 The art of shadowrunning, from the perspective of a D&D vet |
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 Jul 17 2007, 03:19 AM
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#1
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Target  Group: Members Posts: 79 Joined: 11-July 07 Member No.: 12,214  |
Well, I'd like to open by saying this is my first post on these forums, I've spent the past week or so reading through posts and conversations in these forums and have learned a lot from it, so the point of this post is really to clarify some points that I haven't quite understood, and to get some advice from veteran Shadowrunners. I played the sega, and the super nintendo games, as well have run a few short sessions with second edition in the past, but primarily I have been an D&D nerd, as well this would be my first foray into GMing a campaign.
so, without any further yammering: 1 - how do Dragons in SR compare to Dragons in D&D, it seems to me that they're more prominent in everyday life, and they have more of a hand in political and corporate affairs, but would you consider them to be as dangerous as their D&D counterparts, and what would be involved in negotiating with one. 2 - The Players guide and GM Screen are obviously a vital part of a GM's arsenal, but I'm having difficulty in deciding which other guides would be good to read and have around as a major resource, Mr. Johnson's little black book has been recommended a few times I've noticed, but the pickings for 4th edition seem to be pretty slim right now and I'm not sure what else I need now, and what can wait. 3 - In comparing Earth, the Matrix, and the Astral World, could they best be seen as 3 dimensional layers? In that, each layer represents a different view of a simultanious reality. for example, within the astral world, would the world you see bear any resemblance to the world your physical form resides in? As for the Matrix if you subscribed to a node and went full VR, then from that node connected to a node inside a building nearby, would your Icon be considered as traveling to that node to read its information and having to travel back to your originating node in order to read the originating node's information, or would it be more akin to making a copy and you could access the information on both nodes simultaiously? 4 - In a typical legal battle, which would take presidence, corporate laws or national laws? does it depend on the location, who your SIN was registered with, or is it a simple tiered ladder? 5 - In what way does religion exist in SR, I have seen few, if any references to Christianity, Judaism, or Muslim beliefs, do these religions still exist, and how powerful would their presence be? 6 - In 4th edition, would cyberdecks and equivelant 3rd edition gear be usable with the current matrix? I would assume it would require a hardware connection, but would it be effective in combatting current IC and traversing the wireless web with hardware access to a wireless node? Thats all I can think of right now, any other suggestions you may have would be welcome and appreciated |
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Jul 17 2007, 03:33 AM
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#2
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Creating a god with his own hands Group: Members Posts: 1,405 Joined: 30-September 02 From: 0:0:0:0:0:0:0:1 Member No.: 3,364 |
1: They aren't in everyday life. consider them as gods. as for negotiating: there ain't no such thing. a dragon tellls you to do something... you do it. then hope he forgets you exist.
2: IDK 3: yes. kind of, i'm too lazy to read the rest. 4: depends entirely on the circumstances. some corporations would not even give you a trial. you'd be shot "trying to escape". or you'd just disappear. 5: all exist. some are as powerfull as mid-sized corporations 6: technically not. (the web was pretty much rebuilt after the crash..) fluff wise it's entirely up to you, the GM |
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Jul 17 2007, 03:43 AM
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#3
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,677 Joined: 5-June 03 Member No.: 4,689 |
First of all, fatal2ty, welcome both to the forums and to the game!
Much much more dangerous, exponentially. The great dragons are superhumanly clever and sly, and are almost impossible for PCs to kill. In fact, there was a thread here -- check the Shadowrun forum -- testing whether it was even possible: custom-created team as a one-off, and even then almost all of them died. Generally, SR is much more lethal than D&D; and the dragons are the height of that. Socially, you have the idea.
Core SR4 books are the main Shadowrun book, Street Magic, and Augmentation (when it comes out, after August). There will also be a vehicle book at some time -- I'm going to go out on a limb and assume it's going to be called Rigger 4. Everything else is either event-based book, geography-based book, or plotbook (runs -- think of them as D&D modules).
