I find after trying to make my mages, after buying spells and the skills needed to cast the spells and summon the spirits. I also buy 1 sustaining focus at force 3 too They tend to have 1-2 contacts 10k Nuyuen and are living on the streets...Plus have no other skills in anything else but magic.... So do others find this happening too?
Plus I find that my mages die fast during runs. I try to stay away from combat but they are such heat scores.... Does this seem to happen too you to? Any suggestions?
Some questions what is a good spell selection for mages. I generally chose
Stunbolt
Stunball
Increased Reflexes (That i sustain in my focus during combat)
Physical mask (That i sustain in my focus other times like meets ect)
Tri Phantom
Levitate
Mind Probe
Heal
This look like a good list?
P.S sorry for the double post in the heading. This is my first post.
Full Version: Mages and running out of BP and dying
Welcome to the forums, but I'm afraid you goofed up and posted a question in our In Character forum. This forum is for playing games via posts.
Afraid Konsaki is right. The name can be a bit confusing I suppose, but the Welcome to the Shadows are is for Play By Posts games. This one belongs in the 4th Edition forums. 
First, because someone will ask it (and it's relevant) -- what's the rest of the build? Do you literally put all your bps into magic-related attributes and skills -- only?
Relying on spells alone can be a fast way to recycling PCs. The drain will always get you in the end, in any extended battle.
If you do want to keep focusing on a magic-only PC, heavy use of pre-conjured spirits might help: let them take the heat for you, and because they're pre-conjured you'll have had time to deal with the drain.
Relying on spells alone can be a fast way to recycling PCs. The drain will always get you in the end, in any extended battle.
If you do want to keep focusing on a magic-only PC, heavy use of pre-conjured spirits might help: let them take the heat for you, and because they're pre-conjured you'll have had time to deal with the drain.
You might want to try not maxing all your stuff. Though I haven't made a mage in a while....
As for dying first that's sorta the cost of being a mage. You can have a lot of defensive abilities, but "Geek the mage first" has been the corporate security mantra as long as I can remember.
Of course the skill then may have something to do with it. Not having a good reaction and dodge can get you in a lot of trouble when you're target number one.
Also do you actually mean dying or losing a point of edge? You can burn that to keep breathing most times.
As for dying first that's sorta the cost of being a mage. You can have a lot of defensive abilities, but "Geek the mage first" has been the corporate security mantra as long as I can remember.
Of course the skill then may have something to do with it. Not having a good reaction and dodge can get you in a lot of trouble when you're target number one.
Also do you actually mean dying or losing a point of edge? You can burn that to keep breathing most times.
| QUOTE (RMR) |
| I find after trying to make my mages, after buying spells and the skills needed to cast the spells and summon the spirits. I also buy 1 sustaining focus at force 3 too They tend to have 1-2 contacts 10k Nuyuen and are living on the streets...Plus have no other skills in anything else but magic.... So do others find this happening too? Plus I find that my mages die fast during runs. I try to stay away from combat but they are such heat scores.... Does this seem to happen too you to? Any suggestions? Some questions what is a good spell selection for mages. I generally chose Stunbolt Stunball Increased Reflexes (That i sustain in my focus during combat) Physical mask (That i sustain in my focus other times like meets ect) Tri Phantom Levitate Mind Probe Heal This look like a good list? P.S sorry for the double post in the heading. This is my first post. |
I suggest ARMOR for combat situations. Yes, you glow like a candle, but if you're already going to be the object of attention, then having an extra 5 armor or so at the cost of being a glowstick is a good deal.
I might drop Levitate and Trid Phantasm in favor of Improved Invisibility and something that could help your whole group, like physical barrier.
Also, are you sure you need stunbolt AND stunball? I agree with having one single and one group attack, but you're limiting your options a lot. Plus, since this is a direct combat spell, the group version will only hit enemies in range that you can see. You're better off going with an elemental area attack, like fireball or ball lightning. The drain will be a killer, but tossing huge group attacks is a hail mary play anyhow.
As for the lack of skills...this comes from investing heavily in the magic skill groups. While I do think the Spellcasting group is a worthwhile investment, the conjuring group...not so much. Binding is expensive and time consuming; you can wait on that. Frankly, if you think you can get along without summoning spirits, I'd just toss a few points in Banishing as a hedge against magical security. On the other hand, Materialized spirits are a force to be reckoned with in combat, due to their immunity to normal weapons. So I'd go with Spellcasting (the group), Summoning, and Banishing. And don't try to put a bunch of 4s in everything...think about how much you really need to Assense as a starting character. Chances are you've already invested in a fairly high Intuition and Edge, and those should get you through.
