I'm new to Shadowrun so I think I might be misunderstanding a bit.
If Hacking defaults to logic-1 and your logic is 8, wouldn't that mean you'd have hacking at 7? If you bought the hacking skill at 4 wouldn't you end up just lowering your chance of success on your Hacking+Exploit rolls? Heck, get a +3 bioware and Exceptional Attribute (Logic) and you can hit 10 Logic as most races. Why bother with the hacking skill at all?
If anyone could shed some light on this I'd appreciate it. I can't imagine that not buying a skill would make you better at it, but that's what I'm reading so far.
Full Version: Hacking Defaults
It doesn't actually work that way. You don't replace the skill with the attribute -1. If that was so, defaulting on Pistols skill would have you roll Agility + Agility -1. Instead, when defaulting hacking rolls, you default to the other rating used in the roll (the program rating). It's not explicit in the rules, and it's not exactly universally agreed upon, but that seems to be the most logical way to do it, and, I think, the way the rules intended.
Edit: Just a nitpick: Can't get Logic 10. That'd exceed the augmented attribute cap of 9.
Edit: Just a nitpick: Can't get Logic 10. That'd exceed the augmented attribute cap of 9.
But Cooper still has a valid point. Someone with the Hacking group at 4 and programs at rating 4 rolls 8 dice, but if they default to their Logic of 10 they get 9 dice, so why bother?
It seems to me that most people use a house-rule or two for hacking. Some people use Logic+Skill+Program for all tests, some people keep Skill+Program and allow defaulting to Logic but enforce max hits based on skill or program, etc.
This issue has come up several times. Have you tried searching the forum and been unsuccessful?
edit: nitpick nitpick, Cooper did specify exceptional attribute. Yes, you can get 10.
It seems to me that most people use a house-rule or two for hacking. Some people use Logic+Skill+Program for all tests, some people keep Skill+Program and allow defaulting to Logic but enforce max hits based on skill or program, etc.
This issue has come up several times. Have you tried searching the forum and been unsuccessful?
edit: nitpick nitpick, Cooper did specify exceptional attribute. Yes, you can get 10.
I guess the question we raise is, when defaulting on a skill, any skill, do you always use the linked attribute listed for the skill, or do you use the attribute that actually contributes to the dice pool. I argue the latter. If a character wants to block a melee attack unarmed, but don't have Unarmed Combat, they don't get to default to Agility -1 instead of Reaction. Holding your breath is Willpower + Swimming. If you don't have Swimming, I won't let you default to Strength -1, instead of Willpower -1.
From a realism standpoint, I think we have to take a look at what a rating 9 in an attribute means...its insanely powerful...so, yeah, I can believe a defaulting hacker with logic 9 (8 dice for a test) is just as good as a 4 skill, 4 attribute...that is comparing someone that is above average in something, using average equipment, to someone that is insanely, crazy intelligent...
I think the rule is that rolls start at base
thing1 + thing2 for dice pools.
but
If (thing1 OR thing2 == 0) then
base dice pool = (whichever isn't 0)-1
So if you don't have hacking, assuming it's usable untrained, you'd roll program-1
thing1 + thing2 for dice pools.
but
If (thing1 OR thing2 == 0) then
base dice pool = (whichever isn't 0)-1
So if you don't have hacking, assuming it's usable untrained, you'd roll program-1
Well according to the book you CAN default on not having a hacking skill. Some things are just to difficult to default on though as is the case for several other skills in the book. And in this case dont even make a hell of a lot of sense since you would actually be better.
I'd say any time you have a skill+device/program you cant default to an attribute.
I'd say any time you have a skill+device/program you cant default to an attribute.
Really I'd advise against saying "default to an attribute" it leads to confusion with the old skill web stuff where you actually did default to an attribute. That just isn't around anymore.
All that's happening in a default in SR4 is that sometimes you take an extra -1 penalty if you have a 0 in something where your base dice pool is the sum of two things.
It occured to me that my last post isn't quite right. As I don't think you take the default penalty on resistance tests (like if you don't have counterspelling, or armor).
I think it's if you're activly trying to do something and the skill is 0 you take the default penalty.
Regardless you never to substitute a stat in for a skill. i.e. if you want to declare a full dodge you don't get to roll reactionx2-1 and so on.
Basically what Eryk said.
All that's happening in a default in SR4 is that sometimes you take an extra -1 penalty if you have a 0 in something where your base dice pool is the sum of two things.
It occured to me that my last post isn't quite right. As I don't think you take the default penalty on resistance tests (like if you don't have counterspelling, or armor).
