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Buster
I can't tell the difference between the Eidetic Sense Memory and Three-Dimensional Memory adept powers. ESM says you remember everything from all your senses exactly, if you can see it from your vantage point. 3DM says you remember everything from all your senses exactly, but only if you can see it from your vantage point. Aren't both of those powers exactly the same?

What are some creative uses for each (both) of these powers?

Here's the compiled list of uses (I'll update it after each post):
  • If you're a mystic adept with the Flexible Signature metamagic power you can have endless fun framing your enemies.
  • You can have the longest and most complicated password ever!
  • Remember the exact air-speed velocity of an unladen European swallow.
  • Annoy your friends with endless quotes from your favorite movies.
  • Disguise yourself as someone with one look and mimic someone after hearing them once (with Con and appropriate technology or magic).
  • Copy blueprints, schematics, and documents with just one look (and Artisan skill) without electronic recordings.
bibliophile20
Memorize wanted posters, and then start wandering around the city, looking at people's faces.

No modifiers for working from memory.

Combine with Artisan (drawing) and get them into a secured area where even cybereyes aren't allowed and get just one good look at the schematics...
odinson
QUOTE (Buster)
Here's the compiled list of uses (I'll update it after each post):
  • If you're a mystic adept with the Flexible Signature metamagic power you can have endless fun framing your enemies.
  • You can have the longest and most complicated password ever!
  • Remember the exact air-speed velocity of an unladen European swallow.
  • Annoy your friends with endless quotes from your favorite movies.

Combine it with voice control, facial sculpt and con (impersonation) and you can reenact the movies, playing every part.
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (Buster)
Aren't both of those powers exactly the same?

No, 3D Memory is limited... sarcastic.gif

Honestly, I don't understand why they dragged that disconnect from SotA64 to Street Magic.
Aaron
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig)
Honestly, I don't understand why they dragged that disconnect from SotA64 to Street Magic.

Sense of nostalgia?
mfb
QUOTE (Aaron)
Sense of nostalgia?

how many PP is that?
laughingowl
To me the big difference.


EDS:
'The adept can recall
these sensory impressions at will, and will remember who or what they have memorized in future encounters."


EDS requires them to have noticed / memorized something. If you want to remember a password, and schematic, etc. Then EDS allows you to study a particular thing and you will never forget it. However, if you break into city hall, find and study the blue prints to Evil Villians Lair #1, and Evil Villans Lair #2 was right next to it, then with EDS you DONT know lair #2 unless you specifcally study it.


3d Memory:
'An adept with Three-Dimensional Memory can use a Complex Action to memorize an area he has viewed firsthand in ultra-clear detail. At a later time, the character may
make a Magic + Perception Test to call up the ‚Äústored‚Ä? memory and walk through the ‚Äúscene,‚Ä? exploring it as if he was walking through the location for the first time. The adept may not interact or disturb anything in the recalled scene, he may only review things he actually saw or sensed, even if only incidentally at the time. For instance, the adept cannot review the contents of a drawer unless it was open when the adept memorized the scene.'

Here the adept memorize a 'scene' anything and everything his sense could pick up are included, including things he possibly didnt' study / memorize.

In the above example if you had pulled the plans out and then used 3d memory to study the scene.. you WOULD be able to recall the plans to Lair #2 (presuming there were visible at the time of the study).

EDS: Require you to not spefically I study X. (or otherwise notice something) and keeps you from forgetting. Basically think a Simsen recording of your brain.

3d Memory, teaches you to 'study' everything in an area.


EDS: You go and meet Maria Mecurial and make a passing comment about her perfume. You will never forget what her perfume was. Though unless you 'noted' the colonge her date was wearing you are SOL. (note no 'test' required. If you notice it you 'know' it).

3d Memory: By default in the above you get nothing (didnt take the complex action to record it). However if you say Dang this is going to be the highlight of my life and stop and focus on the scene. Now ANYTHING you coudl have detected at the moment of the complex action to record it you can go back and get.

