Full Version: Bailing Out
Are there any rules for ditching from a flying vehicle? Especially ones that are fairly close to the earth. I know that land based crash tests can be survived, and that in reality people have bailed out from aircraft in real life. However surviving a crash test that starts at a mile up kind of strains belief. Excuse me if I simply missed this one while reading through the section on crash tests and such.
There is falling damage on page 154. But that's not really survivable without burning an edge. I'd also start the damage from when the plane started to fall so a guy couldn't jump out at 10m and only take 5 boxes of damage. Otherwise the crash rules are on page 160-161.
Seems there is no maximum damage from a fall. I guess it would probably make sense to house rule something in. Trolls and orks would also probably take more damage from a fall and elves would take less as they are lighter and smaller.
Seems there is no maximum damage from a fall. I guess it would probably make sense to house rule something in. Trolls and orks would also probably take more damage from a fall and elves would take less as they are lighter and smaller.
I'm sure there will be other posts that explain this better, but fallen bodies reach a terminal velocity in free fall that pretty much caps damage - you can only fall so fast. Weight isn't really an issue at that point.
| QUOTE (odinson) |
| Trolls and orks would also probably take more damage from a fall and elves would take less as they are lighter and smaller. |
Remember Galileo's classic experiment? Earth-standard acceleration = 9.8m/s^2, independent of mass. Air resistance creates terminal velocity, again the same for all, independent of mass (but dependent on such air factors as humidity). Fifty-five metres per second for the average, non-trained human body is a rough approximation, but can vary. For example, reducing surface area results in a higher terminal velocity, a technique commonly used by skydivers. HALO jumps invariably have higher terminal velocities because of the extreme thinness of the air at those altitudes: the initial velocity is so much higher before the lower, thicker air has a real chance to slow. Terminal velocity of meteors and THOR shots goes considerably higher.
The height record for surviving a fall is held by Vesna Vulović, who fell over 10,000 metres: didn't survive unhurt, but did survive to eventually walk again. Nick Alkemade managed to survive a fall of 5,500 metres almost entirely without injury.
Using fifty-five metres per second as terminal, and estimating over a standard combat round (3 seconds) gives 165 metres of fall in a single combat round. Does that give enough of a guideline for damage?
| QUOTE (Talia Invierno) | ||
Remember Galileo's classic experiment? Earth-standard acceleration = 9.8m/s^2, independent of mass. Air resistance creates terminal velocity, again the same for all, independent of mass (but dependent on such air factors as humidity). Fifty-five metres per second for the average, non-trained human body is a rough approximation, but can vary. For example, reducing surface area results in a higher terminal velocity, a technique commonly used by skydivers. Using fifty-five metres per second as terminal, and estimating over a standard combat round (3 seconds) gives 165 metres of fall in a single combat round. Does that give enough of a guideline for damage? |
I remember that gravity has the same effect on everything. The reasoning behind a troll or ork taking more damage is that they would have a larger mass to surface ratio would be larger than that for a human. Elves on the other hand would have a smaller mass to surface area ratio.
The books has a rule for terminal velocity. It is 150m acceleration per turn up to 300 meters per second. Damage is also based on height not speed.
So, with acceleration of 9.8m/s^2 you would reach your terminal velocity of 55m/s in 5.6 seconds. If falling damage depends on your impact velocity, you can't really get more damage from falling than you would get after a fall of 5.6 seconds.
The bad news is that this would be a fall of about 182 meters, which does 93 boxes of damage.
This is with RL numbers, the ones in SR4 p.154-155 would give even more impressive results. Please correct me if I am wrong, haven't done this kind of math in a while.
The bad news is that this would be a fall of about 182 meters, which does 93 boxes of damage.
This is with RL numbers, the ones in SR4 p.154-155 would give even more impressive results. Please correct me if I am wrong, haven't done this kind of math in a while.
| QUOTE (redne) |
| The bad news is that this would be a fall of about 182 meters, which does 93 boxes of damage. |
Actually, it's approx 160m... though that isn't a significant difference.