I think it's if you're activly trying to do something and the skill is 0 you take the default penalty.
Regardless you never to substitute a stat in for a skill. i.e. if you want to declare a full dodge you don't get to roll reactionx2-1 and so on.
Basically what Eryk said.
So the implication is that if you were attempting to hack a system where you would normally roll hacking + exploit, but you don't have hacking, then you would roll logic - 1 + exploit? Or are we saying you'd just roll logic-1?
Neither of those options make much sense, when you're not even rolling the attribute normally, but apperently hacking is defaultable.
I'd rule that you can't default on hacking in this case, or that you just roll program -1, in which case you're not doing so hot.
Neither of those options make much sense, when you're not even rolling the attribute normally, but apperently hacking is defaultable.
I'd rule that you can't default on hacking in this case, or that you just roll program -1, in which case you're not doing so hot.
| QUOTE (Unarmed) |
| So the implication is that if you were attempting to hack a system where you would normally roll hacking + exploit, but you don't have hacking, then you would roll logic - 1 + exploit? Or are we saying you'd just roll logic-1? Neither of those options make much sense, when you're not even rolling the attribute normally, but apperently hacking is defaultable. I'd rule that you can't default on hacking in this case, or that you just roll program -1, in which case you're not doing so hot. |
Hacking is a little different because its not Attribute + Skill. Its Skill + Program. I'd rule that defaulting on hacking is allowed if you are rolling something that is Hacking + Attribute, but if the actual test has no attribute in it, then you can't default on it.
But, that is just my take. And for the record, I use Logic + Skill, with Program capping hits, as a houserule, so I bypass this issue altogether.
| QUOTE |
| And for the record, I use Logic + Skill, with Program capping hits, as a houserule, so I bypass this issue altogether. |
I like this one. I'll have to see if my GM goes for it. I don't like that a Logic 1 person can be an equally good hacker as a Logic 10 person.
Where do you people even get the idea that you can substitute a stat in for a skill in SR4? That mechanic exists nowhere in the system.
In SR4 logic is completly decoupled from hacking when a program is involved.
By the way there is talk that logic may become important with changes in unwired, but that's just chatter from the freelancers.
In SR4 logic is completly decoupled from hacking when a program is involved.
By the way there is talk that logic may become important with changes in unwired, but that's just chatter from the freelancers.
| QUOTE (deek) | ||
Hacking is a little different because its not Attribute + Skill. Its Skill + Program. I'd rule that defaulting on hacking is allowed if you are rolling something that is Hacking + Attribute, but if the actual test has no attribute in it, then you can't default on it. But, that is just my take. And for the record, I use Logic + Skill, with Program capping hits, as a houserule, so I bypass this issue altogether. |
To be honest, most of the time I don't mind the fact that logic doesn't really affect hacking all that much. It's a bit incongruous with the rest of the SR4 system, though.
Doing it your way would solve this particular problem quite nicely, and streamline It does take a lot of the focus off of the gear, though, which actually makes a bit more sense as well. I may have to suggest this to my group.
| QUOTE (sunnyside) |
| In SR4 logic is completly decoupled from hacking when a program is involved. By the way there is talk that logic may become important with changes in unwired, but that's just chatter from the freelancers. |
Heh...well, its already important in houseruled games:) And we don't have to wait for that!
| QUOTE (sunnyside) |
| Where do you people even get the idea that you can substitute a stat in for a skill in SR4? That mechanic exists nowhere in the system. In SR4 logic is completly decoupled from hacking when a program is involved. By the way there is talk that logic may become important with changes in unwired, but that's just chatter from the freelancers. |
Well, I wasn't saying that that should happen. I was basically just restating what other people have been saying for my own edification. I don't think you should be able to substitute and attribute for a skill, if you have to default on a test that was originally hacking + program, then you should either just roll program -1 or not be allowed to do it at all.
| QUOTE (Unarmed) |
| To be honest, most of the time I don't mind the fact that logic doesn't really affect hacking all that much. It's a bit incongruous with the rest of the SR4 system, though. Doing it your way would solve this particular problem quite nicely, and streamline It does take a lot of the focus off of the gear, though, which actually makes a bit more sense as well. I may have to suggest this to my group. |
Its a pretty common matrix houserule, AFAIK. The only reason I started using it was because everyone in my group thought it was inconsistent with the core rules as well as simply didn't make sense. We didn't enjoy the fact that a Logic 1 hacker had the same dice pools as a Logic 10...we didn't like it, so we changed it and having done so, have never regretted it...
