Mages and running out of BP and dying, Mages and running out of BP and dying Options

[RMR]

I find after trying to make my mages, after buying spells and the skills needed to cast the spells and summon the spirits. I also buy 1 sustaining focus at force 3 too They tend to have 1-2 contacts 10k Nuyuen and are living on the streets...Plus have no other skills in anything else but magic.... So do others find this happening too?

Plus I find that my mages die fast during runs. I try to stay away from combat but they are such heat scores.... Does this seem to happen too you to? Any suggestions?

Some questions what is a good spell selection for mages. I generally chose
Stunbolt
Stunball
Increased Reflexes (That i sustain in my focus during combat)
Physical mask (That i sustain in my focus other times like meets ect)
Tri Phantom
Levitate
Mind Probe
Heal

This look like a good list?

P.S sorry for the double post in the heading. This is my first post.

[Konsaki]

Welcome to the forums, but I'm afraid you goofed up and posted a question in our In Character forum. This forum is for playing games via posts.

[fistandantilus4....]

Afraid Konsaki is right. The name can be a bit confusing I suppose, but the Welcome to the Shadows are is for Play By Posts games. This one belongs in the 4th Edition forums. :)

[Talia Invierno]

First, because someone will ask it (and it's relevant) -- what's the rest of the build? Do you literally put all your bps into magic-related attributes and skills -- only?

Relying on spells alone can be a fast way to recycling PCs. The drain will always get you in the end, in any extended battle.

If you do want to keep focusing on a magic-only PC, heavy use of pre-conjured spirits might help: let them take the heat for you, and because they're pre-conjured you'll have had time to deal with the drain.

[sunnyside]

You might want to try not maxing all your stuff. Though I haven't made a mage in a while....


As for dying first that's sorta the cost of being a mage. You can have a lot of defensive abilities, but "Geek the mage first" has been the corporate security mantra as long as I can remember.

Of course the skill then may have something to do with it. Not having a good reaction and dodge can get you in a lot of trouble when you're target number one.

Also do you actually mean dying or losing a point of edge? You can burn that to keep breathing most times.

[JonathanC]

[RMR]

I put 200 points in the atributes and 40 in magic. I don't max and attributes but i but the major ones a mage needs 1 lower then max. for the last Shamanic elf I played I go for this

Agi 2 Cha 7
Body 5 Int 4
Reac 4 Logic 2
Str 2 Will 5

Magic 5

This left me with Skills like so

Assensing 1
Astral Combat 1
Perception 1
Dodge 1

Conjuring group 1
Sorcery 4

after that I went for 8 spells

this left me with very little BP for gear and contacts ect.

I did try just having stunball and had Improved invis instead of stunbolt.

[JonathanC]

Less body, less charisma, a little more agility. Those dodge skills are way too low. Also, you're spending like 30BP just on race, plus 15 on being a Magician, so you might want to take some negative qualities to balance that out. Anytime you're left with nothing but 1s in your skills, except for one at 4, you've seriously overspent someplace.

Here's an example off the top of my head. I only went with 7 spells. According to the chargen program, this is 387BP, wihch should give you room for a good contact and some gear.

Metatype : Elf
Magician

Attributes
Body: 4
Agility: 3
Reaction: 4
Strength: 2
Charisma: 6
Intuition: 4
Logic: 3
Willpower: 5

Edge: 2
Magic: 5
Initiative: 8
Essence: 6


Active Skills
Counterspelling : 4
Ritual Spellcasting : 4
Spellcasting : 4
Banishing : 2
Counterspelling : 4
Perception (Hearing) : 2
Dodge (Ranged Combat) : 2
Pistols (Semi-Automatics) : 1


Negative Qualities
Spirit bane
Gremlins 1
Allergy com/mild

Equipments
Sustaining Focus (Rating 3)

Spells
Stunbolt
Ball Lightning
Heal
Increase Reflexes
Improved Invisibility
Physical Barrier
Armor

[Jaid]

actually, i wouldn't bother with banishing, personally. a direct combat spell is much more efficient, and you want sorcery anyways.

