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> Bailing Out, How To Survive a Plane Crash
Serial_Peacemake...
post Jul 16 2007, 06:27 AM
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Are there any rules for ditching from a flying vehicle? Especially ones that are fairly close to the earth. I know that land based crash tests can be survived, and that in reality people have bailed out from aircraft in real life. However surviving a crash test that starts at a mile up kind of strains belief. Excuse me if I simply missed this one while reading through the section on crash tests and such.
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odinson
post Jul 16 2007, 06:39 AM
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There is falling damage on page 154. But that's not really survivable without burning an edge. I'd also start the damage from when the plane started to fall so a guy couldn't jump out at 10m and only take 5 boxes of damage. Otherwise the crash rules are on page 160-161.

Seems there is no maximum damage from a fall. I guess it would probably make sense to house rule something in. Trolls and orks would also probably take more damage from a fall and elves would take less as they are lighter and smaller.
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Solomon Greene
post Jul 16 2007, 07:41 AM
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I'm sure there will be other posts that explain this better, but fallen bodies reach a terminal velocity in free fall that pretty much caps damage - you can only fall so fast. Weight isn't really an issue at that point.
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Talia Invierno
post Jul 16 2007, 07:59 AM
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QUOTE (odinson)
Trolls and orks would also probably take more damage from a fall and elves would take less as they are lighter and smaller.

Remember Galileo's classic experiment? Earth-standard acceleration = 9.8m/s^2, independent of mass. Air resistance creates terminal velocity, again the same for all, independent of mass (but dependent on such air factors as humidity). Fifty-five metres per second for the average, non-trained human body is a rough approximation, but can vary. For example, reducing surface area results in a higher terminal velocity, a technique commonly used by skydivers. HALO jumps invariably have higher terminal velocities because of the extreme thinness of the air at those altitudes: the initial velocity is so much higher before the lower, thicker air has a real chance to slow. Terminal velocity of meteors and THOR shots goes considerably higher.

The height record for surviving a fall is held by Vesna Vulović, who fell over 10,000 metres: didn't survive unhurt, but did survive to eventually walk again. Nick Alkemade managed to survive a fall of 5,500 metres almost entirely without injury.

Using fifty-five metres per second as terminal, and estimating over a standard combat round (3 seconds) gives 165 metres of fall in a single combat round. Does that give enough of a guideline for damage?
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odinson
post Jul 16 2007, 01:36 PM
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QUOTE (Talia Invierno)
QUOTE (odinson)
Trolls and orks would also probably take more damage from a fall and elves would take less as they are lighter and smaller.

Remember Galileo's classic experiment? Earth-standard acceleration = 9.8m/s^2, independent of mass. Air resistance creates terminal velocity, again the same for all, independent of mass (but dependent on such air factors as humidity). Fifty-five metres per second for the average, non-trained human body is a rough approximation, but can vary. For example, reducing surface area results in a higher terminal velocity, a technique commonly used by skydivers.


Using fifty-five metres per second as terminal, and estimating over a standard combat round (3 seconds) gives 165 metres of fall in a single combat round. Does that give enough of a guideline for damage?

I remember that gravity has the same effect on everything. The reasoning behind a troll or ork taking more damage is that they would have a larger mass to surface ratio would be larger than that for a human. Elves on the other hand would have a smaller mass to surface area ratio.

The books has a rule for terminal velocity. It is 150m acceleration per turn up to 300 meters per second. Damage is also based on height not speed.
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redne
post Jul 16 2007, 01:42 PM
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So, with acceleration of 9.8m/s^2 you would reach your terminal velocity of 55m/s in 5.6 seconds. If falling damage depends on your impact velocity, you can't really get more damage from falling than you would get after a fall of 5.6 seconds.

The bad news is that this would be a fall of about 182 meters, which does 93 boxes of damage. :dead:

This is with RL numbers, the ones in SR4 p.154-155 would give even more impressive results. Please correct me if I am wrong, haven't done this kind of math in a while.

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Rotbart van Dain...
post Jul 16 2007, 01:52 PM
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QUOTE (redne)
The bad news is that this would be a fall of about 182 meters, which does 93 boxes of damage. :dead:

Actually, it's approx 160m... though that isn't a significant difference.
82 damage will still splatter even the toughest troll.
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hyzmarca
post Jul 16 2007, 02:00 PM
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The good news is that a high-grade (significantly higher than is probable in a normal game) adept initiate with a lot of Freefall can survive it without a scratch.
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redne
post Jul 16 2007, 02:09 PM
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QUOTE (odinson)
The books has a rule for terminal velocity. It is 150m acceleration per turn up to 300 meters per second. Damage is also based on height not speed.

