I couldn't find any poll of simular nature to look at, and was wondering what everyones opinion was.

It's unanimous
I think they all work.

Mages are responsible for the most exploded games in my experience as a GM. Then again it could just prove that I'm not good enough at defeating mages.

A full magician with enough grades under his belt can become any other archetype except for adept, due to the relative uselessness of absurdly high magic ratings in SR3. The best munchkin is a magician with the right combination of cyberware and bioware.

Awakened characters are only broken at ultra-high Karma levels, but that puts them out of the munchkin category, since most munchkins don't really have that long of a life expectancy.

Mages get broken late-game. Riggers, on the other hand, are a military-grade archetype in a corp-grade game right out of chargen—their advancement curve just levels off a little sooner.

~J

Every charactery type has the potential to become a munchkin's wet dream. Mages later in the game, Adepts and Riggers easily from start on.

Players, not archetypes, are munchkins.

Now if you asked which archetype a munchkin is likely to choose, then the answer is all of them, any of them can be munchkinized.

But some of them are vastly less easily munchkinized. For example, Deckers have two real approaches that I'm aware of for munchkinizing, both of which are easily and reasonably sealed off: abuse of Validate, and abuse of the paydata rules. Additionally, the lack of familiarity with the Matrix most GMs seem to have lends itself to creating inappropriately difficult hosts, further damaging that archetype's ability to munchkinize. Is there something else I'm missing that they can do?

Contrast with Riggers. Their power is entirely reasonable (certain details may be argued, like the exact workings of vehicle armor), and removing it is not reasonable, but either the Rigger is going to be more powerful than everyone else or Rigging has to be made more expensive, removing the ability of PCs to play viable Riggers. No easy solution.

~J

mage/shamans get my vote because if they're played well, it's hard to counter them with anything but another mage or shaman. there are ways to do it, but the easiest and best way to deal with a mage/shaman is to have a mage/shaman of your own.

well, a mage is nice, but a good rigger can perform every other archtypes builds.

Also, riggers while dependent entirely on nuyen, they can be in the action while their meat is entirely somewhere else, so if a mission is drekked, they will live another day.
at least this is my subjective view.

I amend that to "no easy, decent solution".

~J

Heh.

Adepts IMO are the most munchkin-ized that I see. Tossing 20 dice right out of chargen is pretty much THE definition.

None are inherently broken, they can all be horribly abused, but it always makes them a one trick pony.

Heh, I thought it was incumbent on the one making the extraordinary claim to provide the proof? Take a look at some of the builds that have been posted here, or the rules for Validate, or SotA:64 and the social skill powers.

~J

I'm Kage's GM, and his rigger Alex is redonkulous. She took a deadly wound a few RL years ago that slowed her down a lot (it hasn't healed yet, she's been busy), but she's still a phenomenally effective scout, bullet hose, and (if it ever came down to it) decker. Oh, and a capable face, too. Now that we're 3 years in the other characters have more or less caught up, or at least found their own specialties, but at zero karma she was downright terrifying.

But he wasn't claiming that you could be a hyper-specialist in several different areas - he was only claiming that you can do some significantly overpowering things without overspecializing. I don't take that to mean being a super-marksman who is also a super-decker and a super-face. I take that to mean making a super-marksman who has the normal social, stealth, and other skills to not be a one-trick pony who is useless outside of his specialty.


One example of such a character: the resources: A dwarven sorcerer with the Dragonslayer Totem and a Force: 6 stunbolt focus. Despite all of the dice that he can pump into this attack, and the relative ease of soaking Drain, he can still be well-rounded. With Attributes of 24 (28 after dwarf bonuses), he can have high Intelligence and Willpower without being hobbled in other Attributes, and with 27 skill points, he can take Sorcery: 6 and still have 21 points to spread around on stealth, athletics, social skills, etc. He can have a nice selection of spells, and even get some sustaining foci (such as Force: 1 increase reflexes +3 dice and Force: 5 improved invisibility).

A simpler example: the adept marksman who gets improved ability: 6 in a ranged weapon. That character has only spent 6 skill points, and half of his adept power points. There are plenty of options left for such a character to take - being a marksman will be far from the only thing that such a character can do.

since you think well rounded, or average are overpowering, then I'll stop you right there.

Attributes:

Strength: 2

Body: 2

Quickness: 7

Intelligence: 7

Willpower: 6

Charisma: 6

Reaction: 7 +1d6 (13+4d6 while rigged)

Essence: .2

Bio Index: 0

Pools:

Combat Pool: 10

Control Pool: 13

Karma Pool: 1

Good Karma: 0

Total Karma: 0

Skills:

Stealth 4

Gunnery 6

Etiquette 3

Electronics 6

Electronics B/R 6

Computers 6

Car 6

Car B/R 6

Rotor Aircraft 6

Rotor Aircraft B/R 6

Resources: ¥1,000,000 worth (¥4,000 remaining as of this character revision)

Cyberware:

Vehicle Control Rig (Level 3) (5 Essence)

+6 to Reaction while rigged, +3d6 to Initiative while rigged, TN to default from Vehicle skills to Reaction reduced to +2, -3 to Driving Test TNs.