82 damage will still splatter even the toughest troll.
The good news is that a high-grade (significantly higher than is probable in a normal game) adept initiate with a lot of Freefall can survive it without a scratch.
| QUOTE (odinson) |
| The books has a rule for terminal velocity. It is 150m acceleration per turn up to 300 meters per second. Damage is also based on height not speed. |
Actually, the rule is that the fall begins at 150 meters per turn, increasing 50m/turn until the velocity hits 300m/turn. This is one thing that has little basis on reality, but if it works...
But when jumping from a moving plane, for example, it's not only height that does the damage, it's also the forward motion from the plane. Jumping from a hovering helicopter at the height of 10 meters really means just 7 boxes of damage. Jumping from a helicopter moving 50m/s gives a starting velocity of 50m/s forward. Hitting ground a little less than 50m/s, even from height of only 10 meters, is roughly equivalent of hitting the ground with terminal velocity. Thats about that 80 boxes of damage again.
You see, this is why Force diagrams are so useful.
If you have a horizontal velocity when you hit the ground, you will retain that horizontal velocity and essentially skid along the surface (assuming that you don't bounce). The rate at which you slow depends on the coefficient of kinetic friction of the surface and your body. On a surface with a high coefficient of kinetic friction, this can be very painful and would tear your skin up, but it would not add directly to the fall damage. This is why motorcycle riders wear thick leather, by the way.
Of course, this assumes a flat surface. On a slopped surface, it is necessary to measure the angles and use trigonometry to determine actual impact velocities.
If you have a horizontal velocity when you hit the ground, you will retain that horizontal velocity and essentially skid along the surface (assuming that you don't bounce). The rate at which you slow depends on the coefficient of kinetic friction of the surface and your body. On a surface with a high coefficient of kinetic friction, this can be very painful and would tear your skin up, but it would not add directly to the fall damage. This is why motorcycle riders wear thick leather, by the way.
Of course, this assumes a flat surface. On a slopped surface, it is necessary to measure the angles and use trigonometry to determine actual impact velocities.
Damn, I didn't think of that. In my world things just stop when they hit the ground 
.
.
Of course, as odinson originally points out, all the PC really has to do -- OOC -- is to burn the Edge point , make that roll, and then the GM finds a nice soft glass ceiling or mass of pine trees to break their fall, or even the same airplane again.
Ironically, greater surface area is specifically associated with taking less damage in smaller falls independent of mass: something often made use of in aikido.
(Forward/vertical velocity notwithstanding, it's the air resistance that creates terminal velocity -- so you wouldn't necessarily Pythagoras "add" forces once you reach terminal velocity -- and over the distances involved the air resistance may well even turn diagonal movement into almost fully vertical movement. After all, skydivers can aim -- and that very precisely.
Edit:
All this discussion assumes both that the airplane started uncontrollably falling from a high altitude, and that the person had no way of slowing an individual fall. I can see a few factors which might modify both.
Airplanes rarely just fall out of the sky. More commonly the pilot is attempting a crash landing, trying to manage speed to at least partly glide and come in at something close to a landing angle. In those cases, it's a (relatively) moderate contact with the ground that ends up breaking up the aircraft -- but human beings are far more likely to survive the lower forces involved. In fact, large airplanes have able to glide into safe landings from quite high heights.
Is the person falling onto a downward slope? Consider the ski jumper.
Is there anything the person can use to slow their fall, parachute-style? It won't be as good as a parachute, but may slow terminal velocity slightly.
Second edit:
One of the involuntary glides of history was British Airways Flight 9, where all four engines (and consequently cabin power) had been stopped by volcanic ash, in a manner spectacularly visible to the passengers as well as the flight crew. After the initial attempt to restart the engines had failed, the captain relayed the following message to the passengers:
Ironically, greater surface area is specifically associated with taking less damage in smaller falls independent of mass: something often made use of in aikido.
(Forward/vertical velocity notwithstanding, it's the air resistance that creates terminal velocity -- so you wouldn't necessarily Pythagoras "add" forces once you reach terminal velocity -- and over the distances involved the air resistance may well even turn diagonal movement into almost fully vertical movement. After all, skydivers can aim -- and that very precisely.