My suggestion spell list:
Stunbolt
Ball Lightning (fireball is too commonplace; plus, this will be nice against drones)
Armor (wear an armored jacket if you have the body; vest otherwise. With this spell, your ballistic will be higher than a street sam)
Improved Invisibility (this should keep you from dying immediately in combat)
Increased Reflexes
Mind Probe (honestly, this is kind of a cheap way out of doing real detective work; you might want to go with another good utility spell, like Trid Phantasm or Ice Sheet)
Heal
Physical Barrier (provides cover for you AND your chummers)
I put 200 points in the atributes and 40 in magic. I don't max and attributes but i but the major ones a mage needs 1 lower then max. for the last Shamanic elf I played I go for this
Agi 2 Cha 7
Body 5 Int 4
Reac 4 Logic 2
Str 2 Will 5
Magic 5
This left me with Skills like so
Assensing 1
Astral Combat 1
Perception 1
Dodge 1
Conjuring group 1
Sorcery 4
after that I went for 8 spells
this left me with very little BP for gear and contacts ect.
I did try just having stunball and had Improved invis instead of stunbolt.
Agi 2 Cha 7
Body 5 Int 4
Reac 4 Logic 2
Str 2 Will 5
Magic 5
This left me with Skills like so
Assensing 1
Astral Combat 1
Perception 1
Dodge 1
Conjuring group 1
Sorcery 4
after that I went for 8 spells
this left me with very little BP for gear and contacts ect.
I did try just having stunball and had Improved invis instead of stunbolt.
Less body, less charisma, a little more agility. Those dodge skills are way too low. Also, you're spending like 30BP just on race, plus 15 on being a Magician, so you might want to take some negative qualities to balance that out. Anytime you're left with nothing but 1s in your skills, except for one at 4, you've seriously overspent someplace.
Here's an example off the top of my head. I only went with 7 spells. According to the chargen program, this is 387BP, wihch should give you room for a good contact and some gear.
Metatype : Elf
Magician
Attributes
Body: 4
Agility: 3
Reaction: 4
Strength: 2
Charisma: 6
Intuition: 4
Logic: 3
Willpower: 5
Edge: 2
Magic: 5
Initiative: 8
Essence: 6
Active Skills
Counterspelling : 4
Ritual Spellcasting : 4
Spellcasting : 4
Banishing : 2
Counterspelling : 4
Perception (Hearing) : 2
Dodge (Ranged Combat) : 2
Pistols (Semi-Automatics) : 1
Negative Qualities
Spirit bane
Gremlins 1
Allergy com/mild
Equipments
Sustaining Focus (Rating 3)
Spells
Stunbolt
Ball Lightning
Heal
Increase Reflexes
Improved Invisibility
Physical Barrier
Armor
Here's an example off the top of my head. I only went with 7 spells. According to the chargen program, this is 387BP, wihch should give you room for a good contact and some gear.
Metatype : Elf
Magician
Attributes
Body: 4
Agility: 3
Reaction: 4
Strength: 2
Charisma: 6
Intuition: 4
Logic: 3
Willpower: 5
Edge: 2
Magic: 5
Initiative: 8
Essence: 6
Active Skills
Counterspelling : 4
Ritual Spellcasting : 4
Spellcasting : 4
Banishing : 2
Counterspelling : 4
Perception (Hearing) : 2
Dodge (Ranged Combat) : 2
Pistols (Semi-Automatics) : 1
Negative Qualities
Spirit bane
Gremlins 1
Allergy com/mild
Equipments
Sustaining Focus (Rating 3)
Spells
Stunbolt
Ball Lightning
Heal
Increase Reflexes
Improved Invisibility
Physical Barrier
Armor
actually, i wouldn't bother with banishing, personally. a direct combat spell is much more efficient, and you want sorcery anyways.
if anything, i would say ditch the sorcery group and invest in a decent spellcasting and counterspelling, unless your concept really revolves around ritual spellcasting. i would also recommend summoning and registering at a decent level.
magic 5 is probably a good idea, but i don't know that i would otherwise spend all that much on attributes. 160 on normal should be fine, plus enough to get a decent edge.
beyond that, specialisations can really help make your other skills more affordable. a skill at 1 (specialisation +2) is only 6 BPs, and gives you 3 dice, which isn't too bad.
i do, however, highly recommend that you pick up a good assortment of negative qualities, because the extra BP is very nice.
if anything, i would say ditch the sorcery group and invest in a decent spellcasting and counterspelling, unless your concept really revolves around ritual spellcasting. i would also recommend summoning and registering at a decent level.
magic 5 is probably a good idea, but i don't know that i would otherwise spend all that much on attributes. 160 on normal should be fine, plus enough to get a decent edge.
beyond that, specialisations can really help make your other skills more affordable. a skill at 1 (specialisation +2) is only 6 BPs, and gives you 3 dice, which isn't too bad.
i do, however, highly recommend that you pick up a good assortment of negative qualities, because the extra BP is very nice.
