An interesting question cropped up when talking to a friend of mine earlier today and I thought I would bring it to you all.
Neither myself or my friend had a source book handy during the conversation and we were unsure whether our question was covered in the rules. I didn't feel like waiting until I got home to find out.
We came to the conclusion that sight on the astral plane was not based on light bouncing off of objects and entering the eyes, since you don't have meat eyes when projecting. If this is true it means that there are no modifiers for various types of lighting, it also would mean that you cannot see through transparent objects when Projecting.
If you see a dull reflection of mundane objects then a transparent window would just be a featureless gray plane, wouldn't it? Since there is no light to pass through it your vision would stop at the object. Does anyone know if there are rules, or any instances that state how vision physically works in the astral plane?
Full Version: Astral Transparency?
basically yeah...you got it...
That is true by RAW, but I'm not sure how popular it is. I've seen previous threads on this and there was unhappiness expressed at glass being opaque.
Essentially correct in that Astral Perception != Vision. It's another sense. It's often described and used in terms of being sight, since that's a sense most of us can understand and model. But it isn't sight, it's an astral sense. It could just as easily be taste or smell or tactile sense. Hence visual modifiers and visual effects you perceive in the mundane view of the world aren't the same as astral sense and perception modifiers.
So the fact of whether it's light or dark might not affect what you perceive in any way, but might add the flavor or emotional context of it being day or night. You might astrally sense everything exactly the same whether it's night or day, but there may be an emotional tone that informs you it's night or day.
So the fact of whether it's light or dark might not affect what you perceive in any way, but might add the flavor or emotional context of it being day or night. You might astrally sense everything exactly the same whether it's night or day, but there may be an emotional tone that informs you it's night or day.
I want to say in previous editions there was a caveat for windows, however I don't think they have it in 4th. Up to you how you itnerprit it. In the astral there isn't any reason that any random thing couldn't be transparent. Due to the impact of expectations on magic it's possible windows being transperant would just be a part of their pattern that carries over to the astral.
I'd say GM call for now.
I'd say GM call for now.
despite it not being vision, it's very closely related to vision and not just as a metaphor, since real life visual barriers impede it. You can't "sense" someone behind a wall.
| QUOTE (2bit @ Jun 20 2007, 05:29 PM) |
| despite it not being vision, it's very closely related to vision and not just as a metaphor, since real life visual barriers impede it. You can't "sense" someone behind a wall. |
That is an assumption. There is no reason an Assensing test cannot reveal that "behind that barrier is an empty space"
Example to map form one of your physical senses. Aren't there ways besides vision you can tell if there is space behind the visual barrier?
e.g. I can't see beyond this wall, but it "sounds" hollow?
Since this will inevitably come to the "where does the books say this"
p. 182
"Astral perception is a psychic
sense that is not linked to
the character’s physical sight."
p. 182
"Astral perception is a psychic
sense that is not linked to
the character’s physical sight."
I remember a post from a very long time ago, I think it may even have been on the old white forums, by one Stephen Kenson and he said windows are transparent on the astral, and he should know.
A very long time ago would be in reference to a different game.
Seems like the OP got it right to me also. That's how I play it anyway.
Oh and how well you see is determined by number of auras. For example, a crowd of people will make it very difficulty to see each aura.
Oh and how well you see is determined by number of auras. For example, a crowd of people will make it very difficulty to see each aura.
I say if you could see the person, you can see the aura, this makes windows transparent and gets round envirosealed armour. Afterall, you can cast spells through windows and use binoculars and those fibre optic cameras in SOTA 63 to enhance LOS for spell casting. If a window poses no impedance for spell casting, it shouldn't impede astral sight. Otherwise you have bizzare situations where you need to be perceiving to cast, either because you're using quickening or have a geas, but strangely can't target the spell because you're wearing glasses or helmet with a face visor, or are in a building or vehicle.