Cybereye (Alphaware) (.08 Essence) (single)

Replaces organic eye, allows .25 Essence worth of eyemods implanted free (.12 used)

Imagelink (Alphaware) (.08 Essence) (Half in cybereye)

Displays images or text from outside source in field of vision

Microscopic Vision (Alphaware) (.04 Essence) (Half in cybereye)

-2 to applicable Build/Repair tests.

Smartgun-II Components (Alphaware) (.24 Essence)

Sans induction pad, eye display (superseded by Imagelink), Limited Simrig (superseded by VCR simrig), with Rangefinder

Datajack (Alphaware) (X2) (.32)

Allows DNI control of linked devices, allows information to be transferred.

Bioware:


Gear:

Weapons/Ammo:

Great Dragon Launcher

Ammo 1, SS, 2.75 Kg, by rocket/missile.

Great Dragon ATGM (x1)

Intelligence 4, 20D (AV), Blast -5/meter, 2d6 Scatter, 3 Kg

MMG Rounds: 1,000

Sporting Rifle Rounds: 100

Misc.:

Remote-Control Deck (Rating 6)

L5 Encryption

External Transducer

Vehicles:

Ares Roadmaster

Hand. 1/7, Speed 99, Accel. 3, Body 5, Armor 5, Sig. 2, Auto 2, Pilot 1, Sensor 5, Cargo 15, Load 1,209, Seating 2+1b, Entry 2d+1x, Fuel Diesel (250l), Econ. 5.2 km/l

Electronics Port x4 (Remote-Control Deck, R6 deck w/L5 Encryption installed) (Cyberdeck port, no deck installed) (Satellite Dish, fixed-base) (Radio, Flux 6, Rating 6 radio installed), Concealed Armor, Rigger Adaptation, Remote-Control Interface, Drive-By-Wire 3, Power Amplifiers (L6), Contingency Maneuver Controls 3, Small Pop-Up Remote Turret (Empty, Smartlink-II), Photovoltaic Chameleon Paint, Runflat Tires (5/3 armor), L5 Encryption

Lone Star Strato-9 (X5)

Hand. 3, Speed 100, Accel. 9, Body 2, Armor 0, Sig. 4, Auto 0, Pilot 2, Sensor 5, Cargo 1, Load 20, Fuel Jet (220 l), Econ. .4 km/l, S/B 5 min., VTOL

ECM 2, External Fixed Hardpoint w/ MMG (Gas Vent 3, 500 rounds ammo, Smartlink-II), Remote-Control Interface, Rigger Adaptation, L5 Encryption

(One with Ares MGL-12 instead of MMG)

A. S. LDSD-41

Hand. 4, Speed 75, Accel. 5, Body 2, Armor 3, Sig. 10, Auto 0, Pilot 3, Sensor 1, Cargo 3, Load 14, Fuel Electric (35 PF), Econ. 5 km/PF, S/B 5 min., VTOL

SunCell Power, Remote Control Interface, Rigger Adaptation, Remote Micro-turret (Remington 950 (10 rounds, SA, 9S), Smartlink-II) L5 Encryption

Renraku Arachnoid

Hand. 3/3, Speed 2, Body 0, Sig 12, Auto 0, Pilot 1, Sensor 1, Cargo 0, Load 0, Fuel E (10 PF), Econ .5 KM/PF


Lifestyles:

High, 4 months

Low, 5 months

Contacts:

(L2, Mechanic/vehicle/drone parts seller)

(L1, Weapons dealer)

Edges/Flaws:

Sensitive Neural Structure (-4): reduces Willpower by 2 for purposes of resisting dump shock/BTLs/black IC.

Bad Karma (-5): 2X normal karma required to increase karma pool.

Cursed Karma (-6): When karma pool is used, roll 1d6: on a 1, effect is opposite of intention.

Phobia (Common, Severe) (Large dogs) (-5):

Allergy (Common, Mild) (Sunlight) (-3):

Allergy (Common, Severe) (Certain common commercial cleaning substances) (-5):

Good Reputation (2): -2 to social skill tests.

Exceptional Attribute (Quickness) (2): RML changed to 7, Racial Max to 11

Extra Attribute Point (Intelligence) (2): Intelligence increased to 7

Connected (Vehicle and Drone parts) (5)

Vehicle Empathy (2): -1 to Handling while in physical contact with a vehicle.

There you go.