From a mechanic standpoint to your GM, it really doesn't change the feel of the game at all. He should already be used to Force capping successes on Spellcasting tests, so having a Program Rating cap successes on Hacking/Computer tests...
| QUOTE (Unarmed) |
| Doing it your way would solve this particular problem quite nicely, and streamline It does take a lot of the focus off of the gear, though, which actually makes a bit more sense as well. I may have to suggest this to my group. |
I go even farther in this direction. IMG I've eliminated program ratings (but not programs) and just roll Logic+Skill, and if they don't have the right program loaded in memory they take the standard -4 for not having the right tools. Anytime I need a program rating for a threshold or something I just use System rating.
Basically, it seemed that everyone had all their programs at the max rating they could (System), and System was at the max rating (Response). The end result being that they wrote the same damn number on their sheet 30 times.
But my way is a bit extreme and goes along with a couple other minor changes I've made; Deek's way seems pretty popular, though.
If I'm reading page 54 of the hymnal correctly, a skill roll is Skill + Attribute. If one has no skill, one may still roll the Attribute, but at -1.
The way I explain it to confused new players is that a character that lacks a Skill has a "Rating" of -1.
Evidently, program Ratings replace Attribute Ratings in the Matrix. If this is the case, when the Bounty Hunter picks up the Hacker's commlink and tries to run Zurich Orbital, he'll be rolling four dice. The same would go for Egghead the Logic 10 Hacker Wannabe.
The way I explain it to confused new players is that a character that lacks a Skill has a "Rating" of -1.
Evidently, program Ratings replace Attribute Ratings in the Matrix. If this is the case, when the Bounty Hunter picks up the Hacker's commlink and tries to run Zurich Orbital, he'll be rolling four dice. The same would go for Egghead the Logic 10 Hacker Wannabe.
The trick with doing it that way is that it's a metaphorical boot the the crotch of technomancers. One that will LIFT THEM CLEAN OFF THE GROUND.
Though you could houserule TMs too to fit them into that I suppose. Such as having threading and spirit assist simply add die to tests. Beyond that though they still can't really use cyber to jack their logic and stealth 12 is not remotly the same as stealth 6 with +6 die pool when the system is rolling against it as a threshold. Ditto with attack 12 vs attack 6 with +6 die pool. So you should probably throw some other very nice houserules the TMs way.
Course if you only run hackers it works just fine.
EDIT: @Aaron that's right. Since it isn't clear which is replacing the attribute somepeople will also let you roll hacking -1 if you don't have the right program. Either way that wouldn't go well and I've never had it come up.
Though you could houserule TMs too to fit them into that I suppose. Such as having threading and spirit assist simply add die to tests. Beyond that though they still can't really use cyber to jack their logic and stealth 12 is not remotly the same as stealth 6 with +6 die pool when the system is rolling against it as a threshold. Ditto with attack 12 vs attack 6 with +6 die pool. So you should probably throw some other very nice houserules the TMs way.
Course if you only run hackers it works just fine.
EDIT: @Aaron that's right. Since it isn't clear which is replacing the attribute somepeople will also let you roll hacking -1 if you don't have the right program. Either way that wouldn't go well and I've never had it come up.
| QUOTE (Moon-Hawk) |
| I go even farther in this direction. IMG I've eliminated program ratings (but not programs) and just roll Logic+Skill, and if they don't have the right program loaded in memory they take the standard -4 for not having the right tools. Anytime I need a program rating for a threshold or something I just use System rating. Basically, it seemed that everyone had all their programs at the max rating they could (System), and System was at the max rating (Response). The end result being that they wrote the same damn number on their sheet 30 times. But my way is a bit extreme and goes along with a couple other minor changes I've made; Deek's way seems pretty popular, though. |
Moon-Hawk...even though a bit off topic, I do want to say that I like the way you do this with a -4 penalty if they don't have the right program loaded.
The only question I have is what do you charge for programs, do you use rating 6 to figure out the cost or what?