Edit:
All this discussion assumes both that the airplane started uncontrollably falling from a high altitude, and that the person had no way of slowing an individual fall. I can see a few factors which might modify both.
Airplanes rarely just fall out of the sky. More commonly the pilot is attempting a crash landing, trying to manage speed to at least partly glide and come in at something close to a landing angle. In those cases, it's a (relatively) moderate contact with the ground that ends up breaking up the aircraft -- but human beings are far more likely to survive the lower forces involved. In fact, large airplanes have able to glide into safe landings from quite high heights.
Is the person falling onto a downward slope? Consider the ski jumper.
Is there anything the person can use to slow their fall, parachute-style? It won't be as good as a parachute, but may slow terminal velocity slightly.
Second edit:
One of the involuntary glides of history was British Airways Flight 9, where all four engines (and consequently cabin power) had been stopped by volcanic ash, in a manner spectacularly visible to the passengers as well as the flight crew. After the initial attempt to restart the engines had failed, the captain relayed the following message to the passengers:
| QUOTE |
| "Ladies and Gentlemen, this is your Captain speaking. We have a small problem. All four engines have stopped. We are doing our damnedest to get them going again. I trust you are not in too much distress." |
| QUOTE (odinson) |
| I'd also start the damage from when the plane started to fall so a guy couldn't jump out at 10m and only take 5 boxes of damage. |
Bah. That'll work fine. Didn't you ever watch GI Joe?
We can assume that one of the passengers critically gliched with his monowhip and cut both of the plane's wings off, thus making a controlled glide impossible.
Well obviously a plane crashing is going to be pretty fatal. I should have been clearer, if you are in a plane that is crashing, are there rules for getting out of the plane, and using a parachute, or perhaps levitate?
There is a parachuting skill but no mechanics... At this point I'd call it a success test... Set a threshold based on the situation. Like 1 for a simple jump out of a plane that is fitted for recreational jumping. 2 for a risky jump from a fast moving plane or attempting anything tricky. Go from there...
No game mechanics, but a bit of trivia which could have in-game uses:
UK parachute training used to involve going through a bomb bay equivalent: ie through the bottom of the airplane. (This may have changed, I don't know.) United States training always involved side openings for jumping, as do most recreation jump aircraft.
Most standard airplanes come with passenger-accessible side doors, but cargo has bottom-entry.
Most aircraft exterior doors are designed not to open in-flight.
Levitation at the last moment would not work unless you are clear of the aircraft, any more than jumping at the last moment works within a freefall elevator.
UK parachute training used to involve going through a bomb bay equivalent: ie through the bottom of the airplane. (This may have changed, I don't know.) United States training always involved side openings for jumping, as do most recreation jump aircraft.
Most standard airplanes come with passenger-accessible side doors, but cargo has bottom-entry.
Most aircraft exterior doors are designed not to open in-flight.
Levitation at the last moment would not work unless you are clear of the aircraft, any more than jumping at the last moment works within a freefall elevator.
When it comes to parachuting, almost any rules you make up will be better than those for SR3.
Just for the OP. Note that runners in an airplane that is going down aren't neccesarily screwed.
Any mage worth their salt can levetate. And can probably whistle up some bound spirits to grab the other team members, or levetate them as well. Also a rigger will like as not have brought along a dalmation which could concevebly get them down. Etc etc.
In short I'd worry as much about having to come up with rules for when a runner monowhips off a chunk of wing and tries to use it as a glider as working out the exact falling damage.
(or trying to use assault cannon fire like a rocket engine, whatever)
Any mage worth their salt can levetate. And can probably whistle up some bound spirits to grab the other team members, or levetate them as well. Also a rigger will like as not have brought along a dalmation which could concevebly get them down. Etc etc.
In short I'd worry as much about having to come up with rules for when a runner monowhips off a chunk of wing and tries to use it as a glider as working out the exact falling damage.