if anything, i would say ditch the sorcery group and invest in a decent spellcasting and counterspelling, unless your concept really revolves around ritual spellcasting. i would also recommend summoning and registering at a decent level.

magic 5 is probably a good idea, but i don't know that i would otherwise spend all that much on attributes. 160 on normal should be fine, plus enough to get a decent edge.

beyond that, specialisations can really help make your other skills more affordable. a skill at 1 (specialisation +2) is only 6 BPs, and gives you 3 dice, which isn't too bad.

i do, however, highly recommend that you pick up a good assortment of negative qualities, because the extra BP is very nice.

[Glyph]

General advice:

Avoid sustaining foci at char-gen, since you can't get them high enough to enjoy the full effects of your spells, and the penalty for sustaining a spell is only 2 dice. Instead, if you get foci, get a power focus and/or a counterspelling(combat) focus.

Have a Body of 4 and an armored jacket. Have a Reaction of at least 4 (5 is better). I disagree with JonathanC on the Agility - mages, unlike nearly any other character, get little use from it. You definitely don't want to lower your Body and/or Charisma to raise Agility - those are both Attributes you use for soaking (damage or Drain).

Mentor spirits are a good bargain.

A high Edge is a must.

Improved Invisibility is a great defensive spell.

Skill-wise, binding and ritual sorcery can both wait till later. Banishing is not necessary if you have a decent combat spell. The big three to get are spellcasting, summoning, and counterspelling. Get one at 6 or two at five, the rest at 4, and take specializations. Assensing is good to have, but you can start it out at 1 and improve it later. As far as non-magical skills, the only real essentials are etiquette and perception (which can start out low), and dodge (which should be 4, maybe with a specialization in ranged).

To make a decent mage, you will probably need to take some negative qualities

[Buster]

Personally, I know I've never needed Banishing, it's better to buy a Spirit Slayer spell than waste BP or karma on Banishing. Summoning and Binding are all that's necessary and a good Power Focus will let you keep those skills low. The last time I played, I kept forgetting about my spirits so I'm toying with the idea of dumping conjuring altogether.

I've never used Ritual Sorcery and I regret I spent points on it. If I ever needed to ICBM someone, I'd rather ask a contact to do it for me. It takes hours to do anyways, so there's no reason to not wait another hour to drive over to a friend's house.

Here's my best advice for magicians: Skillwires let you shore up all your critical non-magician skills like Perception, Stealth, First Aid, etc. for wicked cheap. Even at alpha grade at chargen, they're still cheap. Upgrade to skillwires 4 as soon as you get your first paycheck. Talk your teammates into buying skillwires too and split the cost of skillsofts by hacking them and making free copies for everyone.

I haven't playtested this yet, but I've recently been exploring the idea of dumping full magician for mystic adept. I'm not sure I'll ever really need astral form or even astral perception, also mystic adept is slightly cheaper. Plus I really would like some of the new "mentat" adept abilities like Multitasking and Eidetic Sense. With Mystic Adept instead of full magician, I don't have to pay for Assensing or Astral Combat. I lose some Magic though. I'm still working on the character. If anyone has tried it, I'd love to hear your experiences and advice.

[JonathanC]

The thing is, Sorcery and Counterspelling together are like 8bp per rating, so you might as well spend 10 and get ritual spellcasting in the deal. If he's going to have such a high Charisma, leaving Banishing out seems like kind of a waste. I like Agility because I find firearms are a nice backup plan when spellcasting isn't feasible (due to either drain concerns or background count).

A rating 3 Sustaining Foci is expensive, but worth the cost for keeping Improved Reflexes sustained without losing dice, allowing you to sustain something else that's useful, like armor or Improved Invisibility.

[Buster]

[JonathanC]

I wasn't suggesting that he get the Conjuring group, just the Sorcery Group. I don't think I'd bother with skillwires on a mage.