General advice:
Avoid sustaining foci at char-gen, since you can't get them high enough to enjoy the full effects of your spells, and the penalty for sustaining a spell is only 2 dice. Instead, if you get foci, get a power focus and/or a counterspelling(combat) focus.
Have a Body of 4 and an armored jacket. Have a Reaction of at least 4 (5 is better). I disagree with JonathanC on the Agility - mages, unlike nearly any other character, get little use from it. You definitely don't want to lower your Body and/or Charisma to raise Agility - those are both Attributes you use for soaking (damage or Drain).
Mentor spirits are a good bargain.
A high Edge is a must.
Improved Invisibility is a great defensive spell.
Skill-wise, binding and ritual sorcery can both wait till later. Banishing is not necessary if you have a decent combat spell. The big three to get are spellcasting, summoning, and counterspelling. Get one at 6 or two at five, the rest at 4, and take specializations. Assensing is good to have, but you can start it out at 1 and improve it later. As far as non-magical skills, the only real essentials are etiquette and perception (which can start out low), and dodge (which should be 4, maybe with a specialization in ranged).
To make a decent mage, you will probably need to take some negative qualities
Avoid sustaining foci at char-gen, since you can't get them high enough to enjoy the full effects of your spells, and the penalty for sustaining a spell is only 2 dice. Instead, if you get foci, get a power focus and/or a counterspelling(combat) focus.
Have a Body of 4 and an armored jacket. Have a Reaction of at least 4 (5 is better). I disagree with JonathanC on the Agility - mages, unlike nearly any other character, get little use from it. You definitely don't want to lower your Body and/or Charisma to raise Agility - those are both Attributes you use for soaking (damage or Drain).
Mentor spirits are a good bargain.
A high Edge is a must.
Improved Invisibility is a great defensive spell.
Skill-wise, binding and ritual sorcery can both wait till later. Banishing is not necessary if you have a decent combat spell. The big three to get are spellcasting, summoning, and counterspelling. Get one at 6 or two at five, the rest at 4, and take specializations. Assensing is good to have, but you can start it out at 1 and improve it later. As far as non-magical skills, the only real essentials are etiquette and perception (which can start out low), and dodge (which should be 4, maybe with a specialization in ranged).
To make a decent mage, you will probably need to take some negative qualities
Personally, I know I've never needed Banishing, it's better to buy a Spirit Slayer spell than waste BP or karma on Banishing. Summoning and Binding are all that's necessary and a good Power Focus will let you keep those skills low. The last time I played, I kept forgetting about my spirits so I'm toying with the idea of dumping conjuring altogether.
I've never used Ritual Sorcery and I regret I spent points on it. If I ever needed to ICBM someone, I'd rather ask a contact to do it for me. It takes hours to do anyways, so there's no reason to not wait another hour to drive over to a friend's house.
Here's my best advice for magicians: Skillwires let you shore up all your critical non-magician skills like Perception, Stealth, First Aid, etc. for wicked cheap. Even at alpha grade at chargen, they're still cheap. Upgrade to skillwires 4 as soon as you get your first paycheck. Talk your teammates into buying skillwires too and split the cost of skillsofts by hacking them and making free copies for everyone.
I haven't playtested this yet, but I've recently been exploring the idea of dumping full magician for mystic adept. I'm not sure I'll ever really need astral form or even astral perception, also mystic adept is slightly cheaper. Plus I really would like some of the new "mentat" adept abilities like Multitasking and Eidetic Sense. With Mystic Adept instead of full magician, I don't have to pay for Assensing or Astral Combat. I lose some Magic though. I'm still working on the character. If anyone has tried it, I'd love to hear your experiences and advice.
I've never used Ritual Sorcery and I regret I spent points on it. If I ever needed to ICBM someone, I'd rather ask a contact to do it for me. It takes hours to do anyways, so there's no reason to not wait another hour to drive over to a friend's house.
Here's my best advice for magicians: Skillwires let you shore up all your critical non-magician skills like Perception, Stealth, First Aid, etc. for wicked cheap. Even at alpha grade at chargen, they're still cheap. Upgrade to skillwires 4 as soon as you get your first paycheck. Talk your teammates into buying skillwires too and split the cost of skillsofts by hacking them and making free copies for everyone.