I would say that it's nothing to do with sight. All you sense is magic. You can tell if something is astrally active because it would feel different than stuff that isn't. Everything on the physical plane has a representation on the astral. The windows astral form would block you from sensing what was behind it. You could probably argue that since it's just a feeling that you might be able to feel what was on the other side of the window if your assensing was high enough but that wouldn't be raw.
This was directly addressed, though in a less-than-clear way, in Street Magic:
| QUOTE |
| p.114 Determining cover works the same way on the astral plane as it does in the physical world (see pp. 140–141, SR4). Shadows of physical objects in the astral plane may be drab and insubstantial, but they are still opaque and can prevent targeting. Items that are transparent or mirrored in the real world (like a car window) simply impair visibility as astral shadows. Since there are no ranged weapons on the astral plane and spell targeting depends on seeing your target, hiding behind physical shadows works as well as hiding behind a vibrant aura. |
So, windows are apparently shadow-y and opaque. I think they degrade astral visibility as "shadow clutter", which is a modifier listed with a value from -1 to -4 in the table on p.114. But the rules just aren't that clear to me. Sorry.
Transparent windows are not transparent in the Astral. Transparency is a physical characteristic based on light, and doesn't carry into the Astral Plane.
Wearing glasses or a visored helmet won't impede astral perception, because astral perception has no relation to your physical eyes. Being inside a building or a vehicle could impede spell targeting with astral perception, which is one reason why astral perception is not always the best method for spell targeting.
Also, just because a window is opaque in the Astral Plane doesn't mean a magician can't sense an aura on the other side of it. An Assensing Test would allow for this. Knowing an aura is there, however, isn't the same as targeting it; just like you might know someone is around a corner in the physical world but if you can't see them, they are still behind cover.
Wearing glasses or a visored helmet won't impede astral perception, because astral perception has no relation to your physical eyes. Being inside a building or a vehicle could impede spell targeting with astral perception, which is one reason why astral perception is not always the best method for spell targeting.
Also, just because a window is opaque in the Astral Plane doesn't mean a magician can't sense an aura on the other side of it. An Assensing Test would allow for this. Knowing an aura is there, however, isn't the same as targeting it; just like you might know someone is around a corner in the physical world but if you can't see them, they are still behind cover.
| QUOTE (Demonseed Elite) |
| Wearing glasses or a visored helmet won't impede astral perception, because astral perception has no relation to your physical eyes. |
Perhaps not, but it completely covers your head in something, which as far as you are concerned is astrally opaque. Does this mean that if you were perceiving while wearing a magemask you could target spells?
| QUOTE (Darkest Angel) | ||
Perhaps not, but it completely covers your head in something, which as far as you are concerned is astrally opaque. Does this mean that if you were perceiving while wearing a magemask you could target spells? |
Uh-oh.
Maybe you can still perceive with a helmet on because you perceive from the edge of your aura, which extends past the helmet.
The magemask is extremely bulky, and thus envelops your head in padding, roughly the size of a large pumpkin.
Contacts, glasses, goggles, facemasks, or full helmets should not be an issue.
One doesn't astrally percieve from their eyes at all - this is why blind magicians and ghouls can still astrally percieve.
One doesn't astrally percieve from their eyes at all - this is why blind magicians and ghouls can still astrally percieve.
| QUOTE (Mr. Unpronounceable) |
| Contacts, glasses, goggles, facemasks, or full helmets should not be an issue. One doesn't astrally percieve from their eyes at all - this is why blind magicians and ghouls can still astrally percieve. |
But what about magemasks?
Are they
a) not able to block astral perception after all
b) the size of large pumpkins
c) special
I don't know all the details of mage masks, but I think it's ok to say that they are special. Because they are special in a lot of ways.
That said, i'd probably assume they are quite large anyway.
That said, i'd probably assume they are quite large anyway.
I'd guess special...
We don't really get an explanation of how they work.