Detailed Matrix answers I leave to others, but the three worlds are co-existent. The astral world definitely has a resemblance: think of it almost as a different way of looking at the same thing, where life is the primary lightsource. The Matrix world does not necessarily: it entirely depends on the individual construct. For example, I believe Renraku uses the image of a mailroom to represent corporate data packets busing to-and-fro; while Tir Tairngire has created a detailed, otherworldly "castle". Think of each individual construct as an intricate metaphor, of whatever type the corporation/country/individual wishes. However, to access full VR or to astrally project, the PC "turns off" the mundane world temporarily: we're really only capable of perceiving only one at a time. I'm not sure what you mean by three-dimensional?
It entirely depends on location, even over your SIN. The major AAA corporations and even some smaller ones are extraterritorial: in effect their own countries, and not subject to country law at all within those borders. There might be treaty agreements between specific corporations and specific countries, but they are not part of canon: each GM gets to make these up on their own. You'd be safest to assume that you are completely subject to the laws -- or even whims -- of whichever power owns the piece of territory on which you committed the infraction. Matrix law is particularly challenging: in that you are subject to the laws both of where your body is and where your VR presence is.
Street Magic makes it clear that all of these religions still exist -- specifically in the context that each of these had to deal with the re-emergence of magic. Their power has deliberately been left somewhat vague, to be fleshed out by individual GMs.
Cyberdecks have been replaced by commlinks, which serve much the same function wirelessly. You no longer have to worry about memory. You could probably use an older cyberdeck in the same way as a commlink, but it might be clumsy in comparison: administer whatever negatives you feel appropriate. |
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Jul 17 2007, 03:49 AM
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#4
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,379 Joined: 16-April 02 From: the LI shadows Member No.: 2,607 |
I think I might be able to help, I myself being a former AD&D gamer from a loooooooooooong time ago. How long? Before SpellJammer, before Planescape; back when the Forgotten Realms were just being accepted as the 'main' AD&D world.
First off, you should get familiar with some of the concepts from some very good sources; most cyberpunk-genre stories, some films & anime....for me, it all started with William Gibson's Neuromancer. He may not like what's happening with 'his' genre, but it's a good place to start. Also, find & read ALL the SR novels. No doubt quite a few DS-members here can point out more/better cyberpunk sources, but let me get back to your questions.... #1--The Dragons of SR may seem more prevailent, but most are just as reclusive (save for the late Dunkelzahn) & not overly fond of 'lesser' races. Some people in the SR world live their entire lives without ever meeting a Dracoform face-to-face. Oh yes, they are as dangerous as their counterparts, but with a few added edges: they have lackeys, they have corporations, and they have more money than, well, God. #2-- Any sourcebook reccomended at least more than twice is ESSENTIAL. Someone will reference some book & you'll need it to confirm. #3--You pretty much answered your question right there. Re-read any entry on Astral Sight or going Astral in the main rules & the sb Street Magic.As for the Icon thing, yes. #4--Corporate laws take precedence if you are on any corporate-owned land or in any corporate-leased building. National laws likewise apply only if you are on or in such designated areas. Many a shadowrunner has tried to get out of prosecution by a Corp by simply leaving it's jurisdiction. It's extremely rare that they get away with it. Many national goverments have 'quick-resolution' extradition treaties with several (if not all) Corporations stationed in their borders. Makes it easier just to hand the 'law-breakers' over to the offended Corp....saves on paperwork & makes the Nation look good. #5--Again, check Street Magic. Religeon is very much a part of the Sixth World, especially when backed up by a person's faith & their Magic talents. #6--Yes, but they would need some seriously expensive upgrades until they themselves get SOTA (State of the Art). The players can buy second-hand/third hand adapters & AR translators at some shady low-end tech shops (& risk a greater threat of it failing at a crucial moment), but it would be just easier to upgrade across the board. Hope that helps. |
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Jul 17 2007, 03:54 AM
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#5
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Moving Target Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 453 Joined: 15-August 02 From: Kansas City, MO Member No.: 3,116 |
More dangerous by far. They aren't beasts, like in D&D. They plot and scheme and have been around for a very, very, very long time. Their talons are in everything and there's nothing anyone can do about it. Great Reds in D&D get taken out all the time by parties of adventurers. In Shadowrun... not so much. =)
Yes. Taking this further, there are a striking number of similarities and just about every form in the astral has a matrix counterpart (spirits versus sprites, for example).
You can keep a ton of nodes open at any time (system rating x 2). See SR4 page 218.
