 Eidetic Sense Memory & 3D Memory, Differences and uses |
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 Jul 7 2007, 05:03 PM
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#26
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Shooting Target  Group: Members Posts: 1,677 Joined: 5-June 03 Member No.: 4,689  |
If a writer is reading this: ruling, please? Are these categories closed to blind PCs? |
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Jul 7 2007, 07:31 PM
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#27
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
they do the same thing. the only major difference is that with one, you have to know to use it ahead of time. anything you could do with 3DM, you could do with ESM. anything you could do with ESM, you could do with 3DM as long as you had the foresight/luck to memorize the correct area. there are not enough rules-based differences between their application; one is simply better than the other. sure, 3DM lets you go back to a scene and notice things you didn't notice before--but how do you determine what you did and did not notice, with ESM? if you happen to stand around in a room with an open book on the table, how does the GM determine later whether or not you happened to glance at the book and see what was written in it? re: concealability, there's a note in the description of the extendable baton. |
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Jul 7 2007, 08:06 PM
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#28
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 433 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Somewhere in Iraq Member No.: 1,789 |
Actually, the extendable baton and the knife have a very, very distinct detail that anyone just picking up the BBB would notice: the damage. The extendable baton does stun while the knife does physical. That is the defining difference between the two. The rest can be misconstrued but not the damage.
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Jul 7 2007, 08:20 PM
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#29
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
In SR4, hard blunt weapons deal physical damage.
Beating someone with a baseball bat will hurt and eventually kill him. |
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Jul 7 2007, 08:59 PM
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#30
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 |
You're right, anyone picking up the BBB would notice, that they both do physical. Obviously you didn't pick it up to make this post. Difference between the two include, skill used for combat, skill used for parrying, cost, reach, and concealability when the baton is extended. |
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Jul 7 2007, 09:47 PM
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#31
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,677 Joined: 5-June 03 Member No.: 4,689 |
So -- we seem to be agreed that what those two weapons do is much the same (damage, armour penetration), and that the key differences is how they do it (cost, reach, which skill)?
Btw -- it took me a year on Dumpshock before I finally learned what BBB stood for (Big Black/Blue Book). It's a damn hard thing to search for, not least since the search function requires at least four characters. What does RAW stand for? |
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Jul 7 2007, 10:01 PM
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#32
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 |
Rules As Written
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Jul 7 2007, 10:18 PM
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#33
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
cost, reach, and skill are strongly-defined differences. the differences between 3DM and ESM are not strongly defined. since they do the same thing, that pretty much means they overlap. the only reason you'd take one over the other is the fact that 3DM has to be used ahead of time, and ESM can be used anytime.
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Jul 7 2007, 10:40 PM
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#34
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,246 Joined: 8-June 07 Member No.: 11,869 |
Anyone who mentions batons or knives again in this thread will first be beaten then stabbed. :D
Back to the topic, ESM also requires you to make a decision before it's used. The user "will remember who or what they have memorized in future encounters...at will" So he decides to memorize something and it's automatically memorized as a free action ("at will"). So with ESM, with a free action, I can memorize everything I'm looking at, hearing, smelling, etc. when I first met Maria Mercuria. Later, I can remember the faces of everyone in the crowd, the faces of everyone who was across the street and in the windows in the buildings I'm facing. Furthermore, I can remember exactly what everyone said and when they said it, what everyone smelled like, etc. with no roll at all. With 3DM I can do the same thing but it takes a Complex action, only covers a <Magic>*<Magic> cube, I need to make a roll to recall it, it only covers sight, and I can only remember <Magic> number of spaces. Why are these the same price? It seems like ESM beats the crap out of 3DM. |
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Jul 7 2007, 10:45 PM
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#35
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Especially if you look at the EM quality...
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Jul 7 2007, 10:46 PM
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#36
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 |
The best way I can think of it is that ESM is like photographic memory. If you noticed it, you know it. You get told someones comm number, you'll always know it.