I agree, from practice, everyone on my players have bought programs at max...anymore, I just have them write down "all common use programs" and hacking ones individually, unless of course they have them all, and then I just tell them to write it all on one line and tell me the rating they bought them at...it gets pretty redundent...
| QUOTE (sunnyside) |
| The trick with doing it that way is that it's a metaphorical boot the the crotch of technomancers. One that will LIFT THEM CLEAN OFF THE GROUND. Though you could houserule TMs too to fit them into that I suppose. Such as having threading and spirit assist simply add die to tests. Beyond that though they still can't really use cyber to jack their logic and stealth 12 is not remotly the same as stealth 6 with +6 die pool when the system is rolling against it as a threshold. Ditto with attack 12 vs attack 6 with +6 die pool. So you should probably throw some other very nice houserules the TMs way. Course if you only run hackers it works just fine. EDIT: @Aaron that's right. Since it isn't clear which is replacing the attribute somepeople will also let you roll hacking -1 if you don't have the right program. Either way that wouldn't go well and I've never had it come up. |
Heh...well, my metaphorical boot started at our group's chargen, when I told them I wouldn't allow TMs in the game...no one cared, so we haven't had any issues with them:)
| QUOTE (sunnyside @ Jun 28 2007, 01:12 PM) |
| The trick with doing it that way is that it's a metaphorical boot the the crotch of technomancers. One that will LIFT THEM CLEAN OFF THE GROUND. Though you could houserule TMs too to fit them into that I suppose. Such as having threading and spirit assist simply add die to tests. Beyond that though they still can't really use cyber to jack their logic and stealth 12 is not remotly the same as stealth 6 with +6 die pool when the system is rolling against it as a threshold. Ditto with attack 12 vs attack 6 with +6 die pool. So you should probably throw some other very nice houserules the TMs way. Course if you only run hackers it works just fine. EDIT: @Aaron that's right. Since it isn't clear which is replacing the attribute somepeople will also let you roll hacking -1 if you don't have the right program. Either way that wouldn't go well and I've never had it come up. |
Yeah, I hadn't actually considered that since we don't currently have a technomancer in the group since nobody wants to play one. 7 People, no technos. Sad.
At any rate, threading stealth up to 12 (the most commonly threaded CF, in my experience) still has a tremendously good affect, as does threading attack. I think I'd allow threading to either add a die pool modifier or increase the CF as it currently does. That way they get the best of both worlds. Perhaps I'd even allow it to do both, if you thread up a rating 6 CF you could have the CF at 9 and then get a +3 modifier. That would allow a little more versatility and prevent the already one-trick-pony technomancers to still remain kings of their domain.
| QUOTE (deek) | ||
Moon-Hawk...even though a bit off topic, I do want to say that I like the way you do this with a -4 penalty if they don't have the right program loaded. The only question I have is what do you charge for programs, do you use rating 6 to figure out the cost or what? I agree, from practice, everyone on my players have bought programs at max...anymore, I just have them write down "all common use programs" and hacking ones individually, unless of course they have them all, and then I just tell them to write it all on one line and tell me the rating they bought them at...it gets pretty redundent... |
<I'll post my house rules at the end of this post>
I don't actually charge anything for programs. I have a few reasons for this. Basically, the situation I had was: The hacker bought all the programs at the maximum rating he could run. He then broke the copy protection on them and gave them all to everyone. Everyone had top of the line commlinks, 'cause they're cheap as dirt, loaded with all the programs at max rating. And absolutely everyone except the hacker was afraid to touch the damn things. "I don't want to hack, I don't know what the test is, I don't know what program to use, do I have that program, what's the rating?" Whine whine bitch complain.
What I wanted was for absolutely anyone on the team to be unafraid to spoof a command to a simple low-rating device, or to perform their own data search. So I came up with a set of house rules to simplify things a bit to make hacking more accessible to people who don't really want to spend a lot of time with it. At the same time, I tried not to take away from the strategy for someone who really wanted to play a hacker. (Such as managing program loads) I also tried to make them so that they'd be relatively compatible with any rules that came out later.
So the results that I'm getting with my new rules are that if someone needs to do a quick easy command, outside of combat, we assume they have the program, we don't really have to care which one they need, we assume they take the time to load it into memory, we don't really care whether it takes 3 seconds or 6, and they roll Logic + Hacking and we get on with our game. Increased fun is had by all. If it is an intense situation where program loads and seconds matter, then it's the Hacker doing it anyway because the Sam isn't spoofing a command to a lock, he's shooting people.
I have been totally thrilled with the effect my house-rules have on my game. It gets everyone involved in hacking at a basic level and doesn't really detract from any of the strategy of a hacker.
Now the caveats. Although I have included rules for technomancers, they have had very little playtesting. As FrankTrollman pointed out to me, the effect of my technomancer rules makes them somewhat less sucky at chargen, but after a few hundred karma or so (if your games run that long) they will be matrix monsters.
Okay, so here's my matrix rules:
1) All hacking tests are done using Attribute + Skill: This is consistent with the core mechanic. Ex: Logic + Hacking
2) All Common Use and Hacking programs are effectively free. Common Use programs probably come with most OS. For Hacking programs, in SR4 software piracy is the rule, not the exception. Legality is still a factor. Attempting a task without the correct program is a -4 penalty, as per the normal penalty for attempting a task without appropriate tools.