Actually, the rule is that the fall begins at 150 meters per turn, increasing 50m/turn until the velocity hits 300m/turn. This is one thing that has little basis on reality, but if it works...

But when jumping from a moving plane, for example, it's not only height that does the damage, it's also the forward motion from the plane. Jumping from a hovering helicopter at the height of 10 meters really means just 7 boxes of damage. Jumping from a helicopter moving 50m/s gives a starting velocity of 50m/s forward. Hitting ground a little less than 50m/s, even from height of only 10 meters, is roughly equivalent of hitting the ground with terminal velocity. Thats about that 80 boxes of damage again. :dead:
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hyzmarca
post Jul 16 2007, 02:15 PM
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You see, this is why Force diagrams are so useful.

If you have a horizontal velocity when you hit the ground, you will retain that horizontal velocity and essentially skid along the surface (assuming that you don't bounce). The rate at which you slow depends on the coefficient of kinetic friction of the surface and your body. On a surface with a high coefficient of kinetic friction, this can be very painful and would tear your skin up, but it would not add directly to the fall damage. This is why motorcycle riders wear thick leather, by the way.

Of course, this assumes a flat surface. On a slopped surface, it is necessary to measure the angles and use trigonometry to determine actual impact velocities.
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redne
post Jul 16 2007, 02:24 PM
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Damn, I didn't think of that. In my world things just stop when they hit the ground :grinbig: .
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Talia Invierno
post Jul 16 2007, 04:17 PM
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Of course, as odinson originally points out, all the PC really has to do -- OOC -- is to burn the Edge point , make that roll, and then the GM finds a nice soft glass ceiling or mass of pine trees to break their fall, or even the same airplane again.

Ironically, greater surface area is specifically associated with taking less damage in smaller falls independent of mass: something often made use of in aikido.

(Forward/vertical velocity notwithstanding, it's the air resistance that creates terminal velocity -- so you wouldn't necessarily Pythagoras "add" forces once you reach terminal velocity -- and over the distances involved the air resistance may well even turn diagonal movement into almost fully vertical movement. After all, skydivers can aim -- and that very precisely.

Edit:

All this discussion assumes both that the airplane started uncontrollably falling from a high altitude, and that the person had no way of slowing an individual fall. I can see a few factors which might modify both.

Airplanes rarely just fall out of the sky. More commonly the pilot is attempting a crash landing, trying to manage speed to at least partly glide and come in at something close to a landing angle. In those cases, it's a (relatively) moderate contact with the ground that ends up breaking up the aircraft -- but human beings are far more likely to survive the lower forces involved. In fact, large airplanes have able to glide into safe landings from quite high heights.

Is the person falling onto a downward slope? Consider the ski jumper.

Is there anything the person can use to slow their fall, parachute-style? It won't be as good as a parachute, but may slow terminal velocity slightly.

Second edit:

One of the involuntary glides of history was British Airways Flight 9, where all four engines (and consequently cabin power) had been stopped by volcanic ash, in a manner spectacularly visible to the passengers as well as the flight crew. After the initial attempt to restart the engines had failed, the captain relayed the following message to the passengers:
QUOTE
"Ladies and Gentlemen, this is your Captain speaking. We have a small problem. All four engines have stopped. We are doing our damnedest to get them going again. I trust you are not in too much distress."
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Moon-Hawk
post Jul 16 2007, 05:51 PM
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QUOTE (odinson)
I'd also start the damage from when the plane started to fall so a guy couldn't jump out at 10m and only take 5 boxes of damage.

Bah. That'll work fine. Didn't you ever watch GI Joe?
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hyzmarca
post Jul 16 2007, 06:02 PM
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We can assume that one of the passengers critically gliched with his monowhip and cut both of the plane's wings off, thus making a controlled glide impossible.
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Serial_Peacemake...
post Jul 16 2007, 11:41 PM
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Well obviously a plane crashing is going to be pretty fatal. I should have been clearer, if you are in a plane that is crashing, are there rules for getting out of the plane, and using a parachute, or perhaps levitate?
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Demerzel
post Jul 17 2007, 12:06 AM
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There is a parachuting skill but no mechanics... At this point I'd call it a success test... Set a threshold based on the situation. Like 1 for a simple jump out of a plane that is fitted for recreational jumping. 2 for a risky jump from a fast moving plane or attempting anything tricky. Go from there...
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Talia Invierno
post Jul 17 2007, 12:31 AM
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No game mechanics, but a bit of trivia which could have in-game uses:

UK parachute training used to involve going through a bomb bay equivalent: ie through the bottom of the airplane. (This may have changed, I don't know.) United States training always involved side openings for jumping, as do most recreation jump aircraft.

