinity for machines?

[Darkest Angel]

Well we'll have to agree to disagree. For me, the meet is too important for any character to miss out on, it's a prime opportunity to ask questions - and those role specific questions are probably going to be missed by the Face, no matter how good he thinks he is, he doesn't know everyone elses job the way they know them.

Same goes for legwork, the supposedly munchkin rigger Kage suggested has no deck, and no informant contacts, so wont be able to do much other than take a few sureptitious pictures as you'd expect him to. That rigger is a one trick pony. That is and was what I've said all along, and as such isn't munchkin, because such focus can easily become a huge weakness. Once he diversifies and ceases to be a one trick pony, those around him who are already rounded will have caught up with their specialisations, so overall the power level isn't really effected.

I suggested getting him out of the van, because img that's not contrived, it's normal that he should leave the van, it's also normal that he should probably end up in a brawl or three as well. It's normal that all the characters all ask around for information on a job they're about to do. This guy can do none of those so would end up pretty bored, and quite likely injured and embarrased after a barfight.

[mfb]

the face isn't going to miss any questions, because the rigger will be in radio contact with everyone on the team. if the rigger thinks of something the face hasn't asked, all he has to do is tell the face to ask it. and even if the rigger does decide to show up in the meat, how is he contributing less than the street sam who took the Uncouth flaw?

Kage has mentioned several times that his rigger acquired a deck fairly soon after chargen. they're not all that expensive, after all. and for what i'm talking about, you don't even need a deck, per se. dropping a thousand bucks on a pocsec is plenty--you're not hacking anything, you're just doing searches. as for informant contacts, so what? getting information from people isn't the rigger's job. helping the rest of his team get information from people is the rigger's job.

the rigger is not a one-trick pony at all, because he can use his skills to help the team do all of the things you're talking about. yes, he will occasionally be at a disadvantage because he's not much use in the meat--he'll get his ass kicked in a brawl, he'll stumble and stammer when he has to talk to someone for some reason. but if he's creative and clever, he won't subject himself to those situations very often, and he won't be bored.

[Kyoto Kid]

...hmmm, My Rigger Dynamo Jo didn't seem to have much trouble "on foot" so to speak. Yeah, she started with a decked out Ford Canada Bison which lasted all of I think three missions when it got hulled by an autocannon. This particular campaign was extremely rough on vehicles soe in the end, when she needed wheels or wings (she was a better pilot than a driver), she usually "borrowed" them and focused more on her drones.

Along with her VCR 2 she also had a Synaptic Accelerator along a few other implants and skills that allowed her to function pretty well when she was not in the "left seat".

[Kagetenshi]

With a VCR-2, you can generally float a decent presence outside of the vehicle. VCR-3 pretty much demands a certain level of purity to take full advantage of it.

~J

[Taran]

Darkest Angel: One thing you can do as a rigger is invest in some sort of telepresence rig. Even something as simple as a radio hooked up to a pocsec gives you a two-way mode of communication at the meet. You want the radio link to be encrypted, of course, but that isn't hard to arrange. And as mfb points out you're also simultaneously doing overwatch for the meet, making sure that the team isn't trapped and killed while they're immobilized. I don't understand why you're so quick to dismiss that; it's a profound contribution, and it's one that riggers can make better than anybody else.

As for legwork, I think you're underrating the power of the long-term stakeout. If your target is a local building (as it so often is), you get to see who comes and who goes, and when. If you have a particular target in mind you can follow them home from a mile up. If you need to get inside, you send in one of your little walkers. If the target's remote you're even better off, since you can send your drones miles from your physical position.

I'm not claiming they're unbeatable. The best tactic I'm familiar with involves magic use: spirits can sneak up invisibly and go corporeal inside the van. If the rigger doesn't have an eye inside, her first sign that anything's up is when she takes damage. Even if she knows about it, she then has to jack out and fight it somehow. This is why the van should contain at least two preteens at all times. The only totally unstoppable rigger strategy that I'm familiar with is the long-range drone with a sniper rifle, and that can easily be held in check with the threat of mutually assured destruction, much like the famous Watcher Attack Pack.

[mfb]

[Kagetenshi]

The only totally unstoppable rigger strategy that I'm familiar with is the long-range drone with a sniper rifle, and that can easily be held in check with the threat of mutually assured destruction, much like the famous Watcher Attack Pack.

I haven't actually designed the drone to do it, but there's the Tiny Missiles of Doom strategy. It's less viable because of the expense involved, but any time you don't need to deal the full 20+D without armor you can probably avoid expending the drone.

MAD applies to this as well, of course. The only really asymmetric killer strategies I can think of off the top of my head are the Decker tricks (because they're against a Host—you can't hack a Decker for paydata, or Validate yourself an account on him) and, the way most people play, the Social Adept of Doom (since most groups have issues with having an NPC roll dice and nonmagically force a PC to do something).

~J