No tiered ladder. No precedence. Corps are countries in every legal sense. Corps even have citizenship. See here.
Just like today, but with more religious diversity and extremism across the board. See here and here.
I'm sure this has been discussed on this site a number of times, but I can't find a definite answer in canon. See this SR3 to SR4 conversion guide. It implies they are no more, but doesn't come out and just say "Look, these old things just won't work now." |
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Jul 17 2007, 03:59 AM
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#6
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,917 Joined: 31-December 06 Member No.: 10,502 |
1. Ok the big big difference in SR vs D&D is that SR dragons are actually smart. Yeah yeah I know the intelligence scores of D&D dragons, but DMs just generally have them sit in a cave until some PCs kill them.
SR dragons are smart and proactive. For example even if, hypothetically, the PCs did kill a dragon, expect it's will to offer untold amounts of wealth to whoever kills the PCs. But they wouldn't ever be able to sneak up on a dragons lair. It would have elaborate magical and technological defenses. More importantly it probably knows you're looking into going after it. What, your hacker thought he could search for info on a dragon and not get flagged? It's pretty simple. Dragon leaves some juicy relevant bit where a skilled matrix data search could find it. Whoever shows up in the relevant node gets traced. Players asking around for info? Sure your fixer knows somebody who knows something about the dragon, he can get the info for a price. Except the person the fixer knows is secretly in the employ of the dragon(a real world version of the matrix thing). The fixer gets his comcall traced. Maybe gets his place bugged. Pretty soon the dragon knows about the runners. Stuff like that. It's how dragons operate. And their actual lair probably isn't where everyone thinks it is anyway. In negotiating with a dragon expect it's plots ot be twisted and elaborate. Dragons in natural form also can't speak and must use telepathy. (wow we're posting fast today) Note that there are ranges of dragons and intelligences. There could be a weaker regular dragon that is highly reclusive. However still expect some very high end spirits, wards, anchored spells, paracritter friends, etc. And again finding it's layer isn't as simple as asking the peasents. Also remember they keep thinking. Just fighting until they're dead isn't their style. Finally an important fact is that you don't "level" in SR and get more hit points. In D&D an epic level character can reasonably survive even high end dragon attacks. In SR you stay soft and squishy. |
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Jul 17 2007, 04:07 AM
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#7
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Target Group: Members Posts: 95 Joined: 23-June 07 Member No.: 11,998 |
There's an important distinction between dragons and Dragons in Shadowrun. There are many dragons, but few that are classified as Great Dragons - those that are shake the entire world when they move. Great Dragons sway entire nations - dealing with them is analogous to dealing with a deity in another setting. Lesser Dragons can be dealt with without having to resort to campaign-shattering levels of power, but are still incredibly dangerous. In terms of raw power, an average dragon can take on a group of well-armed attackers and expect to survive without great harm. The wrath of an unbridled Great Dragon is the stuff of setting legends, leveling cities and re-arranging the map. Aden burned Tehran and Ghostwalker remade Denver in his own image. As of yet - the world has yet to figure out how to deal with Great Dragons.
There's a smattering of books I'd reccomend that address some of your questsions. The Sprawl Survival guide, the Guide to North America, any of the books that deal with the world as a whole. The nice thing about SR books is that certain ones are really independent of setting - the ones that describe the world are just damned useful. If you can find a copy, Shadowbeat is nice, too, but it's old.
The Earth and the Astral plane are contiguous, intermingled and co-dependant. The difference is that, on the Astral, emotions aren't just abstract concepts, but concrete realities that define form. A book can't be read on the Astral plane - you can't make out the words. What you can see is the emotions that the book causes. You can't read the spine of "Lusty Vampire Vixens and Biker Bitches from Epislon 9" but you can see the tawdry, pinkish red colour of lust that it has inspired. I ain't touchin' the Matrix, because there are people here who do a much, much better job of explaining it than I could. There's also been other threads - try searching, see what you come up with.
I bet in the SR universe, there are entire series of law books related to this question. However, if you look at it from a large scale, it comes down to this: Did the incident happen on Corporate Property, or not? If it did, corporations are their own governments and have the right to persecute crimes and request extradition of criminals. If not, it's a matter of national law. It's where the borders are murky that it becomes a hassle (and the resolution becomes "story appropriate" in my book - what's good for the game, goes.)