It could be something as simple as a non-transparent cover thus preventing the mage from casting spells without astrally percieving combined with some device to detect and/or prevent astral perception/projection - even though tech doesn't play well with magic there's probably some kind of recognizable brain activity associated with shifting perceptions...or maybe pumpkin-head isn't too far off for the lowest-of-the-low tech solutions (an algae suspension might play havoc with astral perception, what with that extra aura right in the mage's face.)
We don't really get an explanation of how they work.
It could be something as simple as a non-transparent cover thus preventing the mage from casting spells without astrally percieving combined with some device to detect and/or prevent astral perception/projection - even though tech doesn't play well with magic there's probably some kind of recognizable brain activity associated with shifting perceptions...or maybe pumpkin-head isn't too far off for the lowest-of-the-low tech solutions (an algae suspension might play havoc with astral perception, what with that extra aura right in the mage's face.)
Special was supposed to be the joke answer. If the answer is special it needs to be defined what and why.
And before you ask, the reason is because otherwise it raises the question of, if you can't perceive out, can you perceive in? Logic says no. In which case players are going to start making anti-magic armor made entirely out of special. And even if it does only block perception one-way, then the damn PCs will just turn special inside-out and make armor out of that.
Special is a very big can of worms without a very careful explanation.
And before you ask, the reason is because otherwise it raises the question of, if you can't perceive out, can you perceive in? Logic says no. In which case players are going to start making anti-magic armor made entirely out of special. And even if it does only block perception one-way, then the damn PCs will just turn special inside-out and make armor out of that.
Special is a very big can of worms without a very careful explanation.
| QUOTE (Mr. Unpronounceable) |
| even though tech doesn't play well with magic there's probably some kind of recognizable brain activity associated with shifting perceptions |
That could be half of an explanation for special that I could live with. But then what does it do? Shock the hell out of them? Hmmm, I like that.
Like I said - I've never seen a canon version of what a mage-mask is.
Could easily be sensory overload - few mages are going to manage to cast past a -2 (astral percieving) -6 (equivalent of a flash-pak) penalty.
Could easily be sensory overload - few mages are going to manage to cast past a -2 (astral percieving) -6 (equivalent of a flash-pak) penalty.
| QUOTE (Mr. Unpronounceable) |
| few mages are going to manage to cast past a -2 (astral percieving) -6 (equivalent of a flash-pak) penalty. |
True. But there is a huge difference between a -8 penalty and impossible. Especially to a min-maxed mage with a spellcasting pool of 15+. (I'm assuming out-of-the-box non-initiate character with all of their foci taken away; the pool could be much, much larger)
Yeah, but a mage who can cast past a -8 modifier and still be effective isn't going to be a prisoner.
He's either free, or he's got a cortex-bomb installed and is working for your team now...or else.
He's either free, or he's got a cortex-bomb installed and is working for your team now...or else.
The question about the Astral Perception being impaired by a helmet is paradoxal... since the Astral Perception don´t start in the eyes, we need, at first, try to state from were (in the body) it's start.
Since the astral perception isn't vision at all, talking about opaque and transparency stops making any sense. For simplicity sake glass is transparent (or semi transparent) in my games... i guess that rulling that glass are opaque on Astral Perception creates many problems.
In fact... separating Astral Perception from the Eyes (note that i mean "eyes" not "vision") creates many problems.
Since the astral perception isn't vision at all, talking about opaque and transparency stops making any sense. For simplicity sake glass is transparent (or semi transparent) in my games... i guess that rulling that glass are opaque on Astral Perception creates many problems.
In fact... separating Astral Perception from the Eyes (note that i mean "eyes" not "vision") creates many problems.
Not really - for instance, matrix perception isn't really sight either...it's just the way the brain interprets the new input, not to mention a really easy shortcut to describe it in real-life terms.
Frankly, a lot of mages (and deckers/hackers/technomancers) would probably describe their special senses by sound, feel, scent and taste nearly as often as vision...but that would be extrodinarily hard to describe in text. Vision is easier, since as a group, people are very vision-centric, even though certain other senses (like scent for instance) have a quite strong, if subtle, effect on daily life.