[Jaid]

see, here's the thing:

a skill group is worth buying if and only if you intend to use at least 3 of the skills in the group on at least a semi-regular basis. ritual sorcery and banishing both don't make the cut, if you ask me... banishing because you can just disrupt the spirit with a spell, and ritual sorcery because LOS + optical sensory devices (mirrors, mage goggles, optical binoculars, etc) should be enough for almost anything a shadowrunning magician should need to do, and for anything else (as was noted) you can get someone else to do it.

for example, instead of spending 8 more BP for the sorcery group at 4, you can either have both spellcasting and counterspelling at 5, or you can buy a magician contact (one who does have ritual spellcasting), and so forth. much better buy than having ritual spellcasting imo.

[Glyph]

A skill group is cheaper than buying them up individually, and if it's a low-powered game with decent Karma awards, it's more cost-effective in the long run to get the package deals. But the guy asking for advice apparently has trouble with his characters dying on him, so my advice is more of the "pimp your guy at char-gen" variety.

If one skill is your bread and butter, don't get it in a skill group. If you get the sorcery skill group at 4, then that's what your spellcasting is stuck at. If you buy the spellcasting skill separately, you can get it at 6, then add a specialization. So you're rolling 8 dice, instead of 4. There's a reason why even the archetypes, which are hardly min-maxed, had the face, hacker, and street samurai avoid skill groups for their main specialties. And that was just to get one extra die (skills of 5 instead of 4).

[odinson]

[Whipstitch]

[Zolhex]

[JonathanC]

[Dashifen]

Physical Barrier is a handy spell, but it can be brought down rather quickly with burst or full auto fire unless you get a bunch of hits. Especially considering the rule that all you have to do is penetrate the barrier to bring it down entirely.

That being said, sometimes it's worth it to pull up a barrier just to make the opponents waste an action to bring down said barrier. They can be very effective against suppression fire, too.

[mfb]

more advice: carry a gun. a serious gun--a shotgun, an SMG, something. doesn't matter if you know how to use it or not, the point is to look like you're a shooter. if you're running around the firefight skyclad waving a wand, people might suspect you're a mage and shoot you. if you're hunkered down with some armor and a gun, you won't stand out, so you won't get shot at so much. and? invest in stealth. when the shooting starts, hide.

[Ravor]

Disclaimer: I haven't actually read your build, so just take everything in this post as general suggestions and ideas.


Don't count Ritual Magic out, unless I've misread something it doesn't appear that you actually need a group in order to use it and you never know when you might need to fry someone's brain from halfway across the world.

Also a while back there was a thread about the 10 best spells or something to that effect, I'd suggest reading it, especially FrankTrollman's posts. In fact, read everything he has to say about rule related issues whether you agree with him or not.

Never learn the Armor spell, instead learn Combat Reflexes, not only is Combat Reflexes not flashy, but its better to ahve an attack completely miss you then to be merely reduced.

Although you might not learn it at char gen, you really need to know some indirect combat spells, they are harder to Counterspell against plus you get to milk some extra damage by using the called shot rules, ect. Besides, a Fireball will still burn that mook hiding out your LOS whereas Manaball won't.

Burn 1-2 points of Magic for some well choosen cyber/bio, including ( Rating 3 ) Cybereyes, believe me, you'll never regret it.

Figure on doing alot of your damage with a gun, not only do you get to shoot twice per IP, you don't have to worry about drain, and you don't leave an Astral Sig floating around if you have to bail out in a hurry.

[fistandantilus4....]

Deflection is also a good alrenative to armor. I think Ravor means Combat Sense, not to be confused with Increased Reflexes.

Armor is a good spell because it can handle things that Combat Sense doesn't , like explosions. But for the purposes of what he's saying, it's better to not get hit at all than to get hit and try to roll to negate the damage.

[Ravor]

Yeah I meant Combat Sense, but unless the Mage opts to burn enough Magic to get Synaptic Boosters then Increased Reflexes is also a must have along with a Sustaining Focus to go along with it. (Don't bother trying to get 4 IPs though, the Drain and Focus cost just isn't worth it, settle for 2 or 3.)