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> Emergence Review, (Some spoilers. Kept to a few, but...)
Talia Invierno
post Jul 13 2007, 02:58 PM
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QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig)
No. Somehow, you desperatly cling to the human beleif that a 'living', selfaware matrix has the need for 'something' more - while the human brain shows otherwise every day.

... so maybe SR self-aware Matrix entities are superior to the greater part of humankind, at least in the will to grow?
QUOTE
Very shortly: What is the situation thousands of years later, after the diaries of Leta had been excavated?

The answer to my question first, as it can be answered in a short paragraph. Answering yours might take two.
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Rotbart van Dain...
post Jul 13 2007, 03:24 PM
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QUOTE (Talia Invierno)
The answer to my question first, as it can be answered in a short paragraph.  Answering yours might take two.

Look, the fact that I countered your questions with anyother one, wrapping them up, should have told you that I'm not in the mood for quizzes. ;)
So I'm going to answer the combined question and leave it to you of screaming disagreement.

While there are a lot of different agendas, the real reasons for the people come down to: power. That is achieved through holding control of spice. This is even illustrated in the far future, where spice production does not rely on sandworms anymore.
To Leto, that power was only the means to an end: To encertain the continued existance of mankind.
Of course, that doesn't kept him from adding in the very selfish agenda of ensuring his place in history... through multiple ways.
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hobgoblin
post Jul 13 2007, 03:41 PM
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someone hand me a 2x4...
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Talia Invierno
post Jul 13 2007, 04:20 PM
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[/ducks and spins]

You opened the door to the question, Rotbart van Dainig -- and I focus on that question over yours because it has direct relevance to the new nature of AIs. (Otherwise I'd have dropped this long ago as off-topic.)
QUOTE
While there are a lot of different agendas, the real reasons for the people come down to: power. That is achieved through holding control of spice. This is even illustrated in the far future, where spice production does not rely on sandworms anymore.
To Leto, that power was only the means to an end: To encertain the continued existance of mankind.
Of course, that doesn't kept him from adding in the very selfish agenda of ensuring his place in history... through multiple ways.

So you didn't see any difference whatsoever in the nature of the sandworms themselves?

Edit -- wait, the internal contradiction in your answer might help:
QUOTE
While there are a lot of different agendas, the real reasons for the people come down to: power. That is achieved through holding control of spice. This is even illustrated in the far future, where spice production does not rely on sandworms anymore.

If spice production in the far future doesn't rely on sandworms anymore: why was it necessary in the far future to destroy them all (but one) -- again?
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Moon-Hawk
post Jul 13 2007, 04:33 PM
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QUOTE (Talia Invierno)
So you didn't see any difference whatsoever in the nature of the sandworms themselves?

Being coy doesn't further the discussion. If you feel that there is a difference in the nature of sandworms, please simply state your point clearly and unambiguously.
Thanks.
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Talia Invierno
post Jul 13 2007, 04:37 PM
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Moon-Hawk, it would be inappropriate of me to do more than ask questions and try to refine apparent contradiction, since I've already been told I'm not "able to perceive the underlying concepts of fiction". Thus, I leave direct explanation to the expert. If you perceive this as being coy, so be it.

You'll notice that whatever else, no one else has stepped in either, either to elaborate or to find a new direction for examination. And besides, the posts are now a good deal shorter!
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Rotbart van Dain...
post Jul 13 2007, 04:45 PM
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QUOTE (Talia Invierno)
So you didn't see any difference whatsoever in the nature of the sandworms themselves?

Keep in mind that the manipulation of belief was something that Leto mastered, everyone before him issed the important fact to successfully transplant them, and within his reign, there any such attempt was futile, as was storing spice.
Of course, the last book has it's own quirk, and then there's the problem to escape from the will of someone to deterministically create the future. Then again, you seem to misunderstand 'necessity', too.
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Talia Invierno
post Jul 13 2007, 04:48 PM
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QUOTE
Keep in mind that the manipulation of belief was something that Leto mastered, everyone before him issed the important fact to successfully transplant them, and within his reign, there any such attempt was futile, as was storing spice.
Of course, the last book has it's own quirk, and then there's the problem to escape from the will of someone to deterministically create the future.

All right. Let's look at one book fact that Leto did not manipulate: Sheeana is able to manipulate -- to communicate with -- the worms. This was never the case with the Fremen of old. What had changed?
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Rotbart van Dain...
post Jul 13 2007, 04:52 PM
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QUOTE (Talia Invierno)
This was never the case with the Fremen of old.

Really? Then, explain to me - how did Leto was able to become one with them? That was never the case before, too.
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Talia Invierno
post Jul 13 2007, 04:59 PM
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So it is relevant that Leto became one of them.