3DM is like tivo. You spend your action and record the scene. You can then go back through it. It makes me think a lot like in the movie Blade Runner, when he's analyzing the pictures he'd taken. Thats sort of like a tech example of 3DM. Example: A dinner meeting. Adept with ESM and a different one with 3DM attend. When everyone sits down and starts eating, the J pulls out a folder, and begins leafing through it. The 3DM adept memorizes the scene when the J first opens the folder. Now, they both go home. The ESM adept can perfectly recall everything that was said, how the food tasted, their waiters name, and how the J's bodyguard smelled. The 3DM adept (can after succeeded on his test) go revisit the scene when he memorized it. And see what the first page on the J's folder showed. He can also check what color the J's eyes are, take a peek at the bodyguards face and notice he has cybereyes, or that underneath the table was a breifcase he didn't notice before. I guess the way I see 3DM working, is like a museum display. You spend your action and memorize, and then that scene is frozen for you. You can walk around, and look at everything, as if it was a display in a museum. But you can't touch anything. So, you can walk around, check under the table (even if you never looked there), look up the J's nose, check that your buddies shoes are tied, and look up that waitress' skirt, as long as its all doable without moving of where anything is. |
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Jul 7 2007, 10:53 PM
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#37
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Nope, only the perspective you had back then.
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Jul 7 2007, 11:46 PM
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#38
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 530 Joined: 11-June 05 Member No.: 7,441 |
I would submit the following:
1. ESM allows you to remember what you perceived. 2. 3DM allows you to re-experience those things that your senses picked up. The difference lies in the fact that what you sense is often not what you perceive. I think the easiest example to illustrate would be the basic invisibility spell. It specifically says it affects your mind, not your senses. I interpret that as meaning your eyes (hence, sense) register the sight, but the spell muddles with your head and tricks you into failing to perceive the invisible subject. No matter how hard the ESM tries, the invisible person is going to be forever invisible. But the 3DM person who goes back and reviews the scene? The invisibility spell is probably not muddling with his mind anymore, is it? Or let's say you're trying to see that license plate number from really far away. You couldn't quite make it out the first time. ESM, you're screwed. But 3DM? Walk up to it and take a closer look. (... and yeah, I know because of the magic distance limitation, it doesn't quite work that way, but maybe you can think of similar situations...) |
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Jul 7 2007, 11:55 PM
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#39
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
That would be a great explanation - but the Memory rules disagree.
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Jul 8 2007, 12:02 AM
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#40
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
moreover, how do you define that in game terms?
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Jul 8 2007, 12:16 AM
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#41
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 433 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Somewhere in Iraq Member No.: 1,789 |
Apparently my memory failed me. I had a spat of edition crossover. I messed that up. Whoops. :notworthy:
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Jul 8 2007, 12:36 AM
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#42
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 530 Joined: 11-June 05 Member No.: 7,441 |
Probably with great difficulty. The trick, to me, is the part where TDM says, "exploring it as if he was walking through the location for the first time." With ESM, it's mere recall of what you sensed. Your experience doesn't change at all. With TDM it's actually experiencing the scene you memorized again. While you can't change what you sensed, you can change your perspective. (... and contrary to what Rotbart says, exploring a scene as if you were walking through it for the first time necessitates being able to change your perspective... although I might agree that you wouldn't be able to change to a perspective you didn't experience the first time.) I think the invisibility thing is the clearest example I can give -- with ESM, your memory is screwed up by the spell messing with it. But with TDM, you're experiencing the scene again, but this time the spell isn't messing with your head. (clearly, this doesn't apply to a physical invisibility spell...) Or what if someone was using stealth and beat you on the perception roll? With ESM, you didn't perceive them, so maybe they're just not there. With TDM, maybe you get a re-roll. It would have to be very case by case, which is unfortunate. |
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Jul 8 2007, 12:50 AM
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#43
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
yeah, but what are the chances of that happening? using 3DM instead of ESM is like shooting people with a .22 because the bullet might richochet around inside their skull or ribcage and do massive damage. sure, that might happen. you might memorize a scene just as the invisible/stealthed antagonist happens to be stealthing past you (i'm not 100% on that invisible thing, but i'll let it slide for the moment because it's kinda tangential). but are the chances of you catching something like that high enough to make 3DM more valuable than ESM?
