 Jerusalem 2070, Any info anywhere? |
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 Jun 24 2007, 04:27 AM
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#1
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 355 Joined: 3-October 05 From: Ann Arbor, MI Member No.: 7,803  |
I'm going to be starting a SR4 game soon, and I was curious if Jerusalem is ever mentioned in any of the sourcebooks (old or new)? If not, anyone have any ideas on what may be going on there astrally, physically, and politically?
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Jun 24 2007, 04:42 AM
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#2
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,748 Joined: 5-July 02 Member No.: 2,935 |
Shadows of Asia has a section on it while covering the Middle East.
The Old City has been subject to random magical and spirit activity ever since the Awakening, forcing periodic evactuations. In 2046 the UN stepped in and took control, setting up an Ecumenical Council made up of Jews, Muslims and Christians that opened the city to all religions claiming it as holy. Architectural restrictions have been relaxed somewhat, allowing structures higher than the Temple Mount to be built so long as they maintain certain aesthic guidelines. Magical weirdness (mana warps, astral rifts, incursions of shedim, etc.) continues unabated over some of the most sacred sites like the Western Wall and the Holy Sepulchre. The big syndicate in town is a Jewish branch of the Vory v Zakone called Maagen David Adom, and the big corporate players are the Frankfurt Bank Association, DeBeers-Omnitech, Ares Macrotechnology and Esprit. The Uzi IV is still the local favorite. For Quabbalistic magical traditions, check out Street Magic. |
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Jun 24 2007, 05:11 AM
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#3
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Street Doc Group: Admin Posts: 3,508 Joined: 2-March 04 From: Neverwhere Member No.: 6,114 |
This has always seemed unlikely to me. Many hardline Jews believe that the Al-Aksa Mosque is built where the Temple of Solomon needs to be rebuilt to usher in the Messiah. The Muslims don't take kindly to Jews demanding the demolition of one of their three holiest sites (Mohammed supposedly ascended to heaven on the Temple Mount). |
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Jun 24 2007, 05:59 AM
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#4
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Cybernetic Blood Mage Group: Members Posts: 3,472 Joined: 11-March 06 From: Northeastern Wyoming Member No.: 8,361 |
Sure, but I personally don't consider it any more unlikely then Daniel Howling Coyote being able to carve up North America, even with the help of a half-Horror.
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Jun 24 2007, 07:33 AM
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#5
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
Personally, I have always favored and still do favor the "play nice or we'll drop a nuclear bomb on the damned city; no we're not bluffing" approach to the dispensation of the holyland. Wisdom of Solomon and everything, those who truly care about Jerusalem will compromise to avoid its destruction. And if no one compromises, then they won't have a holyland to fight over at all. Its win-win either way for those of us who favor peace.
If the UN took this stance, then I can certainly understand a joint Ecumenical Council that is actually able to function. The moderates who don't want Jerusalem to be nuked would just beat the hardliners to death with large dradels . |
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Jun 24 2007, 09:16 AM
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#6
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234 |
The is a long history of UN peacekeeping in Jerusalem. The 1967 attack by the Jordanians that went right through the UN peacekeepers compound is an example of how effective it has been. . . . And one kind of wonders how eager the people supplying the firepower are to get into the city trading business. Nuking the 3rd holiest place in Islam and getting London, Paris, Frankfurt, DC, Tokyo, NYC, Zürich, and New Delhi obliterated in return, before the billion enraged jihad's show up, seems a bit costly. |
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Jun 24 2007, 09:34 AM
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#7
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
UN peacekeeping failed in the past because the UN is far too squeamish about things like unilateral nuclear strikes, systematic genocide, and extrajudical punishment for political dissenters. The UN of the Sixth World would have no problem with building Concentration Camps for hardliner Jews on Israeli soil.
And the billion Jihadists remark is kind of culturally insensitive. All true Muslims understand that Jihad is an internal struggle to overcome one's own evil impulses, including the desire for vengeance. |
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Jun 24 2007, 11:36 AM
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#8
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234 |
:rotfl: Very funny. That's the Koran and the hadiths according to George Bush and CAIR, right? |
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Jun 24 2007, 11:54 AM
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#9
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
So he actually started to read books himself?
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Jun 24 2007, 04:39 PM
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#10
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Cybernetic Blood Mage Group: Members Posts: 3,472 Joined: 11-March 06 From: Northeastern Wyoming Member No.: 8,361 |
Only if you count the "See Spot Run" series.
Still it is an improvement of sorts... :cyber: |
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Jun 24 2007, 05:47 PM
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#11
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Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
Jihad can be used and is used to mean an armed struggle, but it doesn't only mean that. It also means other types of struggle, such as trying to do good by putting your wealth to good purpose, speaking or writing good things and most importantly, the struggle within oneself to be a good person. Maybe consider the term to mean "dedication to good" in various ways. Also, you might get different answers if you ask a Sunni or a Shia. It is a little culturally insensitive to use the term in the way that you did because you're distorting the meaning of an important religious term. It's not necessarily insulting to have done so, but when provided with the correct meaning of the term, you should understand how to use it (or not use it) in future. -K. |
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Jun 24 2007, 06:37 PM
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#12
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Don't mind those Christians confusing 'Jihad' for 'Crusade' - they just want some Muslims to conquer Jerusalem again, so they can take it back... it's so politicaly incorrect to do so as long as the Jews have it. :P
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Jun 24 2007, 06:55 PM
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#13
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 355 Joined: 3-October 05 From: Ann Arbor, MI Member No.: 7,803 |
Cool, thanks. I'll have to try to pick up Shadows of Asia then. |
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Jun 24 2007, 07:40 PM
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#14
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Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: Funniest thing I've heard all week! Karma point to you, my friend! Thank you so much! :grinbig: :rotfl: :rotfl: |
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Jun 24 2007, 07:41 PM
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#15
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
hahaha, man. why is the truth always very funny or very scary?