3) Program ratings for Common Use and Hacking programs are irrelevant and gone. In the event a rating is required, use Response or System as appropriate. Note that it is still important to track which programs are in active memory, since this can still cause Response degradation. Whenever a task calls for a program rating, use System instead.
4) Pirated OS are also available basically for free. These options are restricted to the options listed in the book, however. Non-standard OS must be obtained normally, i.e. through availability and at normal cost.
5) To compensate for lower costs, all commlinks have their cost multiplied by their Response rating. Cheap commlinks are still cheap, but a deluxe model still costs a significant number of BP, although still not as much as before.
6) Technomancers – Use Resonance + Skill.
7) Technomancers – CF cost the same as spells. 3BP or 5 karma.
Technomancers – Threading still adds dice to the use of any CF. If the Technomancer has that CF, it adds dice to the test. If the Technomancer does not have the CF, extra dice will help to offset/overcome the standard -4 penalty. (see rule 2)9) Technomancers – Threading drain is physical if the number of dice added exceeds Resonance / 2 (rounded down). The technomancer can forego rolled successes when threading for lesser effect but lesser drain, if desired.
Anyway, sorry for the long post, let me know if you have any questions.
@Deek You roll logic + hacking and the number of success's are capped by the program rating?? Thats insane. Thats how you modify the guts of something or the program of something. Like you want to turn your attack 4 program into a browse 4 program. Or you want to add a self destruct line of code to a commlink.
What difference does it make how smart or stupid a character is. Thats like saying some nerd who knows how to make the chemical propulsion for a rocket can go run outside and expertly shoot down fighter jets and tanks with a rocket launcher.
Most things are based of what your body is capable of and your experience at doing something. Your litle icon flying through the matrix doesnt give two craps how smart you are because your body attribute = the program rating in this case. Programs determine what you are capable of and your hacking/computer skill experience. You may know how to write a killer program but what good does that do you when you actually need one.
Thats like saying your body attribute determines how much damage your persona can take or your agility determines how fast you can move from node to node.
What difference does it make how smart or stupid a character is. Thats like saying some nerd who knows how to make the chemical propulsion for a rocket can go run outside and expertly shoot down fighter jets and tanks with a rocket launcher.
Most things are based of what your body is capable of and your experience at doing something. Your litle icon flying through the matrix doesnt give two craps how smart you are because your body attribute = the program rating in this case. Programs determine what you are capable of and your hacking/computer skill experience. You may know how to write a killer program but what good does that do you when you actually need one.
Thats like saying your body attribute determines how much damage your persona can take or your agility determines how fast you can move from node to node.
Huh, you know, I think I object to every single one of your analogies.
edit: Skip to my next post, it's much more constructive than this. I did a whole new post rather than editing this one 'cause I never dreamed I'd get it in before 5 other people had posted.
edit: Skip to my next post, it's much more constructive than this. I did a whole new post rather than editing this one 'cause I never dreamed I'd get it in before 5 other people had posted.
| QUOTE (Abbandon @ Jun 28 2007, 01:58 PM) |
| @Deek You roll logic + hacking and the number of success's are capped by the program rating?? Thats insane. Thats how you modify the guts of something or the program of something. Like you want to turn your attack 4 program into a browse 4 program. Or you want to add a self destruct line of code to a commlink. What difference does it make how smart or stupid a character is. Thats like saying some nerd who knows how to make the chemical propulsion for a rocket can go run outside and expertly shoot down fighter jets and tanks with a rocket launcher. Most things are based of what your body is capable of and your experience at doing something. Your litle icon flying through the matrix doesnt give two craps how smart you are because your body attribute = the program rating in this case. Programs determine what you are capable of and your hacking/computer skill experience. You may know how to write a killer program but what good does that do you when you actually need one. Thats like saying your body attribute determines how much damage your persona can take or your agility determines how fast you can move from node to node. |
Okay, okay, I should make a more constructive post about this.
| QUOTE (Abbandon) |
| Like you want to turn your attack 4 program into a browse 4 program. |
This is just a really weird example. (I edited this part 'cause my first response was less constructive)
| QUOTE |
| What difference does it make how smart or stupid a character is. |
Actually, a lot of people feel like a super genius should be a marginally better hacker than a complete idiot. If you feel that that is silly, we're just going to have to agree to disagree.