Maria's perfume ... Maigc+Peception and you recall it.
Her Date's cologne ... Magic + Perception and you recall it.
Think there was a stalker. Picking out and isolating the face of every person in that crowd ... Magic + Perception (minus visiblity modifiers on some) and you can ID every single person at that seen. (where as with EDS: you would have had to study each persons face).
Talia Invierno
As a real-life thing, I very much don't have eidetic sense memory -- wish I did -- but I do have something close to 3D memory as the writers described it, if not in as great detail. If I'm trying to remember where something is, I "walk" mentally through the environment. Even if I'm remembering a conversation, I tend to remember it by where I was when a particular thing was said. For whatever reason, I'm not visually oriented at all -- but I'm extremely geographically grounded.
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (laughingowl)
EDS requires them to have noticed / memorized something. If you want to remember a password, and schematic, etc. Then EDS allows you to study a particular thing and you will never forget it. However, if you break into city hall, find and study the blue prints to Evil Villians Lair #1, and Evil Villans Lair #2 was right next to it, then with EDS you DONT know lair #2 unless you specifcally study it.

There are rules for memory tests, that include such side-information.
Talia Invierno
You can't access a memory test if you didn't memory-process the stimulus to begin with: into short-term memory and then into long-term. Rules-wise, if the players didn't look to spot something in an environment initially, they won't have mentally processed what they'd seen to memorise it. Your senses filtre out far more than they retain, and thus the sensed thing cannot enter memory. (Call it the "hiding in plain sight" syndrome.)

But with 3D memory, you're mentally re-entering the environment, literally experiencing the sensory input for a second time -- and this time you'll be filtring differently.

Edit: hmm, not unlike the hypnotic trance which tries to retrieve memories by "placing" you into a previous part of your life.
Rotbart van Dainig
In fact, they do... it just a high threshold (3 or 4...). (Lowered by 1 for having eidetic memory quality)
Talia Invierno
Sorry -- they do what?
laughingowl
Rotbart:

Correct Memory (Logic+Will) provides a method to see if you can recall something, however, this has nothing to do with EDS. (well perhaps only slightly).

EDS does not require a test.

QUOTE
The adept can recall these sensory impressions at will, and will remember who or what they have memorized in future encounters.


For EDS to work you must have memorized something. If you want to get persnickity you could say to use EDS you need to:

QUOTE
character may also attempt to memorize something in advance. In this case, make a similar Logic + Willpower Test to determine how well the character retains the information. Memorizing long or drawn-out information may have a higher threshold. Each net hit from this test adds an extra die to any memory tests made to recall this information later on.


And with EDS you just dont get the extra dice, how well you did on the memorization test you always know it.


The writting for the two are inherently different.

EDS: If you knew it once, you know it for ever.

3d Memory: Make detailed recording of 'a scene' with a complex action. Basically once recorded, you can relive that scene forever as many times as you want. While you can't change it. you have a perfect recording of that scene. Things you never noticed the first time, can be found ... IF you could have noticed them at the time of the recording.
mfb
the problem is that while there are differences, they are very subtle, and poorly represented in the game mechanics. in any situation where memory is involved, both powers could conceivably invoked.
Talia Invierno
But the differences aren't subtle at all -- until they're rules-abstracted. You might as well say that the difference between a knife and an extendable baton is subtle, because there is no game mechanic difference between them.
mfb
there are huge differences. they use different specializations, they deal different types of damage, they do different amounts of damage, one has reach, they interact with armor differently, and so on. and while overlap is okay in of gear, it's less okay in magic and especially in adept powers, because adepts get so few powers.
laughingowl
To me they arent subtely different. They are different, even rules wise.

EDS: If you memorized something you recall it at will. No roll, no test, you remember it.

The only question would be 'did you memorize it.' No test not necessarily even a action (probaly count it is a free action). If there is any in game indication you would have memorized it. (retold the password, used it once, etc), then you know it dont ever have to worrry about forgetting it.

The point is it has to have made the process of sensory perceptor, into brain's short term memory, and then flagged for long term archival.


Know it COULD work with the rules for a memory test. If you didnt note something, but semi-noted it. Hey somebody pushed us out of the way going into that stuffer shack and now my comlink is gone. What did that guy look like. Well you certainly hadnt 'memorized' at the scene. however, the memory rules allow you a chance to recall it. IF you do recall it then it clearly is in long term and from there on out EDS allows you to recall it at will (no test needed). (the 'memory test' is to see if you actually noted the details... NOT if you remember the details since with EDS you DO remember).


Now 3d Memory is different.

In the case with the pickpocket above it wouldnt help one iota. Since you didnt use a complex action to 'record the scene'.