I haven't playtested this yet, but I've recently been exploring the idea of dumping full magician for mystic adept. I'm not sure I'll ever really need astral form or even astral perception, also mystic adept is slightly cheaper. Plus I really would like some of the new "mentat" adept abilities like Multitasking and Eidetic Sense. With Mystic Adept instead of full magician, I don't have to pay for Assensing or Astral Combat. I lose some Magic though. I'm still working on the character. If anyone has tried it, I'd love to hear your experiences and advice.
The thing is, Sorcery and Counterspelling together are like 8bp per rating, so you might as well spend 10 and get ritual spellcasting in the deal. If he's going to have such a high Charisma, leaving Banishing out seems like kind of a waste. I like Agility because I find firearms are a nice backup plan when spellcasting isn't feasible (due to either drain concerns or background count).
A rating 3 Sustaining Foci is expensive, but worth the cost for keeping Improved Reflexes sustained without losing dice, allowing you to sustain something else that's useful, like armor or Improved Invisibility.
A rating 3 Sustaining Foci is expensive, but worth the cost for keeping Improved Reflexes sustained without losing dice, allowing you to sustain something else that's useful, like armor or Improved Invisibility.
| QUOTE (JonathanC @ Jun 28 2007, 10:37 PM) |
| The thing is, Sorcery and Counterspelling together are like 8bp per rating, so you might as well spend 10 and get ritual spellcasting in the deal. If he's going to have such a high Charisma, leaving Banishing out seems like kind of a waste. I like Agility because I find firearms are a nice backup plan when spellcasting isn't feasible (due to either drain concerns or background count). A rating 3 Sustaining Foci is expensive, but worth the cost for keeping Improved Reflexes sustained without losing dice, allowing you to sustain something else that's useful, like armor or Improved Invisibility. |
True, it seems cheap but for the 16 points you spend on grouping sorcery and conjuring to get ritual sorcery and banishing for "just in case" you could have spent the 16 points to get 80k nuyen to buy alpha skillwires(3) and 7 skillsofts(3) or another sustaining foci (3) or 5 more spells that you would get some real use out of all the time.
I wasn't suggesting that he get the Conjuring group, just the Sorcery Group. I don't think I'd bother with skillwires on a mage.
see, here's the thing:
a skill group is worth buying if and only if you intend to use at least 3 of the skills in the group on at least a semi-regular basis. ritual sorcery and banishing both don't make the cut, if you ask me... banishing because you can just disrupt the spirit with a spell, and ritual sorcery because LOS + optical sensory devices (mirrors, mage goggles, optical binoculars, etc) should be enough for almost anything a shadowrunning magician should need to do, and for anything else (as was noted) you can get someone else to do it.
for example, instead of spending 8 more BP for the sorcery group at 4, you can either have both spellcasting and counterspelling at 5, or you can buy a magician contact (one who does have ritual spellcasting), and so forth. much better buy than having ritual spellcasting imo.
a skill group is worth buying if and only if you intend to use at least 3 of the skills in the group on at least a semi-regular basis. ritual sorcery and banishing both don't make the cut, if you ask me... banishing because you can just disrupt the spirit with a spell, and ritual sorcery because LOS + optical sensory devices (mirrors, mage goggles, optical binoculars, etc) should be enough for almost anything a shadowrunning magician should need to do, and for anything else (as was noted) you can get someone else to do it.
for example, instead of spending 8 more BP for the sorcery group at 4, you can either have both spellcasting and counterspelling at 5, or you can buy a magician contact (one who does have ritual spellcasting), and so forth. much better buy than having ritual spellcasting imo.
A skill group is cheaper than buying them up individually, and if it's a low-powered game with decent Karma awards, it's more cost-effective in the long run to get the package deals. But the guy asking for advice apparently has trouble with his characters dying on him, so my advice is more of the "pimp your guy at char-gen" variety.
If one skill is your bread and butter, don't get it in a skill group. If you get the sorcery skill group at 4, then that's what your spellcasting is stuck at. If you buy the spellcasting skill separately, you can get it at 6, then add a specialization. So you're rolling 8 dice, instead of 4. There's a reason why even the archetypes, which are hardly min-maxed, had the face, hacker, and street samurai avoid skill groups for their main specialties. And that was just to get one extra die (skills of 5 instead of 4).