| QUOTE |
| Thats like saying some nerd who knows how to make the chemical propulsion for a rocket can go run outside and expertly shoot down fighter jets and tanks with a rocket launcher. |
No it's not. It's not remotely like saying that. It's more like saying that a genius who takes a computer programming course will be a better programmer than an idiot who takes the class with him.
| QUOTE |
| Most things are based of what your body is capable of and your experience at doing something. Your litle icon flying through the matrix doesnt give two craps how smart you are because your body attribute = the program rating in this case. |
This is where the analogy really breaks down. You're bringing physical attributes and physical tasks into a discussion about mental attributes. Your icon might be miles away, but you're still doing your thinking in your head.
| QUOTE |
| Programs determine what you are capable of and your hacking/computer skill experience. You may know how to write a killer program but what good does that do you when you actually need one. |
Okay, you're obviously in the pro-script-kiddie camp. And I'm not saying that there's anything wrong with that. It's supported by the rules, in fact. But some people would prefer a mechanic where the programs are simply a tool that a clever hacker uses to accomplish a task, rather than a complete do-it-yourself-automated-sweet-of-haxx0rness. To each his own.
| QUOTE |
| Thats like saying your body attribute determines how much damage your persona can take or your agility determines how fast you can move from node to node. |
Again, no it's not, and I think it's a silly analogy. It is simply saying that being an intelligent person is useful when doing a highly cerebral task, such as hacking. Some people feel that this is the way it should be.
There is nothing wrong with the rules as they are, but they create a certain feel and put more emphasis on programs and less emphasis on the person doing the hacking than some people like, so for those people, there exist house rules that put greater emphasis on the hacker and less emphasis on the programs.
And that's....okay.
There is nothing wrong with the rules as they are, but they create a certain feel and put more emphasis on programs and less emphasis on the person doing the hacking than some people like, so for those people, there exist house rules that put greater emphasis on the hacker and less emphasis on the programs.
And that's....okay.
Being a genius would only help in hacking as far as making programs, cracking them, rewriting them. Your brain isnt doing anything in the matrix except making decisions IE using your experience(skill) and your program(attribute).
You guys are saying I can take my crappy little Attack 1 program that could barely scramble the words in a text file and damage anything and everything with it because im "smart". I cant take a calculator and make it hack into a website because im smart and i know how those two things work. The calculator is only programmed to do so much. I cant make it write HTML or type out text..
I guess we can disagree but even in the faq they talk about the proper use of logic + hack/computer.
You guys are saying I can take my crappy little Attack 1 program that could barely scramble the words in a text file and damage anything and everything with it because im "smart". I cant take a calculator and make it hack into a website because im smart and i know how those two things work. The calculator is only programmed to do so much. I cant make it write HTML or type out text..
I guess we can disagree but even in the faq they talk about the proper use of logic + hack/computer.
Abbandon, that's exactly the problem people have with the system as is. That it models what you are describing.
They don't like that hacking is the process of running programs well. So, to represent hacking being more cerebral, more about problem-solving and quick-thinking, they want to bring mental attributes in.
Though I have not made these changes in my game, I can't fault them for wanting that.
They don't like that hacking is the process of running programs well. So, to represent hacking being more cerebral, more about problem-solving and quick-thinking, they want to bring mental attributes in.
Though I have not made these changes in my game, I can't fault them for wanting that.
| QUOTE (Abbandon) |
| Being a genius would only help in hacking as far as making programs, cracking them, rewriting them. Your brain isnt doing anything in the matrix except making decisions IE using your experience(skill) and your program(attribute). You guys are saying I can take my crappy little Attack 1 program that could barely scramble the words in a text file and damage anything and everything with it because im "smart". I cant take a calculator and make it hack into a website because im smart and i know how those two things work. The calculator is only programmed to do so much. I cant make it write HTML or type out text.. I guess we can disagree but even in the faq they talk about the proper use of logic + hack/computer. |
No one is disagree with you that that is exactly what the rules say. Okay? Everyone agrees that that is exactly how it works, according to the rules. We all agree about that. We're not talking about the way the rules work, we're talking about a different way the rules could work, for a particular group of people who would like a different emphasis/feel. A "house-rule", if you will.
But some people would prefer a rule set in which it did not work like that. You could see hacking as simply unleashing your programs on others, guided only by skill (supported by the rules), or you could see hacking as a process that actually involves understanding data in front of you, and making decisions and manipulating code and programs are merely tools to help you do that, but you could potentially do these things without programs, because you're an awesome hacker. It's a completely different way of looking at hacking, but it is consistent with many examples from classic cyberpunk sources (although the RAW was has many of it's own examples)
In a lot of ways it's much more consistent with "real-life hackers", although I hesitate to bring any discussion of "real-life hackers" into this. But in real-life (which I cannot stress enough is NOT Shadowrun, and is not obligated to function under the same rules, particularly for computers) a hacker is a hacker because they are smart and knowledgeable, and programs just help them do their things faster. There are also script-kiddies, who just take simple exploits that hackers write and use them without knowing what they're doing. My system makes hackers more like the former, the core system makes hackers more like the latter.