All the religions still exist, not just the big ones. In addition, there are several new "faiths" that have sprung up into existance - mostly minor fringe cults. Again, let me pimp the Sprawl Survival Guide from 3rd Edition. It has excellent write-ups on this stuff, including how they've adapted to the pressence of the Awakened. Seriously, it's one of the must-have books for new Shadowrun gamers.
Sure you could, but it's old, old tech and would need some heavy conversion. Can you get a Tandy on the modern internets with broadband? ... actually, I'm not sure, cause I'm not a computer guy, really - but if you could, it would be highly modded and more of a curiousity than anything else. Matrix people help! |
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Jul 17 2007, 04:13 AM
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#8
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Target Group: Members Posts: 79 Joined: 11-July 07 Member No.: 12,214 |
So summing up #1 could safely be "SR Dragons are gods, avoid them, or at least make them impossibly difficult.", fair enough.
To add to #2, are there any good canon books from SR1-3 that are more generalized that may help in SR4? #3 seems clearer to me, but a thought i just had would be, could you use a node connected to a satellite to connect to another node on the other side of a country, or even the planet? Or is there a distance limitation for your connections? #4 makes sense, are there any maps depicting corporate boundaries, or is that all that the GMs discression? #5 is an easy answer, and gives me some ideas for a Campaign and I'm happy with the answer for #6. But to exapnd it, lets say the team found an old cyberdeck that supposedly held vital information, would it be somewhat easy to interface with it, or would it require a trip to a hardware store? |
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Jul 17 2007, 04:19 AM
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#9
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Target Group: Members Posts: 95 Joined: 23-June 07 Member No.: 11,998 |
Firstly:
For the cyberdeck: That's a trip to the hardware store and some tricky Electronic rolls. On the Run has a section where players have to deal with an old optical chip (SR3 Tech) and it ain't easy. |
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Jul 17 2007, 04:22 AM
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#10
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Creating a god with his own hands Group: Members Posts: 1,405 Joined: 30-September 02 From: 0:0:0:0:0:0:0:1 Member No.: 3,364 |
corporate territory starts when you walk onto thier property when you walk into an Ares store, you're on their sovereign territory. you are under Ares law. same for Saedder Krupp, same for Aztechnology.
should be pretty easy if the hacker knoweth there stuff. moderate hardware/electronics test. it really wasn't that long ago timeline-wise. I don't really think it would be that difficult. my 64-bit dual core pc (2006 tech) can read 3.5 inch floppy disks (early 1980s) with no problem. |
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Jul 17 2007, 04:23 AM
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#11
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Moving Target Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 453 Joined: 15-August 02 From: Kansas City, MO Member No.: 3,116 |
No distance limitation. Speed of light, and all that jazz. We get a colony on Mars with a net connection and you can start talking about some serious lag time, though. =)
Corp border lines follow their property lines. Take the Renraku Arcology, for example. It's a giant pyramid-shaped building in Seattle. While on-site, you are under Renraku legal jurisdiction. It's that simple.
An electronics kit would probably suffice for simple interfacing as you describe (to extract data). |
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Jul 17 2007, 04:27 AM
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#12
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,677 Joined: 5-June 03 Member No.: 4,689 |
... uhm, virtually everything that isn't rules or catalogue of items? And even some of the item catalogues had attached shadowtalk that gave you an inside perspective, on the items and on the world generally. Honestly, if you can find any SR2 sourcebook, snap it up. The Universal Brotherhood is particularly infamous :vegm:
Think about all the buildings in your own city or town that may be partly or wholly owned by a corporation. Now imagine that each of those buildings is a small extraterritorial enclave: in effect a piece of a different country. Sometimes the effect can be disturbingly unnoticeable by PCs who haven't thoroughly researched their run environment.
