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> Brutal GM'ing, aka, Am I evil, or just Misunderstood?
Narmio
post Jul 8 2007, 02:27 AM
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QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0)
This is why I dislike the internet. It invariably goes the same way. Someone states their position, then generally a few people agree with them. Then someone points out Issue X. Some more people agree. Then the OP gets annoyed at it. Then some people pick sides. Then it goes back and forth eventually culminating in complaining about the process of it all, since the original point has pretty much been left at the way side.

Slight editing required.
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Ravor
post Jul 8 2007, 04:48 AM
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Well personally I fall into the "it's the character's skills that count, not the player's" camp, meaning that I wholehearty agree that the ( Strength 1 ) Sammy got what was coming to him, but I very strongly disagree with the Technomancer example, his character knew what going into full-VR meant, so the player should have been told. Of course, if the player had still said yes then all bets are off. :cyber:

Of course, the usual disclaimer of as long as everyone at the table is enjoying themselves then no "bad-fun" is going on, ect, ect...
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Tarantula
post Jul 8 2007, 06:14 AM
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I still like the fact that he kept the lesson in game, made it slightly annoying, but not problematic for the player. Keeping things in game tends to help keep everyone at the table in game, which helps the feel of the world overall.
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fistandantilus4....
post Jul 8 2007, 06:45 AM
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QUOTE (Narmio)
Slight editing required.

:D
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tisoz
post Jul 8 2007, 07:00 AM
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QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0)
This is why I dislike threads like this. They invariably go the same way. Someone states their position, then generally a few people agree with them. Then someone points out Issue X. Some more people agree. Then the OP gets annoyed at it. Then some people pick sides. Then it goes back and forth eventually culminating in complaining about the process of it all, since the original point has pretty much been left at the way side.

If you post asking for people's opinions, you're going to get them. Nice or not. You can of course defend your position, but really it just comes down to people's take on the game and how they like to play it. This particular one has been relatively civil compared to some others. Don't worry, we'll have this same thread again in a month or two. Just please keep it polite and try to cut back on the snarky comments.

That is why when I see a title like this, then a good number of posts, then Last Post by: fistandantilus3.0, I have to check to see if it got interesting enough to lock. ;)
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Heimdalol
post Jul 8 2007, 07:09 AM
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In all the years I've been gaming the biggest disagreements that have come up at the table were all based on when a player and a GM were understanding a world differently. Both were using their common sense and when there's a disconnect feelings end up getting hurt.

I really don't like GMs that will bruise characters (even if it's just egos.) For saying the wrong thing. I've never walked from a game because of this but only because I game with RL friends.

We have enough fun and jokes at the table , humiliating players (even slightly) when you're not both on the same wavelength is just plain wrong IMO. One of the jobs of the GM is to interpret what the players are saying and weave it into the game world. That takes a little bit of understanding ( "hear what I mean , not what I say")

I'm glad you and your players are all having fun but I think this is one area where a lot of GMs can improve if they are looking for everyone to have even more fun.
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Talia Invierno
post Jul 8 2007, 07:11 AM
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Whenever I see a thread like this, I wonder how many of the diehard opponents and proponents have stable, long-term games of which they are a part. (Wouldn't that make for an interesting discussion, if each person had to precede their post with a statement not only of years of experience playing, but of how long their longest campaign lasted?)

QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig)
That would make you insane, too. :P

I post here, don't I?
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Solomon Greene
post Jul 8 2007, 09:25 AM
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Oh god, please no, Talia. It would devolve into the boards of MMORPGs; "What you say! You're not a max levelled character, your opinion is MEANINGLESS!"
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Talia Invierno
post Jul 8 2007, 11:40 AM
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Which could be an interesting statement, if so many max-levelled MMORPG PCs hadn't been shopped out to eastern Europe or India for professional levelling.

But, as to how things might apply here:

I don't reply to firearms threads, as my experience with firearms is so comparatively minimal as to make any contribution I could make worse than minimal.

Outside SR3 rules questions I don't reply to vehicle pimping threads, as my experience with vehicle engines falls far short of many here: and so I learn far more than I would be capable of adding.

