 Astral Transparency? |
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 Jun 22 2007, 09:24 PM
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#26
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 829 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 770  |
Yeah, but a mage who can cast past a -8 modifier and still be effective isn't going to be a prisoner.
He's either free, or he's got a cortex-bomb installed and is working for your team now...or else. |
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Jun 22 2007, 09:32 PM
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#27
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Target Group: Members Posts: 90 Joined: 25-May 07 From: Florianópolis, Brasil Member No.: 11,747 |
The question about the Astral Perception being impaired by a helmet is paradoxal... since the Astral Perception don´t start in the eyes, we need, at first, try to state from were (in the body) it's start.
Since the astral perception isn't vision at all, talking about opaque and transparency stops making any sense. For simplicity sake glass is transparent (or semi transparent) in my games... i guess that rulling that glass are opaque on Astral Perception creates many problems. In fact... separating Astral Perception from the Eyes (note that i mean "eyes" not "vision") creates many problems. |
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Jun 22 2007, 09:41 PM
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#28
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 829 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 770 |
Not really - for instance, matrix perception isn't really sight either...it's just the way the brain interprets the new input, not to mention a really easy shortcut to describe it in real-life terms.
Frankly, a lot of mages (and deckers/hackers/technomancers) would probably describe their special senses by sound, feel, scent and taste nearly as often as vision...but that would be extrodinarily hard to describe in text. Vision is easier, since as a group, people are very vision-centric, even though certain other senses (like scent for instance) have a quite strong, if subtle, effect on daily life. |
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Jun 22 2007, 09:47 PM
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#29
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Target Group: Members Posts: 90 Joined: 25-May 07 From: Florianópolis, Brasil Member No.: 11,747 |
But, as any sense, you need to have a "input point" on your body for that (and it´s about this when i mentioned "eyes" on the other post). Sound came from the ears, vision from the eyes, touch from the skin, where did Astral Sense came from? I´m asking that, so i know with part of my body i must throw through the corner to "see" or "perceive" what's behind it.
What a call "DareDevil/Mattew Murdock" effect... where you see "all" his senses (except for vision) converted to vision. But with DD you don´t have the problem if "input point" since it´s determined that his senses came, more or less, from his entire body... because that he can "see" behind walls and 360 degrees around him (and even, by some writes extrapolation, identify colors by the "temperature" and track people by the smell of strong perfumes). |
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Jun 22 2007, 10:03 PM
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#30
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 829 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 770 |
Why do you need a physical point to astrally percieve from?
I feel that's a flawed assumption, because where, on your physical body, do you percieve while astrally projecting? Presumably this is the same sixth sense, just no longer anchored to your physical form. Astral scent, touch, sound, taste, and vision are all one new sense that gets interpreted as the old mundane senses - but as a new sense, it would have a new sensory organ, which is non-physical, and thus not tied to a specific point. |
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Jun 23 2007, 01:00 AM
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#31
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Target Group: Members Posts: 22 Joined: 30-May 07 Member No.: 11,788 |
great point. before i read this, i was chuckling over the thought of a blind mage removing his blindfold/eyepatches/etc., baring his empty sockets or white irises and claiming "i can't see with this crap on, guys. seriously." |
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Jun 23 2007, 01:38 AM
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#32
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Target Group: Members Posts: 90 Joined: 25-May 07 From: Florianópolis, Brasil Member No.: 11,747 |
When you're astraly projecting, great, you can think that way... but you'll start to have problens thinking that way when talking about Astral Perception. Let's exemple this: I'm in a corridor and can't see (normal sight) aftar a corner, but i guess that, maybe, there is a guard there. I "turn on" my Astral Perception... but, anyway, i will need to go in the corner to "see" or to "perceive" what existe after the corner... since my body will be there (i´m not astraly projecting... just using astral perception) i can be shoot by the guard. The question is... which part of my body must "pass" through the corner (and, so, be seen and be shooted by the guard there) for me to see what is behind the corner?? I will have to put my head on the corner to "see"? Or just being "near" the corner will be enough to "sense" what is there? Can i just put my hand through the corner and that will be enough to "see" what's there? Maybe, thinking the way you think (and i'm not saying you're wrong... in fact, i think you're right... i'm just saying that the "eyes" think simplify matter for "gaming") i can just "turn on" my Astral Perception and, even without walk to the corner, "feel" the guard there? This way... everything about Transparency glass... or even walls being opaque or not to astral perception just goes for nothing? I hope i've made myself clear... my english not so good.
In my games i will have no problem with a mage using a blindfold/eyepatch... he will "Astral Perceive" through the patch without a problem... but, anyway, he will "see" astraly based on the point on the point where his eyes would be. Again... i just agree with Mr. Unpronounceable, especialy when talking about Astral Projection... i just think that this eyes thing makes things clearer for Astral Perception. |
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Jun 23 2007, 03:21 AM
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#33
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,078 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 67 |
They just haven't really been addressed yet in SR4. |
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Jun 23 2007, 03:35 AM
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#34
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,078 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 67 |
Also, if you had to connect a sensory organ to Astral Perception, it would be the aura. But that's not really a great analogy.
In the case of that example you stated, if the astrally perceiving character is trying to use his astral perception in conjunction with a physical sense, I'd rule that he needs to also move his physical sense into "line of sight" also. At least if he doesn't want to suffer additional penalties on the shot. |
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Jun 23 2007, 02:31 PM
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#35
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 546 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Manchester, England Member No.: 1,062 |
Well, in SR3 they're a plastic hood with built in gag tube and white noise generator. MitS doesn't say much beyond 'completely cuts off LOS and incurs mental task penalties'. So they're certainly not made of special, and there are specific rules allowing "automatic" magical actions with a willpower test, but the example action is projection, not perception. That statement of 'completely cuts of LOS' is very telling, as the implication is that you can perceive with a willpower test (given that if you're wearing one, all you have is time so any shmoe should manage it eventually), but it wont do you any good as they completely block LOS. There's also the issue of quickening, that requires you to use perception, and given you can quicken LOS spells, and LOS can be enhanced by using binoculars, by extention you can use binoculars to enhance the LOS of your astral perception. Equally, there isn't anything saying you cannot quicken a spell through a window. I wouldn't connect perception with the eyes directly, but I would say that the part of the brain that creates the image 'overlays it' where vision should be, hense the notion of lumping it with vision, as oppose to sound where you might have 'voices' or other background noise telling you things. It is a magical awareness, so I don't think wearing a blindfold or sack over your head would really effect you (unless it was a spacious sack), so a magemask probably is pretty big. I'd say there probably is a line beyond which you can't see outside once your head is covered, presumably the edge of your aura round your head, but say you were wearing a hazmat suit, you could still perceive through the visor, because you expect to be able to see through it, and that is why you can; magic. |
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Jun 23 2007, 03:13 PM
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#36
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,078 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 67 |
I'm just saying that magemasks may function differently in SR4. Since the mechanics of magic in general were changed going from SR3 to SR4, things like magemasks may have to change also.
Do you mean Quickening requires astral perception? I'm not seeing this in SR4, but if it's there, please point it out to me. I do see that the magician can end any quickened spell he can astrally perceive (p. 190, SR4), but that would follow all the existing rules for astral perception. Physical spellcasting line of sight can be enhanced by optical magnification. It does not say that astral perception is enhanced by optical magnification. It isn't. Cybereyes also enhance your physical spellcasting line of sight, but they won't do anything for your astral perception. |
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