~J

I think what really breaks them is the million Y option. It's kinda unfortunate that decks and wired reflexes are so GD expensive; otherwise you could pretty easily balance riggers by simply eliminating the million Y.

Like Kage said, Riggers definitely can, with their steel lynx and weird hardened armor rules.

Mages do explode the most games, however. The nice thing about riggers are the rules are so complex, and there are easy ways to limit their use, so most people never get into it. Mages are easy to overpower without much understanding of the rules, and are a little more versatile, so you get more crazy super-powered mages.

Kage, that's illegal, not more than 6pts gained from flaws - you have 8, and no more than 5 edges or 5 flaws, you have 6 flaws.

Anyway, take him out of his roadmaster; and with no essence even with the edge he's going to suck socially and he has no combat skills either. So, not only is he illegal, he's still a one trick pony.

Reread your book. That's a suggestion, not a rule. If you want to enforce it, just drop both B/Rs--you pay more for repairs, but can pick the skills up post-chargen for less than what the flaws cost me in retrospect.

As for "take out of Roadmaster", how? Why? Look at all the roles the character can fill while inside.

~J

So your dwarf is going to spend his entire life in the van then? Maybe during a planned run sure, but the rest of the time? In meets? Places you can't take the van? I don't think so. Sometimes - very often in fact - you need that personal touch. Don't tell me all your players go round in together everywhere in groups to ensure the munchkin face always does all the talking and the munchkin sammie always does all the fighting.

Like I said. One trick pony anyway, even if you do ignore the "suggestion".

Edit: Those roles from the van are decking (not that he has a deck), rigging (surveilance/fighting) and what else? Conference calling?

Dude, ever hear of a difference between "overpowered" and "invulnerable at all times"? I played through a year of gameplay where a decidedly disproportionate amount of the things that needed to be done were done by that character.

The character isn't a Dwarf, either.

Roles from the van: heavy fire support, transportation, surveillance, reconnaissance, tracking (the sensor rules are insane), coordination, electronic warfare, and there was a deck in the group (and the character picked one up pretty soon after chargen).

~J

Dunno where I got the dwarf from.

Anyway, my point was that he was a one trick pony, and that still stands. In his element he probably is overpowered, but for a hell of a lot of the game he's going to be sat twiddling his thumbs, which substantially reduces his usefulness overall. You have only proven my point.

You clearly didn't have me as a GM then.

One trick pony is to me, doing what is expected of the archetype at the expense of any ability to do anything else. For a Rigger that's scouting, shooting and EW - I expect a Rigger to be good at that, I even expect comms/coordination to be taken care of by the Rigger. However, I expect a character to be good at what his archetype does, but to have some semblance of ability to do other things, particularly combat-in-person and legwork. That character cannot do either of those, so would be severely hampered in any campaign I ran.

i know of any non-contrived way to force a character to work outside their specialty (eg, getting a rigger out of his van) frequently enough to make it a big problem for that character, and i'm not sure i'd enjoy playing in a game where the GM decides to frequently contrive such situations. in any campaign that i would call reasonable, Kage's character would be a jack-of-all-trades, not a one-trick pony.

i mean, sure, once in a while? for spice? absolutely pull the rigger out of the van. but doing it enough that the character becomes a 'one-trick pony' is like making your team do lots of jobs in space, so that the mage is a 'one-trick pony'.

I'm not sure what you mean? Are you saying face to face meets and legwork are contrived?

Because I'm saying the run as a whole is going to involve that particular Rigger sat with his thumb up his ass in a van until the action starts. Hell, even after the action starts he's not going to be doing much more than passing on directions and watching everyone else. Sure, if the drek hits the fan he's unbeatable, but until that happens he's a support man and nothing else. It's not game breaking.

i'm saying it's contrived to force the rigger to do it. why should the rigger--or anyone who isn't the team's designated face--have to say anything at all to the Johnson, much less roll a social skill? heck, why shouldn't the rigger be sitting in the van during every meet, providing overwatch and countersurveillance?

i'm not saying a rigger is game-breaking, i'm saying that a rigger can participate meaningfully in just about everything the team does without ever leaving his van. he's not going to have enough free hands to stick his thumb up his butt; he'll be elbow-deep in work pretty much all the time. while the face is talking with the Johnson, the rigger (if he's smart enough to've picked up a deck) will be on the Matrix checking out all the information that the Johnson provides the team with, checking into the Johnson's background, and providing physical overwatch for the meet in case it's some kind of setup. same goes for while the team is doing legwork. and if the rigger is powerful enough to be game-breaking (which is 100% the GM's fault for giving the rigger too much money and too much access to gear), trying to drag the rigger out of his van is going to either a) not work, or b) be contrived.

I'm going to agree with mfb, and I would point out that I've played a Rigger for the last… three years, I think? Mostly from the safety of my van.