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Jun 24 2007, 08:08 PM
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#16
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Because otherwise, it would be unable to drive you insane, wouldn't it? :wobble:
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Jun 24 2007, 09:06 PM
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#17
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234 |
Which is why that famed collection of Islamic charity groups calls themselves Islamic Jihad, right? Lets look them up and see what they are famous for. Palestinian Islamic Jihad, Harakat al-Jihad al-Islami, curretly based in Damascus. A terrorists organization. Egyptian Islamic Jihad, typically [I]al-Jihad[/], currently part of Al-Qaeda, a terrorists organization. Islamic Jihad Organization is a front for the Iranian Revolutionary Guards terror operations. How could that be? Islamic groups, based widely across the Arab world, who use the word Jihad as part of the name of their terrorist organization? And don't seem to be persecuted for this usage. Hmm, maybe there are not as many "true Moslem's" as you think? Or perhaps Arabic speaking Moslem's consider Jihad to be be primarily about killing infidels? |
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Jun 24 2007, 09:15 PM
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#18
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
..you mean like the secular Muslims should declare Jihad on the fanatic ones for reasons of faith and stone them to death? Now let's talk about becoming what you oppose... :grinbig: |
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Jun 24 2007, 10:07 PM
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#19
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,159 Joined: 12-April 07 From: Ork Underground Member No.: 11,440 |
@KZT if with all your "cherry picking" you could only find 3 examples..... It is word, that many meanings to many beliefs/ideologies. It does not mean that every time it is used, that user/organization is a "terrorist" person/organization. It is kind of like the word Christian, it has many meanings/definitions to those that use it, like if the White Supremest say they are Christians, their point of view of Christianity is not the Total point of view of the rest of Christianity. The Muslin Extremists like the Christian Extremists are a very small fraction of the World's Muslim/Christian believer population. WMS |
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Jun 24 2007, 11:10 PM
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#20
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Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
Okay. You want to tell me what 'Jihad' means, do you? If you don't believe me then buy an Arabic-English dictionary and look it up. Better, try reading a little more widely. It means a utmost struggle. In fact, "to strive" would probably be a better translation. It's not an uncommon word and it has religious meaning so it's not surprising that you find it in the names of those three organisations. Do you want to know how silly you sound? Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam (Tamil Tigers) Revolutionary People's Liberation Party Kamtapur Liberation Organisation (KLO) Oh no! "Liberation" means terrorist. Not to mention the US "liberation" of Iraq. Yep - that's definitely what the word means. I'm being silly, you think? Actually, no - what you just did is pretty much the exact equivalent of this. Jihad is widely used in the muslim world to mean other than a holy war. You will find it everywhere in religious discussion. In fact, the way you mean it as "holy war" isn't really accurate anyway. It just means armed struggle, defending your community against persecution. Or at least normally. Some people interpret it as more aggressive. Shia (which I am not) call this a lesser Jihad. The greater jihad is the struggle with the self. Please, check your facts before you spread this sort of misunderstanding to others. The last thing this world needs is more miscommunication. I'm sorry if I've come across as a little harsh here, but these things matter and you could cause some people a fair bit of offence if you use someone else's language without understanding what you're saying. |
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Jun 24 2007, 11:24 PM
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#21
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Street Doc Group: Admin Posts: 3,508 Joined: 2-March 04 From: Neverwhere Member No.: 6,114 |
I guess in the dytopian world of SR it doesn't make sense to me that two cultures that have been at each other's throats for most of recorded history will suddenly decide to abandon extremism and play nice together. It doesn't make sense to me that while the rest of the planet is going to hell in a hand basket the Jews and the Muslims will suddenly decide to get along. I think hyzmarca's take is much more plausible. Any other intervention by the UN would probably be considered western imperialism (a new Crusade) by most arabs, who already distrust the UN (who created Israel) and are already upset with western influence in the Middle East as it is (but lets not get into current politics...please :please:). |
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Jun 24 2007, 11:29 PM
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#22
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Uncle Fisty Group: Admin Posts: 13,891 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928 |
ON Ds we're usually wary of discussion of religions or races simply because generalizations often crop up and can make things turn nasty. I for one usually enjoy discussions about politics, religion, etc, but this is the sort of thing we usually try to be mindful of avoiding. This is a rather long winded way of saying please avoid insulting someone else's beliefs through generalizations. |
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Jun 24 2007, 11:29 PM
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#23
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Cybernetic Blood Mage Group: Members Posts: 3,472 Joined: 11-March 06 From: Northeastern Wyoming Member No.: 8,361 |
Sure, and I also agree with hyzmarca that making everyone get along at gunpoint is more plausable, my point was more along the lines that to me at least the Jews and Muslims gathering together to sing around a campfire is just as likely as what happened in North America or from what I've heard they done to Europe.
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Jun 24 2007, 11:35 PM
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#24
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
..wait a second. Half-Horror? |
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Jun 24 2007, 11:36 PM
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#25
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Street Doc Group: Admin Posts: 3,508 Joined: 2-March 04 From: Neverwhere Member No.: 6,114 |
Thanks, fistandantilus3.0
I think its going to be difficult to discuss Jerusalem 2070 without treading on shaky ground... :( |
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