However if we re-write it slightly to:

As you are standing in the crowds to see Maria Mecurial, just as Maria Steps out of the car. (I uses 3d memory and each turn record her walk to where she goes out of sight).

Later as you and your team are back home, you hear Bob bitching that somebody nipped his comlink while you were all gawking Maria.

Here the EDS Adept could TRY to recall anybody near Bob Though this is likely going to be a threshold 3 or 4, and likely a die pool penalty for visibilty modifers. IF he manges to recall a glimpse he will know it for ever though.

However the advantage goes to the 3d Memory adept here. Here a simple Magic+Perception allows him to recall the scene. Even things he didnt conciously note (as long as he could have actually noted them). Here the Adept can study and re-study the scene until he gets the best he could on identifying who was near Bob. While he couldnt 'push' the hat out of the way, he could study the scene (make a perception roll) to see who pick pocketed bob, as many times as he wants until he gets the most details. (to me an extended perception test, with a cap eual to what the meximum he would have had during the 'recording') (I.E. he couldnt 'see' anything he couldnt have possibly percieved at the time of the recording, but exactly everything he COULD have percieved would be there. It might take him a while to walk through the scene and get all the detail, but it is there).


Now the 'game' problem with both of these powers is technically you would need to record note: everything ever memorized! (for EDS) and slightly less troublesome but also for 3d Memory (and when since time is important on 3d Memory).

Now it really gets problematic if you combine the two... Especially since logic (imo) if not game rules directly would then make the 'time' penalty on 3d Memory be irrelevant, since EDS would allow a perfect recall of the recorded scene.

3d Memory and EDS combined equal the perfect 'witness', if they bother to 'record' a scene, any detail at all in that scene is recorded for ever in their mind.
mfb
all that basically means is that ESM is more useful that 3dM. with ESM, you remember stuff. with 3dM, you remember stuff if you spent a complex action to remember it.
Buster
With that explanation doesn't 3DM give you everything that ESM gives you but in faster time? If ESM is "I memorize this page I'm looking at" and 3DM is "I memorize everything in the room all at once", you would never take ESM and would always take 3DM.

If ESM is "I memorize what I'm looking at, at will", then ESM would always be better than 3DM because ESM let's you memorize everything you can see in a scene but takes a free action instead of a complex action.
Talia Invierno
QUOTE (mfb)
there are huge differences. they use different specializations, they deal different types of damage, they do different amounts of damage, one has reach, they interact with armor differently, and so on. and while overlap is okay in of gear, it's less okay in magic and especially in adept powers, because adepts get so few powers.

Actually, did you check the rules for the two specific examples I chose before you posted that? Because there was a reason I chose them.
mfb
at the time, no. now, with the rulebook in front of me: different reach, different conceal ratings, different skills. even if there were no differences at all, my point would still stand. overlaps in gear are fine--gear is a dime a dozen, largely a matter of personal preference. adept powers are big, character-defining things. overlap there is a) space that could be spent on other adept powers, and b) cheapening the choices of adepts who take one or the other--or, worst of all, both.
Talia Invierno
QUOTE (Talia Invierno)
But the differences aren't subtle at all -- until they're rules-abstracted. You might as well say that the difference between a knife and an extendable baton is subtle, because there is no game mechanic difference between them.

QUOTE (mfb)
there are huge differences. they use different specializations, they deal different types of damage, they do different amounts of damage, one has reach, they interact with armor differently, and so on.
...
different reach, different conceal ratings, different skills. even if there were no differences at all, my point would still stand.

Exactly, there are huge differences -- but they don't show up as huge differences to someone who isn't familiar with them. With armed combat you automatically focus on the differences only, and filtre out without even thinking about it all the similarities that someone not familiar with the weapons would tend to see first: same damage, same linked attribute, same interaction with armour, the only combat difference a +/-1d due to Reach.

That's exactly the way to think about ESM and 3DM: some surface similarities for someone not familiar with the powers, but the way they work is entirely different.

(Incidentally, I don't know where you are getting the huge difference in conceal ratings from, unless you are using stun baton instead of extendable baton. They are very different sizes, and the second isn't listed as a concealability example in SR4.)
QUOTE (mfb)
overlaps in gear are fine--gear is a dime a dozen, largely a matter of personal preference. adept powers are big, character-defining things.