(or trying to use assault cannon fire like a rocket engine, whatever)
| QUOTE (sunnyside) |
| (or trying to use assault cannon fire like a rocket engine, whatever) |
You must read Turn Signals on a Land Raider.
extremely low altitude parachutes would most likely be standard equipment on aircraft in 2060.
hell. they probably have them in most high-rise buildings.
hell. they probably have them in most high-rise buildings.
And for small planes you can have it's own parachute system.
| QUOTE (redne) |
| Thats about that 80 boxes of damage again. |
So... the troll gets a nasty cut on his cheek?
-karma
| QUOTE (Talia Invierno) |
| The height record for surviving a fall is held by Vesna Vulović, who fell over 10,000 metres: didn't survive unhurt, but did survive to eventually walk again. |
...I remember this case back when I was still studying to be an aerospace engineer. Actually she was inside the tail section that fluttered down after the aircraft was blown apart. Technically it is not a true free fall as she was still within part of the wreckage, but still amazing nonetheless considering she was not thrown free during the descent.
The interesting sidelight was her political stance afterwards during the Balkan war.
*RiS participants read no further or a Troll will fall from the sky on each and every one of your characters*.
[ Spoiler ]
I waited for this thread to wind down before I posted this. From Laughs in the Shadows:
| QUOTE |
| Four Awakened shadowrunners in a small remotely-rigged airplane heard the single engine begin to cough and sputter ... and die - and only then discovered that there were only three parachutes on board. The voudoun ork of Ghede did some fast thinking. "Look, guys, I'm nothing exceptional, but I'm cute, I'm pretty good at what I do, I'm pregnant, and I've got a husband and kids at home. So if it's all the same to you, I'm so gone." She waited just long enough for the others to agree - well, it certainly sounded like agreement, although it might have been a cough - before quickly strapping on a parachute and jumping out. The hyper-intelligent Path of the Righ elf (with CH 8 and the Exceptional Attribute: IN Edge - but somehow without either Levitation or air elemental in tow) was only half a breath behind: "Listen, I am a member of Mensa, Intertel, Triple Nine, and the Awakened Elite. I have the highest IQ in the world. I've got Alachia on my fast-call.It would be unfair to allow humanity to lose the priceless resource of my brain power. The loss of my talents would be a blow to the entire elv - uh, human race!" And telepathy must have been one of his talents, because he did not need to wait even to hear agreement spoken aloud before strapping on a pack and jumping out. The third, an older Jedi-style wuxing magician adept, looked at the young Coyote shaman who remained. "Look, son, you might as well take the last parachute and save yourself." But the young shaman only grinned: "We still have two parachutes left. The last guy who jumped out took my knapsack." |
| QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig) | ||
Actually, it's approx 160m... though that isn't a significant difference. 82 damage will still splatter even the toughest troll. |
That's only if it hits me. With my reflexes I'm going to dodge the earth.
| QUOTE (Solomon Greene) |
| I'm sure there will be other posts that explain this better, but fallen bodies reach a terminal velocity in free fall that pretty much caps damage - you can only fall so fast. Weight isn't really an issue at that point. |
FWIW, mass is an issue.
When you hit the earth, what's really happening is you're getting hit with a big ass normal force which provides you with a large enough acceleration to reduce your velocity to zero over a very, very short distance.
And the amount of force necessary for that to happen is definitely going to be impacted by your mass.
(However, if what you were intending to say was that at terminal velocity, mass is likely to be the minority factor in the amount of damage done... then I would agree.)