If one skill is your bread and butter, don't get it in a skill group. If you get the sorcery skill group at 4, then that's what your spellcasting is stuck at. If you buy the spellcasting skill separately, you can get it at 6, then add a specialization. So you're rolling 8 dice, instead of 4. There's a reason why even the archetypes, which are hardly min-maxed, had the face, hacker, and street samurai avoid skill groups for their main specialties. And that was just to get one extra die (skills of 5 instead of 4).
| QUOTE (JonathanC) |
| The thing is, Sorcery and Counterspelling together are like 8bp per rating, so you might as well spend 10 and get ritual spellcasting in the deal. If he's going to have such a high Charisma, leaving Banishing out seems like kind of a waste. I like Agility because I find firearms are a nice backup plan when spellcasting isn't feasible (due to either drain concerns or background count). A rating 3 Sustaining Foci is expensive, but worth the cost for keeping Improved Reflexes sustained without losing dice, allowing you to sustain something else that's useful, like armor or Improved Invisibility. |
don't you need a sustaining foci force 4 for making improved reflexes good?
| QUOTE (odinson @ Jun 29 2007, 02:00 AM) |
| don't you need a sustaining foci force 4 for making improved reflexes good? |
Not really. Even a weak Increase Reflexes can net you an extra pass, and that particular spell adds directly to your initiative score while still stacking with Reaction Enhancers, which means that a spell caster with enhancers and increased reflexes up can have the highest effective initiative score out of any archetype, at least straight out of chargen, anyway. Only having 1 or 2 extra initiative passes isn't that big of a deal as long as you get to go first and pack Turn to Goo.
Anyway, I think it's important emphasize that Jonathan's recommendation of defensive spells is best interpreted as a way to build upon a good defensive foundation rather than some panacea. In SR4, offense beats defense, generally speaking, and just about any character needs to layer mundane armor, high defensive skills AND an x-factor (cover, magical aid, etc.) to consistently come out of combat unscathed.
My recommendation for any young mage is to take some quality cyberware (a point's worth) and snag some gymnastics or dodge skill. For example, you can fit in Cybereyes 3, Synthacardium 3, Skillwire 2 (alpha), Platelet Factories (cultured), and Reflex Recorder (Gymnastics) for 1 essence. That combo is fairly cost effective, helps the mage avoid negative dicepool modifiers, and the activesofts can free up some points to pick up some gymnastics skill to use for Full Defense. And last, but not least, remember that not all mages should take on the role of aggressive combat mage. Always remember that any mook street samurai can kill a guy, but it takes a mage to do astral overwatch, provide counterspell support and magically heal the wounded after combat. Never be afraid to just crap a wimpy spirit out or turn one guy to goo and then just sit on full defense if it looks like the opposition is nothing the samurai can't handle. It's what samurai live for, after all.
| QUOTE (JonathanC) |
| The thing is, Sorcery and Counterspelling together are like 8bp per rating, so you might as well spend 10 and get ritual spellcasting in the deal. |
Ahh but take that all the way 4 BP per skill at rating 4 that's 16 BP per skill.
Now spellcasting and counterspelling total 32 BP where as if you take the group your now out 40 BP take the 2 skills at 4 and save 8 BP that's another skill at rating 2 or 4 specializations.
Like maybe spellcasting 4 combat +2 and counterspelling 4 combat +2 then from there either 2 more specializations or a rating 1 skill.
Just buying what you need will spread the points out alot more so long as you take the time to do the math to be sure your getting the best deal as it were.
| QUOTE (Whipstitch) | ||
Not really. Even a weak Increase Reflexes can net you an extra pass, and that particular spell adds directly to your initiative score while still stacking with Reaction Enhancers, which means that a spell caster with enhancers and increased reflexes up can have the highest effective initiative score out of any archetype, at least straight out of chargen, anyway. Only having 1 or 2 extra initiative passes isn't that big of a deal as long as you get to go first and pack Turn to Goo. Anyway, I think it's important emphasize that Jonathan's recommendation of defensive spells is best interpreted as a way to build upon a good defensive foundation rather than some panacea. In SR4, offense beats defense, generally speaking, and just about any character needs to layer mundane armor, high defensive skills AND an x-factor (cover, magical aid, etc.) to consistently come out of combat unscathed. My recommendation for any young mage is to take some quality cyberware (a point's worth) and snag some gymnastics or dodge skill. For example, you can fit in Cybereyes 3, Synthacardium 3, Skillwire 2 (alpha), Platelet Factories (cultured), and Reflex Recorder (Gymnastics) for 1 essence. That combo is fairly cost effective, helps the mage avoid negative dicepool modifiers, and the activesofts can free up some points to pick up some gymnastics skill to use for Full Defense. And last, but not least, remember that not all mages should take on the role of aggressive combat mage. Always remember that any mook street samurai can kill a guy, but it takes a mage to do astral overwatch, provide counterspell support and magically heal the wounded after combat. Never be afraid to just crap a wimpy spirit out or turn one guy to goo and then just sit on full defense if it looks like the opposition is nothing the samurai can't handle. It's what samurai live for, after all. |
Thanks for clarifying this. Mundane armor is an absolute must; when I read that he was having lethality problems and didn't have the armor spell, that was the first red flag that came up. A force 3 Improved Reflexes in a force 3 sustaining focus gives you a total of 3 initiative passes, as much as anyone you're likely to run into as a starting runner. Yes, you could have 4, but that could come later.