Just like one's major skills (not gear) should be -- and the extendable baton and knife use entirely different skills, even though the abstracted surface gloss looks incredibly similar.

Try it from a different direction:

ESM allows complete and utter recall, no roll required, of what was originally sensed and processed, in a manner similar to the quality Photographic Memory. (In fact, the comparison is specified in the description.)

For the metaphor, think of this as having utterly memorised your favourite television show.

3DM allows deliberate ultra-clear memorisation in such a way that the PC can actually revisit the memory scene later, "exploring it as if he was [sic] walking through it for the first time". That revisiting is the key point, for it may allow noticing of details which completely escaped the PC the first time -- and which ESM can't pick up, because it just focuses on memory alone and not the ability to see anew for the first time. That's also why it, unlike ESM, requires a roll (MG + Perception).

For the metaphor, think of this as seeing a familiar episode of your favourite television show -- but seeing it for the first time in high definition.
Rotbart van Dainig
In both cases, the adept is limited to what he could possibly have seen.

The only difference is what you roll to find out... and perhaps the ability of an adept to navigate a room in full darkness if he has seen it before.
Talia Invierno
QUOTE
In both cases, the adept is limited to what he could possibly have seen.

Or heard, or smelt ...

And given that one requires a roll and the other does not, one has limited area and the other does not, and one requires a Complex Action to deliberately memorise and the other does not: I thought you of all people would see a severe difference in the powers at least in those, Rotbart van Dainig.
Rotbart van Dainig
That was concerning the 'detail' angle you were so fond of.
Eidetic Memory has no drawback concerning details, so they are on part on that account.

Of course TDM is utterly useless and superseeded be EM, as TDM really only offers visual memory and has more limitations.
Talia Invierno
QUOTE
That was concerning the 'detail' angle you were so fond of.
Eidetic Memory has no drawback concerning details, so they are on part on that account.

Of course TDM is utterly useless and superseeded be EM, as TDM really only offers visual memory and has more limitations.

If a writer is reading this: ruling, please? Are these categories closed to blind PCs?
mfb
QUOTE (Talia Invierno)
That's exactly the way to think about ESM and 3DM: some surface similarities for someone not familiar with the powers, but the way they work is entirely different.

they do the same thing. the only major difference is that with one, you have to know to use it ahead of time. anything you could do with 3DM, you could do with ESM. anything you could do with ESM, you could do with 3DM as long as you had the foresight/luck to memorize the correct area. there are not enough rules-based differences between their application; one is simply better than the other. sure, 3DM lets you go back to a scene and notice things you didn't notice before--but how do you determine what you did and did not notice, with ESM? if you happen to stand around in a room with an open book on the table, how does the GM determine later whether or not you happened to glance at the book and see what was written in it?

re: concealability, there's a note in the description of the extendable baton.
WhiskeyMac
Actually, the extendable baton and the knife have a very, very distinct detail that anyone just picking up the BBB would notice: the damage. The extendable baton does stun while the knife does physical. That is the defining difference between the two. The rest can be misconstrued but not the damage.
Rotbart van Dainig
In SR4, hard blunt weapons deal physical damage.
Beating someone with a baseball bat will hurt and eventually kill him.
Tarantula
QUOTE (WhiskeyMac @ Jul 7 2007, 01:06 PM)
Actually, the extendable baton and the knife have a very, very distinct detail that anyone just picking up the BBB would notice: the damage. The extendable baton does stun while the knife does physical. That is the defining difference between the two. The rest can be misconstrued but not the damage.

You're right, anyone picking up the BBB would notice, that they both do physical. Obviously you didn't pick it up to make this post.

Difference between the two include, skill used for combat, skill used for parrying, cost, reach, and concealability when the baton is extended.
Talia Invierno
So -- we seem to be agreed that what those two weapons do is much the same (damage, armour penetration), and that the key differences is how they do it (cost, reach, which skill)?

Btw -- it took me a year on Dumpshock before I finally learned what BBB stood for (Big Black/Blue Book). It's a damn hard thing to search for, not least since the search function requires at least four characters. What does RAW stand for?
Tarantula
Rules As Written
mfb
cost, reach, and skill are strongly-defined differences. the differences between 3DM and ESM are not strongly defined. since they do the same thing, that pretty much means they overlap. the only reason you'd take one over the other is the fact that 3DM has to be used ahead of time, and ESM can be used anytime.
Buster
Anyone who mentions batons or knives again in this thread will first be beaten then stabbed. biggrin.gif

Back to the topic, ESM also requires you to make a decision before it's used. The user "will remember who or what they have memorized in future encounters...at will" So he decides to memorize something and it's automatically memorized as a free action ("at will").