I'd require the PC to make a successful Hardware (skill) roll, at a moderately high threshold. Most deckers should probably already have most of the equipment on hand -- but you could make a critical part no longer available in computer stores, it's so obsolete. (See Solomon Greene's comment re Tandy.) |
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Jul 17 2007, 04:28 AM
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#13
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Creating a god with his own hands Group: Members Posts: 1,405 Joined: 30-September 02 From: 0:0:0:0:0:0:0:1 Member No.: 3,364 |
what becomes fun is when the PCs start leaving and entering multiple jurisdictions. while local police or security forces may be able to enter some corporate jurisdictions in persuit of criminals, some (aztechnology comes to mind) are less cooperative. so you can dodge in and out of different corp's territory and hope the bureaucracy slows down your pursuers. |
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Jul 17 2007, 04:32 AM
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#14
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,917 Joined: 31-December 06 Member No.: 10,502 |
Elaborating on the matrix. I wouldn't think of it overlaying the real world, more like a seperate dimension. You connect to the matrix anywhere and you can pretty well get anywhere else. (the obvious exception being the isolated systems the good paydata is on).
You don't typically even decide how your data is routed. You also maybe changing how you access it (for example as the team drives around you are probably roaming from node to node to access the matrix). Also that signal may be bouncing through three sattelites and one undersea fibre line. All of that is assumed to be handled by the system seamlessly. |
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Jul 17 2007, 04:36 AM
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#15
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Target Group: Members Posts: 79 Joined: 11-July 07 Member No.: 12,214 |
ok, heres another thought I just had, IRL I live in Edmonton, Canada, so the prospect of sending my team to the Athabaskan Council in a Campaign is tempting, are there any dedicated guides to the Athabaskan Council, or will I just be piecing it together from other guides
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Jul 17 2007, 04:36 AM
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#16
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,677 Joined: 5-June 03 Member No.: 4,689 |
Oh, and the police themselves are a corporation. In some runs that could be relevant. For example, there is an ongoing rivalry between the police (Lone Star) and the Ares contract security force Knight Errant -- and if the PCs are in a position to embarrass one, maybe the other might be more willing to give them a break?
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Jul 17 2007, 04:38 AM
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#17
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Creating a god with his own hands Group: Members Posts: 1,405 Joined: 30-September 02 From: 0:0:0:0:0:0:0:1 Member No.: 3,364 |
yes. they're called the Native American Nation books, there's 2-3 of them. they are also out of print, and probably the rarest books around. Good luck finding them. |
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Jul 17 2007, 04:58 AM
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#18
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Target Group: Members Posts: 79 Joined: 11-July 07 Member No.: 12,214 |
I love torrents, i'm now in possession of all the books mentioned in this thread, most I will buy hardcopy, but for now this works(yes, even the Native American Nation books). thanks for all your input and suggestions so far.
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Jul 17 2007, 05:03 AM
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#19
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,180 Joined: 22-January 07 From: Rochester, NY Member No.: 10,737 |
1. If you're interested in Shadowrun dragons, hunt down Dragons of the Sixth World. (Looking forward to using both Damon and Celedyr in my campaign... :vegm: ) but, yes, they're scary fraggers; as was mentioned, Aden reduced Tehran to ruins, Ghostwalker went toe-to-talon with the Azzies (and just about everyone else in Denver) and won; at one point in that fight, he took a air-to-air missile on the chin and shrugged it off. And if you read the late President Dunklezhan's will, you will realize exactly how much resources the lizards have at their disposal.
2. The older books that I've found over the past year that I consider the most useful are: Dragons of the Sixth World Threats 2 Loose Alliances Year of the Comet New Seattle Corporate Download Sprawl Survival Guide System Failure 3rd ed. SR Companion And I found some ideas in Target: Matrix that I plan to inflict on my hacker (he's already come up against the "Hunt-A-Decker" business, and I plan to see how long it'll take before anyone notices his absence when he finds a node that's frozen) 3. For that question, I shall defer to knasser. 4. Check the Sprawl Survival Guide; good stuff there on the legal system. Personally, though, if my SINless players ever get caught by a corp, they're in for a rough time; cranial bombs or Gerzel's fun suggestion in this thread as incentive to do whatever the exec wants them to do. 5. The religions are still around, although they're losing followers daily; however, the Middle East is still feeling the grip of Islamic fundies, no one wants to mess with Israel after they nuked Tripoli, and the Christian right is still going strong in the U.S. Also, there are bits in Loose Alliances and Threats 2 about religious groups. Oh, and in Runner Havens, there's a group in Seattle called the People of the Book which is a cross-religion project. And, as I'm Jewish myself, there'll be a magical group of Awakened rabbis available soon for download and use as NPCs (I couldn't resist when I saw the Quabbalist tradition in Street Magic). 6. Do you have any Pentium III computers left in your house? Think the same thing, except worse. The rate of advancement today is running up the tree of knowledge like a hyperactive squirrel; in 2070, it'll be like that same squirrel after a couple of cans of Jolt soda, some Red Bull and the most sugary cereal that you can find. |
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Jul 17 2007, 05:38 AM
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#20
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,677 Joined: 5-June 03 Member No.: 4,689 |
*cough* I'm posting off a Pentium III. The sole issue I have -- other than some piece of malware I've picked up somewhere that's violently objecting to Flash -- is the actual connection (so called "high speed" dial-up).