On the other hand, you could cast a force 3 invis spell into the focus and sustain a force 4 increase reflexes spell on your own, and be faster than just about everyone and invisible to boot.
Another tactic would be to forget about the armor spell and throw up a physical barrier on your first action for extra protection, then toss stunbolts from behind your self-made cover. Physical barriers are translucent, and reaading the spell description on page 204, it doesn't impede spells at all, and imposes a -1 penalty on attacks directed through the barrier due to visibility. I'm not sure that penalty applies to spells, particularly direct combat spells. And even if it does, a -1 penalty is a small price to pay for forcing your enemies to knock down a magical wall before they can hurt you.
Physical Barrier is a handy spell, but it can be brought down rather quickly with burst or full auto fire unless you get a bunch of hits. Especially considering the rule that all you have to do is penetrate the barrier to bring it down entirely.
That being said, sometimes it's worth it to pull up a barrier just to make the opponents waste an action to bring down said barrier. They can be very effective against suppression fire, too.
That being said, sometimes it's worth it to pull up a barrier just to make the opponents waste an action to bring down said barrier. They can be very effective against suppression fire, too.
more advice: carry a gun. a serious gun--a shotgun, an SMG, something. doesn't matter if you know how to use it or not, the point is to look like you're a shooter. if you're running around the firefight skyclad waving a wand, people might suspect you're a mage and shoot you. if you're hunkered down with some armor and a gun, you won't stand out, so you won't get shot at so much. and? invest in stealth. when the shooting starts, hide.
Disclaimer: I haven't actually read your build, so just take everything in this post as general suggestions and ideas.
Don't count Ritual Magic out, unless I've misread something it doesn't appear that you actually need a group in order to use it and you never know when you might need to fry someone's brain from halfway across the world.
Also a while back there was a thread about the 10 best spells or something to that effect, I'd suggest reading it, especially FrankTrollman's posts. In fact, read everything he has to say about rule related issues whether you agree with him or not.
Never learn the Armor spell, instead learn Combat Reflexes, not only is Combat Reflexes not flashy, but its better to ahve an attack completely miss you then to be merely reduced.
Although you might not learn it at char gen, you really need to know some indirect combat spells, they are harder to Counterspell against plus you get to milk some extra damage by using the called shot rules, ect. Besides, a Fireball will still burn that mook hiding out your LOS whereas Manaball won't.
Burn 1-2 points of Magic for some well choosen cyber/bio, including ( Rating 3 ) Cybereyes, believe me, you'll never regret it.
Figure on doing alot of your damage with a gun, not only do you get to shoot twice per IP, you don't have to worry about drain, and you don't leave an Astral Sig floating around if you have to bail out in a hurry.
Don't count Ritual Magic out, unless I've misread something it doesn't appear that you actually need a group in order to use it and you never know when you might need to fry someone's brain from halfway across the world.
Also a while back there was a thread about the 10 best spells or something to that effect, I'd suggest reading it, especially FrankTrollman's posts. In fact, read everything he has to say about rule related issues whether you agree with him or not.
Never learn the Armor spell, instead learn Combat Reflexes, not only is Combat Reflexes not flashy, but its better to ahve an attack completely miss you then to be merely reduced.
Although you might not learn it at char gen, you really need to know some indirect combat spells, they are harder to Counterspell against plus you get to milk some extra damage by using the called shot rules, ect. Besides, a Fireball will still burn that mook hiding out your LOS whereas Manaball won't.
Burn 1-2 points of Magic for some well choosen cyber/bio, including ( Rating 3 ) Cybereyes, believe me, you'll never regret it.
Figure on doing alot of your damage with a gun, not only do you get to shoot twice per IP, you don't have to worry about drain, and you don't leave an Astral Sig floating around if you have to bail out in a hurry.
Deflection is also a good alrenative to armor. I think Ravor means Combat Sense, not to be confused with Increased Reflexes.
Armor is a good spell because it can handle things that Combat Sense doesn't , like explosions. But for the purposes of what he's saying, it's better to not get hit at all than to get hit and try to roll to negate the damage.
Armor is a good spell because it can handle things that Combat Sense doesn't , like explosions. But for the purposes of what he's saying, it's better to not get hit at all than to get hit and try to roll to negate the damage.
Yeah I meant Combat Sense, but unless the Mage opts to burn enough Magic to get Synaptic Boosters then Increased Reflexes is also a must have along with a Sustaining Focus to go along with it. (Don't bother trying to get 4 IPs though, the Drain and Focus cost just isn't worth it, settle for 2 or 3.)