So with ESM, with a free action, I can memorize everything I'm looking at, hearing, smelling, etc. when I first met Maria Mercuria. Later, I can remember the faces of everyone in the crowd, the faces of everyone who was across the street and in the windows in the buildings I'm facing. Furthermore, I can remember exactly what everyone said and when they said it, what everyone smelled like, etc. with no roll at all.

With 3DM I can do the same thing but it takes a Complex action, only covers a <Magic>*<Magic> cube, I need to make a roll to recall it, it only covers sight, and I can only remember <Magic> number of spaces.

Why are these the same price? It seems like ESM beats the crap out of 3DM.
Rotbart van Dainig
Especially if you look at the EM quality...
Tarantula
The best way I can think of it is that ESM is like photographic memory. If you noticed it, you know it. You get told someones comm number, you'll always know it.

3DM is like tivo. You spend your action and record the scene. You can then go back through it. It makes me think a lot like in the movie Blade Runner, when he's analyzing the pictures he'd taken. Thats sort of like a tech example of 3DM.

Example: A dinner meeting. Adept with ESM and a different one with 3DM attend. When everyone sits down and starts eating, the J pulls out a folder, and begins leafing through it. The 3DM adept memorizes the scene when the J first opens the folder.

Now, they both go home. The ESM adept can perfectly recall everything that was said, how the food tasted, their waiters name, and how the J's bodyguard smelled.

The 3DM adept (can after succeeded on his test) go revisit the scene when he memorized it. And see what the first page on the J's folder showed. He can also check what color the J's eyes are, take a peek at the bodyguards face and notice he has cybereyes, or that underneath the table was a breifcase he didn't notice before.


I guess the way I see 3DM working, is like a museum display. You spend your action and memorize, and then that scene is frozen for you. You can walk around, and look at everything, as if it was a display in a museum. But you can't touch anything. So, you can walk around, check under the table (even if you never looked there), look up the J's nose, check that your buddies shoes are tied, and look up that waitress' skirt, as long as its all doable without moving of where anything is.
Rotbart van Dainig
Nope, only the perspective you had back then.
Vaevictis
I would submit the following:

1. ESM allows you to remember what you perceived.
2. 3DM allows you to re-experience those things that your senses picked up.

The difference lies in the fact that what you sense is often not what you perceive. I think the easiest example to illustrate would be the basic invisibility spell. It specifically says it affects your mind, not your senses. I interpret that as meaning your eyes (hence, sense) register the sight, but the spell muddles with your head and tricks you into failing to perceive the invisible subject.

No matter how hard the ESM tries, the invisible person is going to be forever invisible. But the 3DM person who goes back and reviews the scene? The invisibility spell is probably not muddling with his mind anymore, is it?

Or let's say you're trying to see that license plate number from really far away. You couldn't quite make it out the first time. ESM, you're screwed. But 3DM? Walk up to it and take a closer look. (... and yeah, I know because of the magic distance limitation, it doesn't quite work that way, but maybe you can think of similar situations...)
Rotbart van Dainig
That would be a great explanation - but the Memory rules disagree.
mfb
moreover, how do you define that in game terms?
WhiskeyMac
Apparently my memory failed me. I had a spat of edition crossover. I messed that up. Whoops. notworthy.gif
Vaevictis
QUOTE (mfb @ Jul 7 2007, 07:02 PM)
moreover, how do you define that in game terms?

Probably with great difficulty.

The trick, to me, is the part where TDM says, "exploring it as if he was walking through the location for the first time."

With ESM, it's mere recall of what you sensed. Your experience doesn't change at all. With TDM it's actually experiencing the scene you memorized again. While you can't change what you sensed, you can change your perspective. (... and contrary to what Rotbart says, exploring a scene as if you were walking through it for the first time necessitates being able to change your perspective... although I might agree that you wouldn't be able to change to a perspective you didn't experience the first time.)

I think the invisibility thing is the clearest example I can give -- with ESM, your memory is screwed up by the spell messing with it. But with TDM, you're experiencing the scene again, but this time the spell isn't messing with your head. (clearly, this doesn't apply to a physical invisibility spell...)