~J

If I were a rigger I would try to never leave my van since that's the only place where I'm good at surviving and accomplishing goals. In fact, I would have a mobile home toilet installed, a small electrical range, a little cot, AND I would have generic RV artwork from the 80s on the walls as well. I'd grow flabby and pale and the inside of the van would probably smell like ass. But why would you ever leave if you've got such an affinity for machines?

Well we'll have to agree to disagree. For me, the meet is too important for any character to miss out on, it's a prime opportunity to ask questions - and those role specific questions are probably going to be missed by the Face, no matter how good he thinks he is, he doesn't know everyone elses job the way they know them.

Same goes for legwork, the supposedly munchkin rigger Kage suggested has no deck, and no informant contacts, so wont be able to do much other than take a few sureptitious pictures as you'd expect him to. That rigger is a one trick pony. That is and was what I've said all along, and as such isn't munchkin, because such focus can easily become a huge weakness. Once he diversifies and ceases to be a one trick pony, those around him who are already rounded will have caught up with their specialisations, so overall the power level isn't really effected.

I suggested getting him out of the van, because img that's not contrived, it's normal that he should leave the van, it's also normal that he should probably end up in a brawl or three as well. It's normal that all the characters all ask around for information on a job they're about to do. This guy can do none of those so would end up pretty bored, and quite likely injured and embarrased after a barfight.

the face isn't going to miss any questions, because the rigger will be in radio contact with everyone on the team. if the rigger thinks of something the face hasn't asked, all he has to do is tell the face to ask it. and even if the rigger does decide to show up in the meat, how is he contributing less than the street sam who took the Uncouth flaw?

Kage has mentioned several times that his rigger acquired a deck fairly soon after chargen. they're not all that expensive, after all. and for what i'm talking about, you don't even need a deck, per se. dropping a thousand bucks on a pocsec is plenty--you're not hacking anything, you're just doing searches. as for informant contacts, so what? getting information from people isn't the rigger's job. helping the rest of his team get information from people is the rigger's job.

the rigger is not a one-trick pony at all, because he can use his skills to help the team do all of the things you're talking about. yes, he will occasionally be at a disadvantage because he's not much use in the meat--he'll get his ass kicked in a brawl, he'll stumble and stammer when he has to talk to someone for some reason. but if he's creative and clever, he won't subject himself to those situations very often, and he won't be bored.

...hmmm, My Rigger Dynamo Jo didn't seem to have much trouble "on foot" so to speak. Yeah, she started with a decked out Ford Canada Bison which lasted all of I think three missions when it got hulled by an autocannon. This particular campaign was extremely rough on vehicles soe in the end, when she needed wheels or wings (she was a better pilot than a driver), she usually "borrowed" them and focused more on her drones.

Along with her VCR 2 she also had a Synaptic Accelerator along a few other implants and skills that allowed her to function pretty well when she was not in the "left seat".

With a VCR-2, you can generally float a decent presence outside of the vehicle. VCR-3 pretty much demands a certain level of purity to take full advantage of it.

~J

Darkest Angel: One thing you can do as a rigger is invest in some sort of telepresence rig. Even something as simple as a radio hooked up to a pocsec gives you a two-way mode of communication at the meet. You want the radio link to be encrypted, of course, but that isn't hard to arrange. And as mfb points out you're also simultaneously doing overwatch for the meet, making sure that the team isn't trapped and killed while they're immobilized. I don't understand why you're so quick to dismiss that; it's a profound contribution, and it's one that riggers can make better than anybody else.

As for legwork, I think you're underrating the power of the long-term stakeout. If your target is a local building (as it so often is), you get to see who comes and who goes, and when. If you have a particular target in mind you can follow them home from a mile up. If you need to get inside, you send in one of your little walkers. If the target's remote you're even better off, since you can send your drones miles from your physical position.

I'm not claiming they're unbeatable. The best tactic I'm familiar with involves magic use: spirits can sneak up invisibly and go corporeal inside the van. If the rigger doesn't have an eye inside, her first sign that anything's up is when she takes damage. Even if she knows about it, she then has to jack out and fight it somehow. This is why the van should contain at least two preteens at all times. The only totally unstoppable rigger strategy that I'm familiar with is the long-range drone with a sniper rifle, and that can easily be held in check with the threat of mutually assured destruction, much like the famous Watcher Attack Pack.

I haven't actually designed the drone to do it, but there's the Tiny Missiles of Doom strategy. It's less viable because of the expense involved, but any time you don't need to deal the full 20+D without armor you can probably avoid expending the drone.

MAD applies to this as well, of course. The only really asymmetric killer strategies I can think of off the top of my head are the Decker tricks (because they're against a Host—you can't hack a Decker for paydata, or Validate yourself an account on him) and, the way most people play, the Social Adept of Doom (since most groups have issues with having an NPC roll dice and nonmagically force a PC to do something).

~J