There are a few good things to know when building a magician.
1. Don't spend BP in magical skills you will never use, this also means don't purchase the skill group. For me these tend to be:
banishing(just use stunbolt)
binding(magicians usually don't have a high CHA)
ritual spellcasting(WORTHLESS, unless you have a group of mages and the metamagic for it),
2. Always max out on spells. Get your spellcasting to 6 at chargen and get your 12 spells. It is cheaper this way.
3. Stunbolt and Stunball are all you really need for offensive spells. It is nice to have the option to stun instead of kill anyways. If you end up needing to kill them, just stab/shoot them.
4. Get mentor spirits that complement what you are trying to do. The Raven is great. with +2 air/+2 manip spells. Air spirits one of the best types of spirits you can summon.
5. Be cunning and resourceful with your spells. With a list of 12 spells you should be able to get yourself out of a lot of bad situations and find solutions to those impossible missions the team might come across.
6. Dwarves make the best magicians
7. Some other spells you could look into:
influence and alter memory
turn to goo
deflection (I prefer over armor)
physical barrier
control actions
Also keep in mind your mentor spirit when choosing spells. Since I have the Raven for my current build I have a higher amount of manipulation spells to cash in on the +2 dice bonus.
8. Get the assensing and always remember to clear your own astral signatures
9. Summon a powerful spirit at the beginning of play to create high force wards for you. As long as the spirit isn't disrupted from the ward creation process you need not worry.
10. It helps to have a high edge as a caster. I have mine at 5 on my current build. It helps ensure you can summon that high force spirit or do a lot of damage with stunbolt.
11. Instead of a sustaining focus I would go with a Power Focus 2 at chargen, they are cheaper at chargen. They can also be used to offset the -2 penalty when casting, though this won't help on all rolls. It would be far better to buy a sustaining focus later in the game, don't worry you will get plenty.
12. Psyche is amazing for magicians. You not only get just a -1 penalty for sustaining but a +1 to Logic(drain stat). The side-effects aren't so bad compared to the other drugs. Since your a dwarf you should have a high body and willpower for those addiction tests.
13. Get money by using turn to goo on corpses with cyberware. If your GM won't allow this then give the corpses to Tamanous, the Body Mall, or ghouls. If you have mind probe, influence, and alter memory at your disposal you can scam a lot of people and get things for free.
14. If at all possible it pay to have a good infiltration skill and agility attribute. This isn't something I can say I have with my current mage. I just ran out of BP to allocate. If you are starting out with higher than normal BP, it would be a good place to allocate some.
These are all from the completely mechanical side. Of course you have to create a believable mage during chargen. You may find not all of these tips fit in to who you want your mage to be.
1. Don't spend BP in magical skills you will never use, this also means don't purchase the skill group. For me these tend to be:
banishing(just use stunbolt)
binding(magicians usually don't have a high CHA)
ritual spellcasting(WORTHLESS, unless you have a group of mages and the metamagic for it),
2. Always max out on spells. Get your spellcasting to 6 at chargen and get your 12 spells. It is cheaper this way.
3. Stunbolt and Stunball are all you really need for offensive spells. It is nice to have the option to stun instead of kill anyways. If you end up needing to kill them, just stab/shoot them.
4. Get mentor spirits that complement what you are trying to do. The Raven is great. with +2 air/+2 manip spells. Air spirits one of the best types of spirits you can summon.
5. Be cunning and resourceful with your spells. With a list of 12 spells you should be able to get yourself out of a lot of bad situations and find solutions to those impossible missions the team might come across.
6. Dwarves make the best magicians
7. Some other spells you could look into:
influence and alter memory
turn to goo
deflection (I prefer over armor)
physical barrier
control actions
Also keep in mind your mentor spirit when choosing spells. Since I have the Raven for my current build I have a higher amount of manipulation spells to cash in on the +2 dice bonus.
8. Get the assensing and always remember to clear your own astral signatures
9. Summon a powerful spirit at the beginning of play to create high force wards for you. As long as the spirit isn't disrupted from the ward creation process you need not worry.
10. It helps to have a high edge as a caster. I have mine at 5 on my current build. It helps ensure you can summon that high force spirit or do a lot of damage with stunbolt.
11. Instead of a sustaining focus I would go with a Power Focus 2 at chargen, they are cheaper at chargen. They can also be used to offset the -2 penalty when casting, though this won't help on all rolls. It would be far better to buy a sustaining focus later in the game, don't worry you will get plenty.
12. Psyche is amazing for magicians. You not only get just a -1 penalty for sustaining but a +1 to Logic(drain stat). The side-effects aren't so bad compared to the other drugs. Since your a dwarf you should have a high body and willpower for those addiction tests.