Why shouldn't experience in maintaining a long-term, stable campaign be a valid and even expected self-limiter for posting in a thread critiquing GMing style of a long-term GM? What is that advice worth, otherwise?
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Rotbart van Dain...
post Jul 8 2007, 11:57 AM
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You know the saying 'Yeah, I know the game is rigged - but it's the only game in town.'?

It doesn't really matter how much experience someone claims to have - only if he is able to avoid mistakes.
And if someone is posting a pretty basic GM mistake (the clown railroad) as an example and asks for opinion, it doesn't matter how much experience the person pointing it out has - the fact that it was pointed out means: enough.
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Talia Invierno
post Jul 8 2007, 11:59 AM
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Someone capable of sustaining a long-term, stable campaign is obviously already capable of avoiding the fatal mistakes of GMing.

To opine otherwise smacks of frustrated wish fulfilment.
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Rotbart van Dain...
post Jul 8 2007, 12:03 PM
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QUOTE (Talia Invierno)
Someone capable of sustaining a long-term, stable campaign is obviously already capable of avoiding the fatal mistakes of GMing.

Glad you found out that 'fatal mistake' != 'basic mistake'.

QUOTE (Talia Invierno)
To opine otherwise smacks of frustrated wish fulfilment.

You mean like starting a thread with bragging about oneself smacks of attention-whoring? :P
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Talia Invierno
post Jul 8 2007, 12:06 PM
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You didn't catch the mocking irony of the first post?
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Rotbart van Dain...
post Jul 8 2007, 12:09 PM
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I caught the failed try of irony. It hurt.
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Talia Invierno
post Jul 8 2007, 01:17 PM
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Failed, in this case, may lie in the eye of the beholder :P
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fistandantilus4....
post Jul 8 2007, 04:59 PM
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QUOTE (tisoz)

That is why when I see a title like this, then a good number of posts, then Last Post by: fistandantilus3.0, I have to check to see if it got interesting enough to lock. ;)

Locked threads are obvious from the forum. You need to look for the gold print. That means it's getting hot in here, and there's still some room to join the mess! :D
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fistandantilus4....
post Jul 8 2007, 05:01 PM
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Which reminds me ...

QUOTE (Rotbart)
You mean like starting a thread with bragging about oneself smacks of attention-whoring?


Stop trolling
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Nerf'd
post Jul 8 2007, 06:15 PM
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Fairly early on I realized that if I stayed involved, it was going to turn into a pissing match - so I stepped back and just watched. I realize that everyone is not going to agree with my style, but I thought that the very fact that I still have the vast majority of my players would have counted for something.

Apparently not.

That being said, most of the the posters (with a few glaring exceptions) have been able to give me good feedback as to things I might change. I probably won't pull a trick like the TM rolling down a roof again, but that's a moot point - the player learned from the experience, and went on to play much better. Everyone laughed, everyone understood the lesson, and everyone went on. I never had to remind any of that group about being aware of their surroundings again - which, to me, is really the point.

So, to most of you, thank you for being forthright in your opinions, and forthcoming with your suggestions. I have and will take them into account.

To those who un-named folks who got all hot under the collar about the rules - chill out. Funny thing about being GM, I seem to remember being told that I'm the ultimate arbiter of the rules, as long I'm not outright breaking them and making my players unhappy.

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Rotbart van Dain...
post Jul 8 2007, 06:42 PM
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As this seems to be a general misunderstanding elaborated further in another thread:
QUOTE (Nerf'd)
I realize that everyone is not going to agree with my style, but I thought that the very fact that I still have the vast majority of my players would have counted for something.

Look, this point is trivial. Neither can we verify that fact, nor does it matter when asking for opinions.
In fact, if everyone would agree with you, it would be trivial, too - as there is no new information.

QUOTE (Nerf'd)
Funny thing about being GM, I seem to remember being told that I'm the ultimate arbiter of the rules, as long I'm not outright breaking them and making my players unhappy.