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Jul 8 2007, 12:56 AM
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#44
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 530 Joined: 11-June 05 Member No.: 7,441 |
Hmm, also, here's a thought:
What about the time-frame implications of free action versus complex action? Hell if I know what this means mechanically, but... Let's say a free action is instantaneous. Let's say a complex action lasts three seconds. (yes, I know that's not exactly how it works, but let's just say it is for a second). With a ESM's free action, you memorize everything as of that instant. But with 3DM's complex action, what exactly are you memorizing? The scene at the start of the time frame? The scene at the end of the time frame? Or the scene over the time frame? |
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Jul 8 2007, 12:58 AM
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#45
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 530 Joined: 11-June 05 Member No.: 7,441 |
Admittedly low. Of course, the chances of my car flipping over and my being trapped in the car aren't all that high, but I still have an emergency hammer with a razor for cutting the seatbelt in my car. :D I would suggest that for the average 'runner who's a combat junkie, the time saved by ESM makes it superior. But for someone specializing in investigation and perception? Maybe 3DM is better. |
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Jul 8 2007, 01:06 AM
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#46
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 530 Joined: 11-June 05 Member No.: 7,441 |
I'm also not 100% on the invisible thing.
The problem, really, is that you know that they're not really supposed to provide the same benefits, or there'd only be one power. But because of unclear wording, you're left scratching your head as to the difference. So what I'm doing is focusing on the only mechanical difference I can see: "exploring it as if he was walking through the location for the first time." What are the implications of experiencing a scene for the first time as compared to remembering a scene previously experienced? The one that immediately came to mind is, well, what if something was messing with your head the first time you experienced it, but it ain't anymore? Hence the invisibility thing. |
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Jul 8 2007, 01:44 AM
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#47
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,246 Joined: 8-June 07 Member No.: 11,869 |
If this line was trimmed, everything would make sense:
If you erased the phrase I bolded, the power would then give you the ability to see the briefcase under the table, see inside the open drawer you didn't look in before, see someone hiding a gun behind their back, see the guy hiding under the desk, etc. I would erase this line too:
I mean really, even when combined with Eidetic Sense Memory and Multitasking, could I really take over the world I memorized a million scenes? With those two tweaks, Three Dimensional Memory might actually be worth the .5 PP if I combined it with ESM and Multitasking. |
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Jul 8 2007, 06:13 AM
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#48
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 |
Why's that? Does it say "only from your perspective you had."? No. Its magic. Its not any worst than a mage using clairvoyance/clairaudiance at the time the adept was memorizing. |
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Jul 8 2007, 07:05 AM
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#49
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,677 Joined: 5-June 03 Member No.: 4,689 |
Thanks, Tarantula. Now let's see if I can remember it. Much of what I read here is suggesting to me that ESM, like EM, is being ruled far too powerful. Memory is not comprehension. (Call it the distinction between seeing and knowing what to look for.) However, many of the explanations here deal with these as one and the same. Revisiting allows new perception -- even to the point of allowing new perception rolls -- because you are looking at it from an entirely new inner perspective -- new experience, new knowledge, new context. Memory alone never does. If we are sticking strictly to the letter of the Rule, then the parallel Which Shall Not Be Mentioned does hold true: for the two adept powers are written differently and have entirely different mechanics, and what constitutes the key difference or lack of difference in comparing any paired rules abstraction lies entirely in the eye of the perceiver. Where no difference is seen between memory and comprehension, between having seen and having known what to look for, no difference can possibly be seen between ESM and EDM. But metaphor has been disallowed (and may no longer have a place in acceptable discussion), and perspective is suspect. No wonder that section of the SATs was cut out entirely. |
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Jul 8 2007, 10:21 AM
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#50
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Yes it does. |
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