Most standard airplanes come with passenger-accessible side doors, but cargo has bottom-entry.

Most aircraft exterior doors are designed not to open in-flight.

Levitation at the last moment would not work unless you are clear of the aircraft, any more than jumping at the last moment works within a freefall elevator.
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Fortune
post Jul 17 2007, 12:33 AM
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When it comes to parachuting, almost any rules you make up will be better than those for SR3.
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sunnyside
post Jul 17 2007, 03:30 AM
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Just for the OP. Note that runners in an airplane that is going down aren't neccesarily screwed.

Any mage worth their salt can levetate. And can probably whistle up some bound spirits to grab the other team members, or levetate them as well. Also a rigger will like as not have brought along a dalmation which could concevebly get them down. Etc etc.

In short I'd worry as much about having to come up with rules for when a runner monowhips off a chunk of wing and tries to use it as a glider as working out the exact falling damage.

(or trying to use assault cannon fire like a rocket engine, whatever)
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Demerzel
post Jul 17 2007, 04:42 AM
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QUOTE (sunnyside)
(or trying to use assault cannon fire like a rocket engine, whatever)
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Fix-it
post Jul 17 2007, 04:53 AM
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extremely low altitude parachutes would most likely be standard equipment on aircraft in 2060.

hell. they probably have them in most high-rise buildings.
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PBTHHHHT
post Jul 17 2007, 05:15 AM
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And for small planes you can have it's own parachute system.
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KarmaInferno
post Jul 17 2007, 11:58 AM
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QUOTE (redne)
Thats about that 80 boxes of damage again. :dead:

So... the troll gets a nasty cut on his cheek?

:D


-karma
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Kyoto Kid
post Jul 17 2007, 06:35 PM
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QUOTE (Talia Invierno)
The height record for surviving a fall is held by Vesna Vulović, who fell over 10,000 metres: didn't survive unhurt, but did survive to eventually walk again.

...I remember this case back when I was still studying to be an aerospace engineer. Actually she was inside the tail section that fluttered down after the aircraft was blown apart. Technically it is not a true free fall as she was still within part of the wreckage, but still amazing nonetheless considering she was not thrown free during the descent.

The interesting sidelight was her political stance afterwards during the Balkan war.

*RiS participants read no further or a Troll will fall from the sky on each and every one of your characters*.
[ Spoiler ]
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Talia Invierno
post Jul 18 2007, 05:24 AM
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I waited for this thread to wind down before I posted this. From Laughs in the Shadows:
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Four Awakened shadowrunners in a small remotely-rigged airplane heard the single engine begin to cough and sputter ... and die - and only then discovered that there were only three parachutes on board.

The voudoun ork of Ghede did some fast thinking. "Look, guys, I'm nothing exceptional, but I'm cute, I'm pretty good at what I do, I'm pregnant, and I've got a husband and kids at home. So if it's all the same to you, I'm so gone." She waited just long enough for the others to agree - well, it certainly sounded like agreement, although it might have been a cough - before quickly strapping on a parachute and jumping out.

The hyper-intelligent Path of the Righ elf (with CH 8 and the Exceptional Attribute: IN Edge - but somehow without either Levitation or air elemental in tow) was only half a breath behind: "Listen, I am a member of Mensa, Intertel, Triple Nine, and the Awakened Elite. I have the highest IQ in the world. I've got Alachia on my fast-call.It would be unfair to allow humanity to lose the priceless resource of my brain power. The loss of my talents would be a blow to the entire elv - uh, human race!" And telepathy must have been one of his talents, because he did not need to wait even to hear agreement spoken aloud before strapping on a pack and jumping out.

The third, an older Jedi-style wuxing magician adept, looked at the young Coyote shaman who remained. "Look, son, you might as well take the last parachute and save yourself."

But the young shaman only grinned: "We still have two parachutes left. The last guy who jumped out took my knapsack."
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