 Edge, SR4 luck v. SR3 experience |
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 Jul 15 2007, 04:46 AM
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#226
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Immortal Elf  Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670  |
we know we can houserule it, man. the fact that it's broken enough that it needs to be houseruled is Cain's point. but houserules are never simple, since they require each and every GM to decide for themselves whether or not to use it. |
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Jul 15 2007, 04:48 AM
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#227
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Target Group: Members Posts: 27 Joined: 17-August 06 Member No.: 9,151 |
That's not a house rule. That's RAW.
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Jul 15 2007, 04:50 AM
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#228
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
sigh. fine. we know that the GM can use his discretion on it, man. the fact that it's broken enough that the GM has to use his discretion is Cain's point. but using GM discretion is never simple, since it requires each and every GM to decide for themselves whether or not to use it.
better? |
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Jul 15 2007, 05:06 AM
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#229
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
Really, jeez Drake! What's wrong with you? Expecting GMs to think! You should be ashamed of yourself.
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Jul 15 2007, 05:10 AM
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#230
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
that's not at all what i--or he--said. i said that GM discretion is not a simple issue, and i said that everyone is aware that GMs can use their discretion. saying "GMs should just not allow X" is not telling GMs to think for themselves, it is telling GMs to not allow X.
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Jul 15 2007, 05:59 AM
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#231
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 114 Joined: 2-July 07 Member No.: 12,127 |
I guess my point would be that the raw does cover for the possibility of overpowered called shots combined with longshot rule with the GM discretion line.
If a GM wanted to have a spot of fun with the whole lucky shot through a window of an armored car, straight into unprotected face region, it's actually not that bad. Hell, an edge 3 or 4 guy could just as easily make that shot if the driver is unaware, it hardly requires edge 8 to work (just less likely) However, there does lie the option to lay some GM smackdown without being too overtly unfair (Having some RAW text supporting your actions really cuts down on the whining of the rules lawyers) |
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Jul 15 2007, 09:16 AM
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#232
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
the RAW basically says "figure it out yourself". part of the point of this discussion is helping GMs figure it out.
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Jul 15 2007, 11:37 AM
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#233
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
So there are two conclusions:
First, since penalties are limited, characters with a dicepool greater than their total sum are broken. Second, since Longshot Tests approach a positive constant, they are broken. Remove broken. The End. |
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Jul 15 2007, 03:22 PM
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#234
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
Corrected. |
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Jul 15 2007, 03:33 PM
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#235
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
It's called a quote because one does not change the content. |
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Jul 15 2007, 03:38 PM
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#236
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
What misquote? Canon is never wrong. |
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Jul 15 2007, 03:41 PM
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#237
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Whatever.
True - it tells you to change every rule you don't like. So every rule is canon. |
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Jul 15 2007, 03:42 PM
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#238
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,417 Joined: 31-December 06 Member No.: 10,502 |
I was wondering when toturi would show up. This whole "everybody agreeing" thing with the crappy wording of the longshot rule was freaking me out.
I've been away a little bit but the thing in all the edge stuff that actually does bug me is the stepping in for the specialist bit. Now if you curtail longshot in any way, via houserule or liberal application of dropbears to the offender, it isn't that the lucky char is better than the specialist. It's simply that if a skill only comes up rarely the lucky char can perform as well as the specialist using their edge, as the specialist can without it. For example lets say someone spends 55CP on maxing edge and another spends 60 on buying, say, the influence groub up to 4 and charisma up to the soft max. If all the face does in a mission is one negotiation roll with the J and a fast talk on a guard the lucky char could simply step in for them. They have two more edge, so there are two uses. Now I suppose that's a bad example, becuase a properly played face would be using their skills for all sorts of stuff. Probably a dozen or two rolls a mission. So at that point lucky is left in the dust. But what about other less commonly used skills? Eh maybe it isn't a problem. The lucky is still rolling with the risk of a critical glitch they can't cancel, and they can't use edge again to up a bad roll, nor to further enhance it. |
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Jul 15 2007, 03:53 PM
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#239
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
Thank you.
I was in a hospital with a fever that could cook an egg. But never fear, Canon is here to save the day!
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Jul 15 2007, 04:13 PM
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#240
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Glad to see you will be better. |
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Jul 15 2007, 05:34 PM
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#241
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 |
How are characters that are able to reduce penalties and still be effective broken? Longshot tests aren't better than a specialist at their specialty, which I showed with Cain's motorboat & HMG example. |
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Jul 15 2007, 06:29 PM
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#242
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Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
Which you showed by whinging and changing the example until it showed what you wanted. Not with logic and common sense and basic intelligence. (What is the opposite of basic intelligence, anyway?). Trying to wriggle around the definition of "modified" is also telling. The point here being, I could come up with examples from here til next year, and the conclusion would be the same. Longshot tests are broken, and Edge can outshine a specialist a little too often. And that's not even counting sime of the other uses for Edge, such as the fact it resolves Initaitve ties, allowing Mr. Lucky to be just a little bit faster. Or the fact that Mr. Lucky could survive 9 successive direct hits by THOR shots. And we won't get into the low-edge paradox, where they can get critical successes for cheap. |
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Jul 15 2007, 06:38 PM
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#243
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Think about why Bloodzilla flying through space is broken. ;) |
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Jul 15 2007, 07:45 PM
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#244
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 114 Joined: 2-July 07 Member No.: 12,127 |
The thing is, the lucky guy can only outshine the specialist on an impossible shot if he uses longshot.
That thematically makes sense since a shot of that difficulty might just require more luck than skill to make. If by one too many times, you mean exactly 8 times before a run is over, then I'll just have to say that I'm not seeing the broken. Maybe the situation just doesn't require a weapons specialist who can consistently take out goon after goon. |
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Jul 15 2007, 11:44 PM
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#245
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
that's not quite what Rotbart said. he said it's broken when characters have enough dice to still be effective even if all the penalties are applied. |
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Jul 16 2007, 12:35 AM
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#246
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
I could be wrong, but if you're getting hit with a THOR shot, let alone 9 of them, your game has a lot bigger problems then Edge.
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Jul 16 2007, 01:03 PM
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#247
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
Acidic intelligence, of course. |
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Jul 17 2007, 02:46 AM
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#248
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,677 Joined: 5-June 03 Member No.: 4,689 |
Explains why confronting the two is such a salty proposition.
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