Children of Dune : Leto's cells are supercharged with melange, attractive to mindless sandtrout. They take on the shape of his skin. In time, they change him -- but he also changes them. At one point in God Emperor he directly states to his secret diaries that his brain was no longer where it used to be -- and thus that a pearl of his consciousness has become part of every future sandworm. From the merging of human and sandtrout, the God Emperor is born. From the shattering of that merge, the greater sandworm is born.

Leto died. Does Leto still exist?
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Rotbart van Dain...
post Jul 13 2007, 05:12 PM
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QUOTE (Talia Invierno)
So it is relevant that Leto became one of them.

No, it's the point - heridity.
Merging of cells. Cell division. Offsprings.

Instilling a part of ones dreams into them.
Usually called children. Now... please tell us:

Where does the fact, that this whole thing is build on the concept of achieving immortality through ones children, "makes it absolutely clear that you haven't read it (or maybe haven't read it with understanding)." as you so eloquently put it?
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Talia Invierno
post Jul 13 2007, 05:22 PM
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Well, your original analysis of Leto and sandworms was:
QUOTE
Sure. It's the old belief of acheiving immortality through ones children (by genetic memory, in Dune... an over-the-top concept not featured in SR), enchanced by religious engineering that Dune is all about.

It's important to note, while your children are alive, you aren't - and they are not you.

... but the sandworms are Leto. Not his dreams, not his ideals: himself. As you yourself point out, that's not the standard immortality through children.

Now ... let's look at this from an Emergence pov, playing with possible parallels:

From the very first Shadowrun novel we had the AIs. Then some of those AIs took some children and introduced them to the Deep Resonance: and in doing so, maybe some part of those children became incorporated into the AIs themselves. (Certainly they became tools for the AIs to wield.) Then the Deus incident, where an AI is believed to have been killed -- and then is revealed to have been only in hiding, only to succumb with all AIs to the Second Crash. (Borrow Paul Muad'Dib for the Deus parallel, here.)

And now: what exactly are the technomancers? who sprang into existence at the very moment of the AIs' shattering and demise?
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Rotbart van Dain...
post Jul 13 2007, 05:25 PM
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QUOTE (Talia Invierno)
... but the sandworms are Leto.

No. They aren't more Leto than Leto is Paul. The point you missed is the take on the genetic memory in Dune.
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Talia Invierno
post Jul 13 2007, 05:28 PM
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I acknowledge that Dune involves genetic memory. I disagree that that's the point wrt Emergence ... which is, after all, what we're discussing here.

And as to the sandworms actually being Leto (albeit in different form and consciousness): that's the conclusion the Bene Gesserit sisterhood comes to.
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Rotbart van Dain...
post Jul 13 2007, 05:33 PM
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QUOTE (Talia Invierno)
Then some of those AIs took some children and introduced them to the Deep Resonance: and in doing so, maybe some part of those children became incorporated into the AIs themselves.

While there were AI-created Otaku, most were created by the Deep Resonance directly - which is a whole other cattle of fish.
They were parts of the AIs neither.

QUOTE (Talia Invierno)
what exactly are the technomancers? who sprang into existence at the very moment of the AIs' shattering and demise?

Like Otaku, people transformed by the now non-deep Resonance.
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Rotbart van Dain...
post Jul 13 2007, 05:35 PM
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QUOTE (Talia Invierno)
And as to the sandworms actually being Leto (albeit in different form and consciousness): that's the conclusion the Bene Gesserit sisterhood comes to.

Yeah, he kind of traumatized them. :P

QUOTE (Talia Invierno)
I disagree that that's the point wrt Emergence ... which is, after all, what we're discussing here.

Actually, that was AH's point... the destruction of the AIs and the Dissonance worm had impact on the Deep Resonance, and turned it into Resonance, while at the same time, the X-factor happened much more often than before.
But that's a bit more like pollination. ;)
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Talia Invierno
post Jul 13 2007, 05:39 PM
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Ah. Here's one of the Chapterhouse quotes I was looking for about the shimmering net: another aspect of universal consciousness that explicitly transcends genetics. (My own books are packed away.) The relevance of the shimmering net quotes is that even though Duncan Idaho does not have cellular samples from every incarnation, he does have the memory of each incarnation. Thus -- something more than simple genetic memory.
QUOTE
"They had a Tleilaxu Master, too," Marty said. "I saw him when they went under the net. I would have so liked to study another Master."

"Don't see why. Always whistling at us, always making it necessary to stomp them down. I don't like treating Masters that way and you know it! If it weren't for them ..."

"They're not gods, Daniel."

"Neither are we."

"I still think you let them escape."

"What would you have said to the Master, anyway?" Daniel asked.

"I was going to joke when he asked who we were. They always ask that. I was going to say: 'What did you expect, God Himself with a flowing beard?' "

Daniel chuckled. "That would've been funny. They have such a hard time accepting that Face Dancers can be independent of them."

"I don't see why. It's a natural consequence. They gave us the power to absorb the memories and experiences of other people. Gather enough of those and ..."