Well, if you are 'the ultimate arbiter of the rules', you can't really break them...
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tweak
post Jul 8 2007, 06:48 PM
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The reason why I play is to have a good time. If the GM doesn't get that concept, then I'm not interested in playing.

Now, the Shadowrun book does provide for different types of play. But the players have to agree that they will have a good time playing a detailed game like the OP runs.
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tisoz
post Jul 8 2007, 07:37 PM
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I waited a while to see what the majority was going to decide before I ventured an opinion...

Not really. I just didn't care that much and I didn't have much to contribute until now.

From your intial post, I was leaning toward you were mistaken and not really a brutal GM but a jerk. But then when some people offered some criticism and you followed up with a post or so giving further details, especially the rooftop explanation, I thought you were being pretty fair.

It works that way a lot around here. Someone posts the bare parts of the story. They get smacked around. More of the story gets revealed. The new details put an entirely different slant on the story.

That's why I was so patient before offering an opinion.
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starkebn
post Jul 8 2007, 11:28 PM
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QUOTE (Nerf'd)
Hell, I even asked the TM :

"So you're just going to go full VR?"

"Yes"

"Standing up"

"Yes"


Actions have consequences.  I don't demand that people state that they are eating, or putting on clothes - but if an action is directly related to what they are doing I do want them to think it through.

I'm a lot late to the conversation, but in a case like this I would prefer a GM I was playing with to have the conversation like this:

"So you're just going to go full VR?"

"Yes"

"If you do it standing up you'll fall off when you go limp"

"...umm"

This way I'm reminded of what the consequences might be. In your case I would guess the player wasn't fully aware they would go limp during full VR. You thought you asked whether he wanted to do something stupid but really you just asked a cryptic question that people can miss the meaning of.
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Wounded Ronin
post Jul 8 2007, 11:38 PM
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QUOTE (Nerf'd)
Fairly early on I realized that if I stayed involved, it was going to turn into a pissing match - so I stepped back and just watched. I realize that everyone is not going to agree with my style, but I thought that the very fact that I still have the vast majority of my players would have counted for something.

Apparently not.

That being said, most of the the posters (with a few glaring exceptions) have been able to give me good feedback as to things I might change.

To those who un-named folks who got all hot under the collar about the rules - chill out. Funny thing about being GM, I seem to remember being told that I'm the ultimate arbiter of the rules, as long I'm not outright breaking them and making my players unhappy.

This passive-aggressive post, and the anti "roll playing" one before it, makes me think that you didn't really want people to answer your question about whether or not you're a brutal GM. It also implies that you see many of your critics as somehow unworthy to comment on you, either because they are "roll players" or because your players seem to be happy and therefore any critiques are actually irrelevant.

If that's the way you feel, why did you make a thread on a discussion board in the first place?
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eidolon
post Jul 9 2007, 12:32 AM
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Okay. That's enough trolling and baiting for one thread. If you can manage to make this constructive in any way in the next few posts, it stays open. Otherwise, it's getting closed.
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Shinobi Killfist
post Jul 9 2007, 04:08 AM
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QUOTE (starkebn)
QUOTE (Nerf'd)
Hell, I even asked the TM :

"So you're just going to go full VR?"

"Yes"

"Standing up"

"Yes"


Actions have consequences.  I don't demand that people state that they are eating, or putting on clothes - but if an action is directly related to what they are doing I do want them to think it through.

I'm a lot late to the conversation, but in a case like this I would prefer a GM I was playing with to have the conversation like this:

"So you're just going to go full VR?"

"Yes"

"If you do it standing up you'll fall off when you go limp"

"...umm"

This way I'm reminded of what the consequences might be. In your case I would guess the player wasn't fully aware they would go limp during full VR. You thought you asked whether he wanted to do something stupid but really you just asked a cryptic question that people can miss the meaning of.

yeah thats what I generally prefer for the lets call them obvious oversights or lack of knowledge problems. Since no one was hurt it was just a sort of in game lesson I don't think it was a bad method for handling the problem though. Though honestly I probably would of just assumed the person sat down. If he hadn't asked for clarifcation about doing it standing and I was the TM, lets just say you'd probably get at the very least an eye roll.
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