 definative flechette ruling, one (1) dead horse, ready for burial |
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  Jun 19 2007, 09:25 PM
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#1
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Target  Group: Members Posts: 49 Joined: 28-April 07 Member No.: 11,557  |
Alright, I've searched the forums and found a number of answers to this, all different. It doesn't help that the rules (corrected fourth printing) are contradictory... how does flechette ammo work?
As of current printing and errata, flechette ammo applies a +2 DV and +5 AP (impact). The rules claim this is applied to the stats already in the weapon tables, but if I look at any of them, I only see +3 AP applied (Remington Roomsweeper and Remington 990 go from -1 AP to +2 AP). Likewise, the shotgun choke rules on p144 contradict the "correct" values as well. I found one thread that claimed that flechette ammo turns the AP into +5, full stop, but this is contradictory to the overall ammo rules. |
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Jun 19 2007, 10:20 PM
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#2
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
It is an old rules bug that this is not mentioned in the BBB.
Unfortunetely it is FanPros (or now IMRs) policy to not change broken BBB stuff. |
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Jun 19 2007, 10:30 PM
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#3
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 168 Joined: 23-April 07 From: Aurora, CO Member No.: 11,514 |
QFT! I just rule that the flachette changes the damage code from the base. So Mr. predator does 5p -1ap with regular ammo. With flachette it is now 7p +4 ap. Shotguns I would rule the same way. Some of the flachette only weapons (sliver gun for instance) break this even more by doing more damage than the normal flachette counterpart. (it does 8p with +5 i suppose.... I guess this would be special case for the weapon since that is all it can fire. |
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Jun 19 2007, 10:34 PM
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#4
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,288 Joined: 4-September 06 From: The Scandinavian Federation Member No.: 9,300 |
I'd say just use +5 AP and add that to the weapon's base DV (if it has two). Thus the 990 should be 9P and +4 AP with modified stats.
The Slivergun is a bit more tricky - not sure what the new book says but it shoud be 8P +5 AP. |
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Jun 19 2007, 10:36 PM
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#5
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,159 Joined: 12-April 07 From: Ork Underground Member No.: 11,440 |
Seems someone is incorrect. :)
From the Shadowrun Errata 1.5 p. 313 Flechette Rounds [4] The third sentence should read: “ They also raise the e effective value of Impact armor (AP +5).� There is post with a shotgun using the various rules for shotguns. http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...7735&hl=shotgun Here is one about the settings of chokes http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...7659&hl=shotgun |
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Jun 20 2007, 12:09 AM
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#6
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Target Group: Members Posts: 49 Joined: 28-April 07 Member No.: 11,557 |
Right, well, hence my confusion. Wearz, you seem to think that the +5 is a flat +5 in all your examples. Others use it to modify the original AP. In either case, the shotgun rules and weapons tables appear to use old flechette rules, whereas the errata and my book changes flechette to "raise effective value of Impact armor (AP +5)". To me, it appears as though I should raise all the AP values for shotgun spreads by +3, and adjust all the precomputed flechette AP values on the weapons charts by +2. Unless the authors really DID mean that flechette AP becomes +5. I suppose that would make the tables actually make sense, since the old flechette value was +2 AP and it appears to replace the weapon's old AP value in the broken charts. Of course, they should have explicitly stated that, like they do with S-n-S damage. Maybe I'll just do that. Now that I've talked through it, Wearz seems to be on the right track. |
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Jun 20 2007, 12:15 AM
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#7
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,159 Joined: 12-April 07 From: Ork Underground Member No.: 11,440 |
Yes you have it.
AP is +5 not -2+5=+3. A fully automatic shotgun like the CMBT with all the recoil mods, set on narrow choke narrow long burst, is a very bad thing to be the target of. Luck to you in your game. :) WMS |
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Jun 21 2007, 08:03 PM
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#8
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
Sp APDS is also only -4 even in s sniper rifle? Not really.
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Jun 22 2007, 07:17 PM
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#9
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,579 Joined: 30-May 06 From: SoCal Member No.: 8,626 |
Maybe this will make more sense. The shotguns and slivergun are already coded for Flechette ammo. In this case you raise their exsisting AP mod by 3. If you loaded Flechette into a Ruger Superwarhawk, which has an innate AP of -2, it would go to +3. Or in an Ares Predator IV which has an AP of -1 it would go to +4. |
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Jun 22 2007, 07:46 PM
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#10
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 375 Joined: 15-November 06 From: Salem, Dwarven Hell (Tir Tairngier) Member No.: 9,865 |
Using the Mossberg as an example, ap+/- is an absolute value, not a modification. Of course that is the opposite of how explosive and apds are normally handled (I think). So it seems like the devs need to clarify the point as both approaches are correct in the current system.
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Jun 22 2007, 07:54 PM
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#11
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 777 Joined: 22-November 06 Member No.: 9,934 |
we handled it by looking at the lethality, +2 DV, +2 AP makes Flechette rounds the same as Lethal Gel rounds... |
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Jun 22 2007, 07:54 PM
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#12
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 168 Joined: 23-April 07 From: Aurora, CO Member No.: 11,514 |
After further consideration with my group we said it was a modifier and not absolute value... even with flachette only weapons such as the mossberg. So the basic shotgun does 7P with -1 AP with flachettes it does 9p with +4AP therefore the mossberg would do 9p +4AP. You are essentially trading the ability to fire more than one type of ammo (the 990) for the ability to have burst fire in your shotgun. |
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