Or what if someone was using stealth and beat you on the perception roll? With ESM, you didn't perceive them, so maybe they're just not there. With TDM, maybe you get a re-roll.

It would have to be very case by case, which is unfortunate.
mfb
yeah, but what are the chances of that happening? using 3DM instead of ESM is like shooting people with a .22 because the bullet might richochet around inside their skull or ribcage and do massive damage. sure, that might happen. you might memorize a scene just as the invisible/stealthed antagonist happens to be stealthing past you (i'm not 100% on that invisible thing, but i'll let it slide for the moment because it's kinda tangential). but are the chances of you catching something like that high enough to make 3DM more valuable than ESM?
Vaevictis
Hmm, also, here's a thought:

What about the time-frame implications of free action versus complex action? Hell if I know what this means mechanically, but...

Let's say a free action is instantaneous. Let's say a complex action lasts three seconds. (yes, I know that's not exactly how it works, but let's just say it is for a second).

With a ESM's free action, you memorize everything as of that instant. But with 3DM's complex action, what exactly are you memorizing? The scene at the start of the time frame? The scene at the end of the time frame? Or the scene over the time frame?
Vaevictis
QUOTE (mfb @ Jul 7 2007, 07:50 PM)
yeah, but what are the chances of that happening?

Admittedly low.

Of course, the chances of my car flipping over and my being trapped in the car aren't all that high, but I still have an emergency hammer with a razor for cutting the seatbelt in my car. biggrin.gif

I would suggest that for the average 'runner who's a combat junkie, the time saved by ESM makes it superior. But for someone specializing in investigation and perception? Maybe 3DM is better.
Vaevictis
I'm also not 100% on the invisible thing.

The problem, really, is that you know that they're not really supposed to provide the same benefits, or there'd only be one power. But because of unclear wording, you're left scratching your head as to the difference.

So what I'm doing is focusing on the only mechanical difference I can see: "exploring it as if he was walking through the location for the first time."

What are the implications of experiencing a scene for the first time as compared to remembering a scene previously experienced?

The one that immediately came to mind is, well, what if something was messing with your head the first time you experienced it, but it ain't anymore? Hence the invisibility thing.
Buster
If this line was trimmed, everything would make sense:
QUOTE
The adept may not interact or disturb anything in the recalled scene, he may only review things he actually saw or sensed, even if only incidentally at the time.

If you erased the phrase I bolded, the power would then give you the ability to see the briefcase under the table, see inside the open drawer you didn't look in before, see someone hiding a gun behind their back, see the guy hiding under the desk, etc.

I would erase this line too:
QUOTE
An adept may memorize a number of areas equal to his Magic attribute.

I mean really, even when combined with Eidetic Sense Memory and Multitasking, could I really take over the world I memorized a million scenes?

With those two tweaks, Three Dimensional Memory might actually be worth the .5 PP if I combined it with ESM and Multitasking.
Tarantula
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig)
Nope, only the perspective you had back then.

Why's that? Does it say "only from your perspective you had."? No. Its magic. Its not any worst than a mage using clairvoyance/clairaudiance at the time the adept was memorizing.
Talia Invierno
QUOTE (Tarantula)
Rules As Written

Thanks, Tarantula. Now let's see if I can remember it.

Much of what I read here is suggesting to me that ESM, like EM, is being ruled far too powerful. Memory is not comprehension. (Call it the distinction between seeing and knowing what to look for.) However, many of the explanations here deal with these as one and the same. Revisiting allows new perception -- even to the point of allowing new perception rolls -- because you are looking at it from an entirely new inner perspective -- new experience, new knowledge, new context. Memory alone never does.

If we are sticking strictly to the letter of the Rule, then the parallel Which Shall Not Be Mentioned does hold true: for the two adept powers are written differently and have entirely different mechanics, and what constitutes the key difference or lack of difference in comparing any paired rules abstraction lies entirely in the eye of the perceiver. Where no difference is seen between memory and comprehension, between having seen and having known what to look for, no difference can possibly be seen between ESM and EDM.

But metaphor has been disallowed (and may no longer have a place in acceptable discussion), and perspective is suspect. No wonder that section of the SATs was cut out entirely.
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (Tarantula)
Does it say "only from your perspective you had."?

Yes it does.
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