| QUOTE (Talia Invierno) |
Airplanes rarely just fall out of the sky. More commonly the pilot is attempting a crash landing, trying to manage speed to at least partly glide and come in at something close to a landing angle. In those cases, it's a (relatively) moderate contact with the ground that ends up breaking up the aircraft -- but human beings are far more likely to survive the lower forces involved. In fact, large airplanes have able to glide into safe landings from quite high heights. |
Airplanes "almost never" fall out of the sky. I can think of two ways that they would: 1. They are shot down (actually possible in SR) 2. The pilot does something stupid and overstresses the plane. How easy this is to do depends upon the load limits of the plane. A trip 7 I think has a load limit of around 1.5g's a cesna 1-72 has a load limit of around 3.5 g's and the extra I'm currently training in is rated to +/- 10 g's (that plane ain't falling out of the sky) You might be interested to know that pulling a bank angle in a turn of 60 degress can cause a load on the wings of 2g's (effectively doubling the total weight the wings are supporting). 45 degress is a little more than 1.4 g's. Look up a load factor chart. They're cool. This is actually why the airlines want pilots who are trained in upset recovery. It is possible to do crazy things with non-aerobatic planes; just ask Bob Hoover (there should be video of his power management skills somewhere on the internet).
Seriously unless you're shot down or you pull a maneuver that exceeds the load limits of a plane enough to rip the wings or tails off you're not falling out fo the sky.
If you're in the air and your engine fails you follow the ABC's of an emergency:
Airspeed- every plane has a best glide speed this will allow you to glide the longest before reaching the ground
Best place to land- look for a good field or an airstrip if possible-and try to land w/ a headwind.
Check your engine- you should have a flow that will allow you to attempt to restart the engine
Declare- if all else fails you set your transponder to 7700 (ememrgency) get on the emergency frequency and call out "Mayday Mayday Mayday; this is (insert tail number) declairing an emergency... try to give them your general position too. also, it's a good idea to start your ELT just before touchdown.
If you find a good place to land and you manage your glide speeds properly (this is down by adusting your pitch angle which doesn't require an engine) you should be fine.
Just so you know- everything I've said here is for real. I'm currently training to become an airline pilot and flight is a serious passion of mine. The school I'm at teaches a slightly different approach to emergencies than the abc's but that's one that most fixed base operations (f.b.o.s) use.
You can also fall out of the sky due to certain types of stalls and spins. But, in theory, you can recover from most of them given enough altitude.
| QUOTE (Shinobi Killfist) |
| That's only if it hits me. With my reflexes I'm going to dodge the earth. |
"There is an art to flying, or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss. Clearly, it is this second part, the missing, that provides the difficulties."
| QUOTE (bibliophile20) | ||
"There is an art to flying, or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss. Clearly, it is this second part, the missing, that provides the difficulties." |
Oh, you beat me. I was going to post that!
| QUOTE (Moon-Hawk) | ||||
Oh, you beat me. I was going to post that! |
Oh and BTW:
| QUOTE |
| The designer of the gun had clearly not been instructed to beat about the bush. 'Make it evil,' he'd been told. 'Make it totally clear that this gun has a right end and a wrong end. Make it totally clear to anyone standing at the wrong end that things are going badly for them. If that means sticking all sort of spikes and prongs and blackened bits all over it then so be it. This is not a gun for hanging over the fireplace or sticking in the umbrella stand, it is a gun for going out and making people miserable with.' |
I want one of these for a NPC runner that I'm designing.
| QUOTE (Talia Invierno) |
| Airplanes rarely just fall out of the sky. More commonly the pilot is attempting a crash landing, trying to manage speed to at least partly glide and come in at something close to a landing angle. In those cases, it's a (relatively) moderate contact with the ground that ends up breaking up the aircraft -- but human beings are far more likely to survive the lower forces involved. |
...a good example of an actual crash landing which, while it appeared terrible on video, had a remarkably high survival rate:
United 232
| QUOTE (Moon-Hawk @ Jul 18 2007, 04:06 PM) | ||||
Oh, you beat me. I was going to post that! |
x2
Edit @ Kyoto Kid:
I had to read the article through, but I remember hearing about that crash now. I didn't know the background detail before.
...a pretty amazing testament to the piloting skill on the flight crew's part. By all rights that plane should have never remained airborne after it lost all hydraulics, the #2 engine, and part of the horizontal stabiliser. I read the official report in Aviation Leak after the investigation and they damn near pulled off landing that thing.
...an example of Edge/Karma Pool in RL.
...an example of Edge/Karma Pool in RL.
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