Frankly, a lot of mages (and deckers/hackers/technomancers) would probably describe their special senses by sound, feel, scent and taste nearly as often as vision...but that would be extrodinarily hard to describe in text. Vision is easier, since as a group, people are very vision-centric, even though certain other senses (like scent for instance) have a quite strong, if subtle, effect on daily life.
| QUOTE |
| Not really - for instance, matrix perception isn't really sight either...it's just the way the brain interprets the new input, not to mention a really easy shortcut to describe it in real-life terms. |
But, as any sense, you need to have a "input point" on your body for that (and it´s about this when i mentioned "eyes" on the other post). Sound came from the ears, vision from the eyes, touch from the skin, where did Astral Sense came from? I´m asking that, so i know with part of my body i must throw through the corner to "see" or "perceive" what's behind it.
| QUOTE |
| Frankly, a lot of mages (and deckers/hackers/technomancers) would probably describe their special senses by sound, feel, scent and taste nearly as often as vision...but that would be extrodinarily hard to describe in text. Vision is easier, since as a group, people are very vision-centric, even though certain other senses (like scent for instance) have a quite strong, if subtle, effect on daily life. |
What a call "DareDevil/Mattew Murdock" effect... where you see "all" his senses (except for vision) converted to vision. But with DD you don´t have the problem if "input point" since it´s determined that his senses came, more or less, from his entire body... because that he can "see" behind walls and 360 degrees around him (and even, by some writes extrapolation, identify colors by the "temperature" and track people by the smell of strong perfumes).
Why do you need a physical point to astrally percieve from?
I feel that's a flawed assumption, because where, on your physical body, do you percieve while astrally projecting? Presumably this is the same sixth sense, just no longer anchored to your physical form.
Astral scent, touch, sound, taste, and vision are all one new sense that gets interpreted as the old mundane senses - but as a new sense, it would have a new sensory organ, which is non-physical, and thus not tied to a specific point.
I feel that's a flawed assumption, because where, on your physical body, do you percieve while astrally projecting? Presumably this is the same sixth sense, just no longer anchored to your physical form.
Astral scent, touch, sound, taste, and vision are all one new sense that gets interpreted as the old mundane senses - but as a new sense, it would have a new sensory organ, which is non-physical, and thus not tied to a specific point.
| QUOTE (Mr. Unpronounceable) |
| Why do you need a physical point to astrally percieve from? I feel that's a flawed assumption, because where, on your physical body, do you percieve while astrally projecting? Presumably this is the same sixth sense, just no longer anchored to your physical form. Astral scent, touch, sound, taste, and vision are all one new sense that gets interpreted as the old mundane senses - but as a new sense, it would have a new sensory organ, which is non-physical, and thus not tied to a specific point. |
great point. before i read this, i was chuckling over the thought of a blind mage removing his blindfold/eyepatches/etc., baring his empty sockets or white irises and claiming "i can't see with this crap on, guys. seriously."
| QUOTE (Mr. Unpronounceable @ Jun 22 2007, 05:03 PM) |
| Why do you need a physical point to astrally percieve from? |
When you're astraly projecting, great, you can think that way... but you'll start to have problens thinking that way when talking about Astral Perception.
Let's exemple this: I'm in a corridor and can't see (normal sight) aftar a corner, but i guess that, maybe, there is a guard there. I "turn on" my Astral Perception... but, anyway, i will need to go in the corner to "see" or to "perceive" what existe after the corner... since my body will be there (i´m not astraly projecting... just using astral perception) i can be shoot by the guard.
The question is... which part of my body must "pass" through the corner (and, so, be seen and be shooted by the guard there) for me to see what is behind the corner?? I will have to put my head on the corner to "see"? Or just being "near" the corner will be enough to "sense" what is there? Can i just put my hand through the corner and that will be enough to "see" what's there?