13. Get money by using turn to goo on corpses with cyberware. If your GM won't allow this then give the corpses to Tamanous, the Body Mall, or ghouls. If you have mind probe, influence, and alter memory at your disposal you can scam a lot of people and get things for free.
14. If at all possible it pay to have a good infiltration skill and agility attribute. This isn't something I can say I have with my current mage. I just ran out of BP to allocate. If you are starting out with higher than normal BP, it would be a good place to allocate some.
These are all from the completely mechanical side. Of course you have to create a believable mage during chargen. You may find not all of these tips fit in to who you want your mage to be.
I always buy the 8/6 armor. and I like having lots of utility spells So from what I gathered from the responses is that i can cut back on my attributes a little to get some points back. I like having 1 sustaining focus right off the bat too. I'll think on it more.
Might just cut one of your spells altogether too, you can always learn more spells with earned Karma
I'm with Eleazar, max out Spellcasting and buy the max number of spells at chargen. They are much more expensive after the game starts. This way you start off with a wide range of options, including as E said, ways to solve otherwise impossible problems. Personally, I over-max my spellcasting with Aptitude and buy 14 spells at chargen. I need every one of them (and wish I could buy more).
| QUOTE (Eleazar) |
| There are a few good things to know when building a magician. 1. Don't spend BP in magical skills you will never use, this also means don't purchase the skill group. For me these tend to be: banishing(just use stunbolt) binding(magicians usually don't have a high CHA) ritual spellcasting(WORTHLESS, unless you have a group of mages and the metamagic for it), 2. Always max out on spells. Get your spellcasting to 6 at chargen and get your 12 spells. It is cheaper this way. 3. Stunbolt and Stunball are all you really need for offensive spells. It is nice to have the option to stun instead of kill anyways. If you end up needing to kill them, just stab/shoot them. 4. Get mentor spirits that complement what you are trying to do. The Raven is great. with +2 air/+2 manip spells. Air spirits one of the best types of spirits you can summon. 5. Be cunning and resourceful with your spells. With a list of 12 spells you should be able to get yourself out of a lot of bad situations and find solutions to those impossible missions the team might come across. 6. more to come, have to leave. |
I disagree on certain points.
1) Binding can be very powerful unless you have high Edge. You will need Binding for your Ally Spirit and having to default is never good and having an Ally Spirit is good.
2) Maxing the spells you'd need. There are many useful spells, but not all these spells are necessary for your PC.
3) Manabolt is useful dealing with Magicians. Their Physical Damage track is usually shorter than their Stun Damage track.
| QUOTE (toturi @ Jun 29 2007, 06:50 PM) |
| 3) Manabolt is useful dealing with Magicians. Their Physical Damage track is usually shorter than their Stun Damage track. |
I agree, it's also great as a spirit zapper. I like Powerbolt better though if i was down to a few spells because it's a multi-utility spell because you can use it on drones, vehicles, security cameras, doors, handcuffs, etc.
| QUOTE (toturi) |
| 1) Binding can be very powerful unless you have high Edge. You will need Binding for your Ally Spirit and having to default is never good and having an Ally Spirit is good. |
Personally, I find masking, quickening, and other metamagics would come before getting an ally spirit. That, and ally spirits never really appealed to me. If I was a shaman I could definitely see taking binding.
I don't find banishing, binding, and ritual sorcery worthless, per se. They are good to pick up later in the game. But magicians have a lot of skills and options open to them, so to be effective in a certain role, you need to pare your character down to the essentials, and maximize your effectiveness in those areas. This is not to say that generalists can't be fun, but for this particular situation (characters dying in combat a lot), min-maxing seems to be the way to go.
Two things I neglected in my general advice earlier.
One, line of sight can be a pain, but it can also work in your favor. Tinted one-way glass (the standard for most vehicles), mage goggles, and endoscopes can let you target enemies who won't even know where the attack is coming from.
Two, if you are getting hammered in firefights, you might consider summoning a spirit ahead of time, and letting it do your fighting for you.
Two things I neglected in my general advice earlier.
One, line of sight can be a pain, but it can also work in your favor. Tinted one-way glass (the standard for most vehicles), mage goggles, and endoscopes can let you target enemies who won't even know where the attack is coming from.
Two, if you are getting hammered in firefights, you might consider summoning a spirit ahead of time, and letting it do your fighting for you.
I agree, summon your unbound spirit first thing in the morning right after you brush your teeth and again in the evening right after sunset. It should be part of your daily routine as an Awakened criminal in 2070. That way you can First Aid any drain while you have plenty of time. You don't have to have the spirit follow you around everywhere, so you can dismiss him back to his favorite metaplane to be called back with a Simple action as soon as you need him.
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