Astral Transparency? Options

[BlackRabite]

An interesting question cropped up when talking to a friend of mine earlier today and I thought I would bring it to you all.

Neither myself or my friend had a source book handy during the conversation and we were unsure whether our question was covered in the rules. I didn't feel like waiting until I got home to find out.

We came to the conclusion that sight on the astral plane was not based on light bouncing off of objects and entering the eyes, since you don't have meat eyes when projecting. If this is true it means that there are no modifiers for various types of lighting, it also would mean that you cannot see through transparent objects when Projecting.

If you see a dull reflection of mundane objects then a transparent window would just be a featureless gray plane, wouldn't it? Since there is no light to pass through it your vision would stop at the object. Does anyone know if there are rules, or any instances that state how vision physically works in the astral plane?

[djinni]

basically yeah...you got it...

[kzt]

That is true by RAW, but I'm not sure how popular it is. I've seen previous threads on this and there was unhappiness expressed at glass being opaque.

[DireRadiant]

Essentially correct in that Astral Perception != Vision. It's another sense. It's often described and used in terms of being sight, since that's a sense most of us can understand and model. But it isn't sight, it's an astral sense. It could just as easily be taste or smell or tactile sense. Hence visual modifiers and visual effects you perceive in the mundane view of the world aren't the same as astral sense and perception modifiers.

So the fact of whether it's light or dark might not affect what you perceive in any way, but might add the flavor or emotional context of it being day or night. You might astrally sense everything exactly the same whether it's night or day, but there may be an emotional tone that informs you it's night or day.

[sunnyside]

I want to say in previous editions there was a caveat for windows, however I don't think they have it in 4th. Up to you how you itnerprit it. In the astral there isn't any reason that any random thing couldn't be transparent. Due to the impact of expectations on magic it's possible windows being transperant would just be a part of their pattern that carries over to the astral.

I'd say GM call for now.

[2bit]

despite it not being vision, it's very closely related to vision and not just as a metaphor, since real life visual barriers impede it. You can't "sense" someone behind a wall.

[DireRadiant]

[DireRadiant]

Since this will inevitably come to the "where does the books say this"

p. 182

"Astral perception is a psychic
sense that is not linked to
the character’s physical sight."

[Darkest Angel]

I remember a post from a very long time ago, I think it may even have been on the old white forums, by one Stephen Kenson and he said windows are transparent on the astral, and he should know.

[Demerzel]

A very long time ago would be in reference to a different game.

[FriendoftheDork]

Seems like the OP got it right to me also. That's how I play it anyway.

Oh and how well you see is determined by number of auras. For example, a crowd of people will make it very difficulty to see each aura.

[Darkest Angel]

I say if you could see the person, you can see the aura, this makes windows transparent and gets round envirosealed armour. Afterall, you can cast spells through windows and use binoculars and those fibre optic cameras in SOTA 63 to enhance LOS for spell casting. If a window poses no impedance for spell casting, it shouldn't impede astral sight. Otherwise you have bizzare situations where you need to be perceiving to cast, either because you're using quickening or have a geas, but strangely can't target the spell because you're wearing glasses or helmet with a face visor, or are in a building or vehicle.

[odinson]

I would say that it's nothing to do with sight. All you sense is magic. You can tell if something is astrally active because it would feel different than stuff that isn't. Everything on the physical plane has a representation on the astral. The windows astral form would block you from sensing what was behind it. You could probably argue that since it's just a feeling that you might be able to feel what was on the other side of the window if your assensing was high enough but that wouldn't be raw.

[reemul]

This was directly addressed, though in a less-than-clear way, in Street Magic:

[Demonseed Elite]

Transparent windows are not transparent in the Astral. Transparency is a physical characteristic based on light, and doesn't carry into the Astral Plane.

Wearing glasses or a visored helmet won't impede astral perception, because astral perception has no relation to your physical eyes. Being inside a building or a vehicle could impede spell targeting with astral perception, which is one reason why astral perception is not always the best method for spell targeting.

Also, just because a window is opaque in the Astral Plane doesn't mean a magician can't sense an aura on the other side of it. An Assensing Test would allow for this. Knowing an aura is there, however, isn't the same as targeting it; just like you might know someone is around a corner in the physical world but if you can't see them, they are still behind cover.

[Darkest Angel]

[Moon-Hawk]

[Mr. Unpronouncea...]

Contacts, glasses, goggles, facemasks, or full helmets should not be an issue.

One doesn't astrally percieve from their eyes at all - this is why blind magicians and ghouls can still astrally percieve.

[Moon-Hawk]

[Eryk the Red]

I don't know all the details of mage masks, but I think it's ok to say that they are special. Because they are special in a lot of ways.

That said, i'd probably assume they are quite large anyway.

[Mr. Unpronouncea...]

I'd guess special...

We don't really get an explanation of how they work.

It could be something as simple as a non-transparent cover thus preventing the mage from casting spells without astrally percieving combined with some device to detect and/or prevent astral perception/projection - even though tech doesn't play well with magic there's probably some kind of recognizable brain activity associated with shifting perceptions...or maybe pumpkin-head isn't too far off for the lowest-of-the-low tech solutions (an algae suspension might play havoc with astral perception, what with that extra aura right in the mage's face.)

[Moon-Hawk]

Special was supposed to be the joke answer. If the answer is special it needs to be defined what and why.
And before you ask, the reason is because otherwise it raises the question of, if you can't perceive out, can you perceive in? Logic says no. In which case players are going to start making anti-magic armor made entirely out of special. And even if it does only block perception one-way, then the damn PCs will just turn special inside-out and make armor out of that.
Special is a very big can of worms without a very careful explanation.

[Moon-Hawk]

[Mr. Unpronouncea...]

Like I said - I've never seen a canon version of what a mage-mask is.

Could easily be sensory overload - few mages are going to manage to cast past a -2 (astral percieving) -6 (equivalent of a flash-pak) penalty.

[Moon-Hawk]