It's okay, man, we know that the book says. My house rules are 100% wrong, according to the rules. I'm aware of that. It's just a different way of doing things that provides different results. Results which are, at my gaming table, preferable in the minds of those people who are gaming at said table, although perhaps not to you.
I think the logic for hacking argument has three very strong points.
One: Hacking isn't about using computers properly it's about causing them to break in ways that are favorable to your ends. That means that a high logic allows you to better understand the ways a program or device will do under different circumstances, and allows a hacker to understand code more quickly. Also it allows a hacker to infer how a devices code works from the outputs it gives to different inputs. All of these things are essential to hacking.
Two: The best programs are never the easiest to use. You could have a super powerful hacking suite custom built but it's probably all in the matrix equivalent of a esoteric command line. Your skill with the program is what matters more than the program itself. You need experience (skill) and logic to use programs successfully. People can still suck at photoshop, programs rarely do everything for you.
Three: It's more consistant with the rest of the rules and just plain easier to keep track of.
I'd rather have people use their logic for hacking and then allow script kiddies to replace logic with program rating if they want to pay for ( or spend the time finding) their hacking programs.
One: Hacking isn't about using computers properly it's about causing them to break in ways that are favorable to your ends. That means that a high logic allows you to better understand the ways a program or device will do under different circumstances, and allows a hacker to understand code more quickly. Also it allows a hacker to infer how a devices code works from the outputs it gives to different inputs. All of these things are essential to hacking.
Two: The best programs are never the easiest to use. You could have a super powerful hacking suite custom built but it's probably all in the matrix equivalent of a esoteric command line. Your skill with the program is what matters more than the program itself. You need experience (skill) and logic to use programs successfully. People can still suck at photoshop, programs rarely do everything for you.
Three: It's more consistant with the rest of the rules and just plain easier to keep track of.
I'd rather have people use their logic for hacking and then allow script kiddies to replace logic with program rating if they want to pay for ( or spend the time finding) their hacking programs.
I'm just going to delete my DS account because Moon-Hawk basically replied to everything exactly as I would...and we don't need clones spending time on the same board:)
The only clarification I want to make is Abbandon's comment:
You guys are saying I can take my crappy little Attack 1 program that could barely scramble the words in a text file and damage anything and everything with it because im "smart". I cant take a calculator and make it hack into a website because im smart and i know how those two things work. The calculator is only programmed to do so much. I cant make it write HTML or type out text..
No, I am not saying that, because the Attack program 1 limits the amount of hits, just like the force of a spell. So your average hacker rolls 8 dice, gets 2 hits, but only one count because then have a crappy little Attack program. The "smart" hacker rolls 12 dice, gets 3 hits, but still only one count, because they are using a crappy little Attack program.
The difference is, when they start using better programs, the "smarter" hacker is going to be better able to utilize it...and for me (and some others around here) this is how we prefer it...not right, not wrong, just they way we like it!!!
The only clarification I want to make is Abbandon's comment:
You guys are saying I can take my crappy little Attack 1 program that could barely scramble the words in a text file and damage anything and everything with it because im "smart". I cant take a calculator and make it hack into a website because im smart and i know how those two things work. The calculator is only programmed to do so much. I cant make it write HTML or type out text..
No, I am not saying that, because the Attack program 1 limits the amount of hits, just like the force of a spell. So your average hacker rolls 8 dice, gets 2 hits, but only one count because then have a crappy little Attack program. The "smart" hacker rolls 12 dice, gets 3 hits, but still only one count, because they are using a crappy little Attack program.
The difference is, when they start using better programs, the "smarter" hacker is going to be better able to utilize it...and for me (and some others around here) this is how we prefer it...not right, not wrong, just they way we like it!!!
| QUOTE (deek) |
| I'm just going to delete my DS account because Moon-Hawk basically replied to everything exactly as I would...and we don't need clones spending time on the same board:) |
We don't need clones, but we definitely need more people who agree with me!
Hey everybody, look, a smiley! I'm only joking. Nobody light me on fire. Please?