Maybe, thinking the way you think (and i'm not saying you're wrong... in fact, i think you're right... i'm just saying that the "eyes" think simplify matter for "gaming") i can just "turn on" my Astral Perception and, even without walk to the corner, "feel" the guard there? This way... everything about Transparency glass... or even walls being opaque or not to astral perception just goes for nothing?
I hope i've made myself clear... my english not so good.
| QUOTE |
| great point. before i read this, i was chuckling over the thought of a blind mage removing his blindfold/eyepatches/etc., baring his empty sockets or white irises and claiming "i can't see with this crap on, guys. seriously." |
In my games i will have no problem with a mage using a blindfold/eyepatch... he will "Astral Perceive" through the patch without a problem... but, anyway, he will "see" astraly based on the point on the point where his eyes would be.
Again... i just agree with Mr. Unpronounceable, especialy when talking about Astral Projection... i just think that this eyes thing makes things clearer for Astral Perception.
| QUOTE (Moon-Hawk) |
| But what about magemasks? Are they a) not able to block astral perception after all b) the size of large pumpkins c) special |
They just haven't really been addressed yet in SR4.
Also, if you had to connect a sensory organ to Astral Perception, it would be the aura. But that's not really a great analogy.
In the case of that example you stated, if the astrally perceiving character is trying to use his astral perception in conjunction with a physical sense, I'd rule that he needs to also move his physical sense into "line of sight" also. At least if he doesn't want to suffer additional penalties on the shot.
In the case of that example you stated, if the astrally perceiving character is trying to use his astral perception in conjunction with a physical sense, I'd rule that he needs to also move his physical sense into "line of sight" also. At least if he doesn't want to suffer additional penalties on the shot.
| QUOTE (Demonseed Elite) | ||
They just haven't really been addressed yet in SR4. |
Well, in SR3 they're a plastic hood with built in gag tube and white noise generator. MitS doesn't say much beyond 'completely cuts off LOS and incurs mental task penalties'. So they're certainly not made of special, and there are specific rules allowing "automatic" magical actions with a willpower test, but the example action is projection, not perception.
That statement of 'completely cuts of LOS' is very telling, as the implication is that you can perceive with a willpower test (given that if you're wearing one, all you have is time so any shmoe should manage it eventually), but it wont do you any good as they completely block LOS.
There's also the issue of quickening, that requires you to use perception, and given you can quicken LOS spells, and LOS can be enhanced by using binoculars, by extention you can use binoculars to enhance the LOS of your astral perception. Equally, there isn't anything saying you cannot quicken a spell through a window.
I wouldn't connect perception with the eyes directly, but I would say that the part of the brain that creates the image 'overlays it' where vision should be, hense the notion of lumping it with vision, as oppose to sound where you might have 'voices' or other background noise telling you things. It is a magical awareness, so I don't think wearing a blindfold or sack over your head would really effect you (unless it was a spacious sack), so a magemask probably is pretty big. I'd say there probably is a line beyond which you can't see outside once your head is covered, presumably the edge of your aura round your head, but say you were wearing a hazmat suit, you could still perceive through the visor, because you expect to be able to see through it, and that is why you can; magic.
I'm just saying that magemasks may function differently in SR4. Since the mechanics of magic in general were changed going from SR3 to SR4, things like magemasks may have to change also.
| QUOTE |
| There's also the issue of quickening, that requires you to use perception, and given you can quicken LOS spells, and LOS can be enhanced by using binoculars, by extention you can use binoculars to enhance the LOS of your astral perception. Equally, there isn't anything saying you cannot quicken a spell through a window. |
Do you mean Quickening requires astral perception? I'm not seeing this in SR4, but if it's there, please point it out to me. I do see that the magician can end any quickened spell he can astrally perceive (p. 190, SR4), but that would follow all the existing rules for astral perception.
Physical spellcasting line of sight can be enhanced by optical magnification. It does not say that astral perception is enhanced by optical magnification. It isn't. Cybereyes also enhance your physical spellcasting line of sight, but they won't do anything for your astral perception.
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