"It's personas we take, Marty."

"Whatever. The Masters should've known we would gather enough of them one day to make our own decisions about our own future."

Still looking for the exact description of the shimmering net, which is explicitly seen to be a way of transcending space in obtaining knowledge and enforcing control (sound familiar?); but I'll add this snippet from the same general area:
QUOTE
Gather up enough people and you get a big ball of knowledge, Daniel!

Given that it's Herbert writing, that's all it is in and of itself: just a big ball of knowledge ... and nothing more.
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Rotbart van Dain...
post Jul 13 2007, 05:44 PM
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QUOTE (Talia Invierno @ Jul 13 2007, 07:39 PM)
that even though Duncan Idaho does not have cellular samples from every incarnation, he does have the memory of each incarnation.  Thus -- something more than simple genetic memory.

Indeed, but he's a clone and the sandworms after Leto are not.

Of course, that concept is something completly alien to SR. In fact, clones aren't even magical if their original is...
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Talia Invierno
post Jul 13 2007, 05:49 PM
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And what exactly are programs to an AI? if not equivalent-to-genetic coding, body-instruction, and reproduction?
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Talia Invierno
post Jul 13 2007, 06:07 PM
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... separately, because non-genetic (independent of explicit coding?):

The Bene Gesserit also have one non-genetic way of transferring memories: sharing. It was first introduced in Dune (with the wild Reverend Mother), and returned to in Heretics and Chapterhouse.

Thus, even in Bene Gesserit, memory is not exclusively genetic, but somehow transcends physical nature.

Again, we return to the question of what exactly the technomancers are. The superficial answer of
QUOTE
Like Otaku, people transformed by the now non-deep Resonance.

is accurate enough as far as it goes -- but explains exactly nothing.
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Rotbart van Dain...
post Jul 13 2007, 06:14 PM
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QUOTE (Talia Invierno)
Thus, even in Bene Gesserit, memory is not exclusively genetic, but somehow transcends physical nature.

Which is usually called magic. Like seeing the future, and stuff. Spice is the superdrug. ;)

QUOTE (Talia Invierno)
Again, we return to the question of what exactly the technomancers are.

No, we advance to the question 'What is the (Deep) Resonance?'.
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Ancient History
post Jul 13 2007, 06:21 PM
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Ach, now that ye'all've been having a good time of it, you might think to read Paterson's Guide to Matrix Entities again...or possibly for the first time.
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Talia Invierno
post Jul 13 2007, 06:27 PM
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QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig)
QUOTE (Talia Invierno)
Thus, even in Bene Gesserit, memory is not exclusively genetic, but somehow transcends physical nature.

Which is usually called magic. Like seeing the future, and stuff. Spice is the superdrug. ;)

While Herbert uses the metaphor of magic more than once --
QUOTE
When are the witches to be trusted? Never! The dark side of the magic universe belongs to the Bene Gesserit and we must reject them.

-- nothing in there that can't be explained by currently-known physics (for technique) and social sciences (for virtually everything else). And Herbert knew that too :)
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig)
QUOTE (Talia Invierno)
Again, we return to the question of what exactly the technomancers are.

No, we advance to the question 'What is the (Deep) Resonance?'.

Different sides of the same question, wouldn't you think? Or do you think that creator and created are utterly isolated and separate of each other?

AH -- terrifying, aren't we? ;) And it will be the first time for me: honestly, I'm not at all familiar with it.
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Rotbart van Dain...
post Jul 13 2007, 06:50 PM
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QUOTE (Talia Invierno)
nothing in there that can't be explained by currently-known physics (for technique) and social sciences (for virtually everything else).

Not for perceiving the future or sharing memories.

QUOTE (Talia Invierno)
Different sides of the same question, wouldn't you think?

More like the root of the question.

QUOTE (Ancient History)
Ach, now that ye'all've been having a good time of it, you might think to read Paterson's Guide to Matrix Entities again...or possibly for the first time.

At least he wasn't eaten by a tree.
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Talia Invierno
post Jul 13 2007, 07:03 PM
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QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig)
QUOTE (Talia Invierno)
nothing in there that can't be explained by currently-known physics (for technique) and social sciences (for virtually everything else).

Not for perceiving the future or sharing memories.

Actually, for those too. Once wrote an extended essay on the physics of the three different forms of Dune space-time sensory manipulation -- an interesting exercise, considering that typewriters don't have integral signs -- and while the biology wasn't there at the time, it's been creeping steadily closer ever since.
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig)
QUOTE (Talia Invierno)
Different sides of the same question, wouldn't you think?

More like the root of the question.

Agreed. If I find those "shimmering net" quotations, I might post them because they do sound very much like the modern Matrix/AI/nodes description given in-thread here -- but otherwise a good point of agreement to leave it at, perhaps. :)
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