Hacking Defaults, Why buy Hacking? Options

[Cooper]

I'm new to Shadowrun so I think I might be misunderstanding a bit.

If Hacking defaults to logic-1 and your logic is 8, wouldn't that mean you'd have hacking at 7? If you bought the hacking skill at 4 wouldn't you end up just lowering your chance of success on your Hacking+Exploit rolls? Heck, get a +3 bioware and Exceptional Attribute (Logic) and you can hit 10 Logic as most races. Why bother with the hacking skill at all?

If anyone could shed some light on this I'd appreciate it. I can't imagine that not buying a skill would make you better at it, but that's what I'm reading so far.

[Eryk the Red]

It doesn't actually work that way. You don't replace the skill with the attribute -1. If that was so, defaulting on Pistols skill would have you roll Agility + Agility -1. Instead, when defaulting hacking rolls, you default to the other rating used in the roll (the program rating). It's not explicit in the rules, and it's not exactly universally agreed upon, but that seems to be the most logical way to do it, and, I think, the way the rules intended.

Edit: Just a nitpick: Can't get Logic 10. That'd exceed the augmented attribute cap of 9.

[Moon-Hawk]

But Cooper still has a valid point. Someone with the Hacking group at 4 and programs at rating 4 rolls 8 dice, but if they default to their Logic of 10 they get 9 dice, so why bother?
It seems to me that most people use a house-rule or two for hacking. Some people use Logic+Skill+Program for all tests, some people keep Skill+Program and allow defaulting to Logic but enforce max hits based on skill or program, etc.
This issue has come up several times. Have you tried searching the forum and been unsuccessful?

edit: nitpick nitpick, Cooper did specify exceptional attribute. Yes, you can get 10.

[Eryk the Red]

I guess the question we raise is, when defaulting on a skill, any skill, do you always use the linked attribute listed for the skill, or do you use the attribute that actually contributes to the dice pool. I argue the latter. If a character wants to block a melee attack unarmed, but don't have Unarmed Combat, they don't get to default to Agility -1 instead of Reaction. Holding your breath is Willpower + Swimming. If you don't have Swimming, I won't let you default to Strength -1, instead of Willpower -1.

[deek]

From a realism standpoint, I think we have to take a look at what a rating 9 in an attribute means...its insanely powerful...so, yeah, I can believe a defaulting hacker with logic 9 (8 dice for a test) is just as good as a 4 skill, 4 attribute...that is comparing someone that is above average in something, using average equipment, to someone that is insanely, crazy intelligent...

[sunnyside]

I think the rule is that rolls start at base

thing1 + thing2 for dice pools.

but

If (thing1 OR thing2 == 0) then
base dice pool = (whichever isn't 0)-1

So if you don't have hacking, assuming it's usable untrained, you'd roll program-1

[Abbandon]

Well according to the book you CAN default on not having a hacking skill. Some things are just to difficult to default on though as is the case for several other skills in the book. And in this case dont even make a hell of a lot of sense since you would actually be better.

I'd say any time you have a skill+device/program you cant default to an attribute.

[sunnyside]

Really I'd advise against saying "default to an attribute" it leads to confusion with the old skill web stuff where you actually did default to an attribute. That just isn't around anymore.

All that's happening in a default in SR4 is that sometimes you take an extra -1 penalty if you have a 0 in something where your base dice pool is the sum of two things.

It occured to me that my last post isn't quite right. As I don't think you take the default penalty on resistance tests (like if you don't have counterspelling, or armor).

I think it's if you're activly trying to do something and the skill is 0 you take the default penalty.

Regardless you never to substitute a stat in for a skill. i.e. if you want to declare a full dodge you don't get to roll reactionx2-1 and so on.

Basically what Eryk said.

[Unarmed]

So the implication is that if you were attempting to hack a system where you would normally roll hacking + exploit, but you don't have hacking, then you would roll logic - 1 + exploit? Or are we saying you'd just roll logic-1?

Neither of those options make much sense, when you're not even rolling the attribute normally, but apperently hacking is defaultable.

I'd rule that you can't default on hacking in this case, or that you just roll program -1, in which case you're not doing so hot.

[deek]

[Cooper]

[sunnyside]

Where do you people even get the idea that you can substitute a stat in for a skill in SR4? That mechanic exists nowhere in the system.

In SR4 logic is completly decoupled from hacking when a program is involved.

By the way there is talk that logic may become important with changes in unwired, but that's just chatter from the freelancers.

[Unarmed]

[deek]

[Unarmed]

[deek]

[Moon-Hawk]

[Aaron]

If I'm reading page 54 of the hymnal correctly, a skill roll is Skill + Attribute. If one has no skill, one may still roll the Attribute, but at -1.

The way I explain it to confused new players is that a character that lacks a Skill has a "Rating" of -1.

Evidently, program Ratings replace Attribute Ratings in the Matrix. If this is the case, when the Bounty Hunter picks up the Hacker's commlink and tries to run Zurich Orbital, he'll be rolling four dice. The same would go for Egghead the Logic 10 Hacker Wannabe.

[sunnyside]

The trick with doing it that way is that it's a metaphorical boot the the crotch of technomancers. One that will LIFT THEM CLEAN OFF THE GROUND.

Though you could houserule TMs too to fit them into that I suppose. Such as having threading and spirit assist simply add die to tests. Beyond that though they still can't really use cyber to jack their logic and stealth 12 is not remotly the same as stealth 6 with +6 die pool when the system is rolling against it as a threshold. Ditto with attack 12 vs attack 6 with +6 die pool. So you should probably throw some other very nice houserules the TMs way.

Course if you only run hackers it works just fine.

EDIT: @Aaron that's right. Since it isn't clear which is replacing the attribute somepeople will also let you roll hacking -1 if you don't have the right program. Either way that wouldn't go well and I've never had it come up.

[deek]

[deek]

[Unarmed]

[Moon-Hawk]

[Abbandon]

@Deek You roll logic + hacking and the number of success's are capped by the program rating?? Thats insane. Thats how you modify the guts of something or the program of something. Like you want to turn your attack 4 program into a browse 4 program. Or you want to add a self destruct line of code to a commlink.

What difference does it make how smart or stupid a character is. Thats like saying some nerd who knows how to make the chemical propulsion for a rocket can go run outside and expertly shoot down fighter jets and tanks with a rocket launcher.

Most things are based of what your body is capable of and your experience at doing something. Your litle icon flying through the matrix doesnt give two craps how smart you are because your body attribute = the program rating in this case. Programs determine what you are capable of and your hacking/computer skill experience. You may know how to write a killer program but what good does that do you when you actually need one.

Thats like saying your body attribute determines how much damage your persona can take or your agility determines how fast you can move from node to node.

[Moon-Hawk]

Huh, you know, I think I object to every single one of your analogies.

edit: Skip to my next post, it's much more constructive than this. I did a whole new post rather than editing this one 'cause I never dreamed I'd get it in before 5 other people had posted. ;)