I don't know, personally I'm leaning towards keeping the Dicepools Skill+Program Rating, but limiting hits based off the character's Logic.
| QUOTE (sunnyside) |
| n SR4 logic is completly decoupled from hacking when a program is involved. |
This is true. However, when a program is not involved, you are allowed to default (according to the FAQ). Defaulting is defined as using the Linked Attribute of your skill with a -1 dicepool rating (p. 110). The linked attribute of Hacking is Logic (p. 124).
As defined in the rules right now, if you don't have an appropriate program to add to your dice pool, you add your Logic or Logic -1 instead (depending upon what you think about the text on page 223 or the contradictory examples in the FAQ). And honestly, since programs only go up to 6 and Logic goes up to 10, even taking a -1 penalty still makes you incredibly not inclined to actually use programs (except for programs which provide threasholds like Stealth, damage values like Attack, or arbitrary additional dicepools like Armor).
It is a serious hole in the rules, and there is no reading of the RAW that makes it go away. Personally, I'm lobbying for a reformat of the program concept where programs are treated as equipment and are always an additional dicepool to be added to the base tests (which are normally Attribute + Skill). But hey, I don't have the last word on this.
-Frank
| QUOTE (Moon-Hawk) |
| I go even farther in this direction. IMG I've eliminated program ratings (but not programs) and just roll Logic+Skill, and if they don't have the right program loaded in memory they take the standard -4 for not having the right tools. Anytime I need a program rating for a threshold or something I just use System rating. Basically, it seemed that everyone had all their programs at the max rating they could (System), and System was at the max rating (Response). The end result being that they wrote the same damn number on their sheet 30 times. |
I definitely like this houserule the best. It makes the most sense, it's the easiest to keep track of, and is the most consistent with the rest of SR rules.
What is your price for programs and time/thresholds for programming?
(I'm going to add this to my houserules sheet)
My complete hacking house rules are posted earlier in this thread. This is #2 on my list. Anything not in that list is treated however the book says.
In my rules, Common Use and Hacking programs are effectively free. The problem was, the Hacker ended up paying for all these programs, and then cracking them and distributing them to the entire group. It just made sense. So why is the hacker bearing the full burden of something the whole group gets? (so goes my reasoning) Plus, "piracy is the rule rather than the exception." I learned that on page 228.
I assume that Common Use programs either come with the OS, or maybe they're add-ons, but whatever. Regular people probably pay prices for them, which comes out of their lifestyle costs, and corporations likewise for hacking programs. But I really don't care. This isn't JoeAverageGoesToBestBuyRun. I assume runners can get the programs they want for close enough to free that I just don't care.
Same thing with the OS listed in the book.
But bear in mind, just because I let runners have programs for free, they're still important. The number loaded into active memory still matters, and their legality still matters, so Joe Average will not be running around with Black Hammer.
For anything else; custom OS, obscure plot-related programs, skillsofts, etc, I just use the standard costs, standard programming times, etc.
One result of this is that suddenly the hacker isn't shelling out all those BP for programs (neither is anyone else, but they weren't anyway), hence rule #5 on my list. Now everyone gets what they pay for, not more, not less. Someone who wanted a crappy commlink still pays the next-to-nothing cost, and the super elite hacker still ends up investing about the same number of BP into their commlink, and everyone in between gets what they pay for, not more, not less.
In my rules, Common Use and Hacking programs are effectively free. The problem was, the Hacker ended up paying for all these programs, and then cracking them and distributing them to the entire group. It just made sense. So why is the hacker bearing the full burden of something the whole group gets? (so goes my reasoning) Plus, "piracy is the rule rather than the exception." I learned that on page 228.
I assume that Common Use programs either come with the OS, or maybe they're add-ons, but whatever. Regular people probably pay prices for them, which comes out of their lifestyle costs, and corporations likewise for hacking programs. But I really don't care. This isn't JoeAverageGoesToBestBuyRun. I assume runners can get the programs they want for close enough to free that I just don't care.
Same thing with the OS listed in the book.
But bear in mind, just because I let runners have programs for free, they're still important. The number loaded into active memory still matters, and their legality still matters, so Joe Average will not be running around with Black Hammer.
For anything else; custom OS, obscure plot-related programs, skillsofts, etc, I just use the standard costs, standard programming times, etc.
One result of this is that suddenly the hacker isn't shelling out all those BP for programs (neither is anyone else, but they weren't anyway), hence rule #5 on my list. Now everyone gets what they pay for, not more, not less. Someone who wanted a crappy commlink still pays the next-to-nothing cost, and the super elite hacker still ends up investing about the same number of BP into their commlink, and everyone in between gets what they pay for, not more, not less.
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