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Jul 17 2007, 06:11 AM
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#21
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,180 Joined: 22-January 07 From: Rochester, NY Member No.: 10,737 |
Sorry. *sheepish smile* Perhaps a Pentium II would be more illustrative? Or maybe AGP expansion slots?
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Jul 17 2007, 06:38 AM
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#22
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,677 Joined: 5-June 03 Member No.: 4,689 |
And then there's the 486 in the background ;) (though I've had to cannibalise its monitor for this computer -- the previous one died, not in sparks, but in loud *bang* and smell of burnt wiring). I think I tore out every extraneous file from the core MS functions (Word/Excel/Powerpoint/IE) getting that one to flow smoothly with an Internet connection. I even found and deleted the picture of Bill Gates.
Let's compromise on a 286 if we're being kind -- the step just below where people who liked playing with computer innards used to find it cost-effective to upgrade -- or, if the GM is feeling particulary SotA-ish: a Commodore 64. I wonder if there are old cyberdeck clubs out there, swapping among themselves the available programs? |
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Jul 17 2007, 06:42 AM
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#23
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 946 Joined: 16-September 05 From: London Member No.: 7,753 |
Hi,
First off, welcome to the SR throng - I hope you enjoy the experience !! Anyways, I find the D&D vs SR Dragon conversation most interesting in showing how people played Dragons in D&D, even though they are very nearly the same as SR Dragons - just without the tech. As has been mentioned, Corps have extra-territoriality and their properties are considered separate countries [there's an explanation of how this happened in the SR rulebook].. ..But in practice they don't push their boundaries and extra-territoriality much, to try and maintain a 'good' public image. Obviously, criminals receive the full weight of Corp Law, but minor transgressions of public idiocy has people handed over to the local law enforcement [usually a Corp of its own]. The longterm storage of data is starting to be a problem even now, and is a project that was mentioned on the BBC website recently - 1 generation apart can usually be worked around, but the problem you're talking about is more like 2 or 3 generations difference - 5.25 inch floppies, 3 inch disks, 14400 baud modems, etc. In fact, since the 'Internet' was rebuilt from the ground up, maybe using an 'old' Deck is like using the equivalent to using a non-cyberdeck to access the Matrix - slow, cumbersome, barely usable. After all, cyberdecks are meant to be specialised computers in the first place, so take that advantage away and they're not much use [Kromosome [another Cyberpunk RPG] has good rules on different grades of computer]. Just my thruppence.. |
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Jul 17 2007, 06:58 AM
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#24
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,507 Joined: 27-January 05 From: ...and I'm all out of bubblegum Member No.: 7,021 |
VESA local bus, if you want to get ancient :) Sorry, Talia :) |
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Jul 17 2007, 07:24 AM
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#25
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Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
There's a lot of dragon worship that goes on around here that has little basis in the game rules. Dragons are tough physicallly and magically, they are also very, very smart. But they're not invulnerable, epic beings. If they come up against serious firepower, they will die. Take comments like "they have more money than X" with a pinch of salt. There's no reason why they should. Some of the Great Dragons are very wealthy. Doesn't mean that all the normal dragons are. One of the fundamental differences between Shadowrun and D&D is the "eggshells armed with hammers" philosophy that runs all the way through it. It's easier to attack than to defend. That's why everything is so focused on subterfuge and betrayal. And this even extends to dragons. Their real advantage is they are very smart and tend to lack human moral restraint. Not any great physical or magical power. Check the stats in the book and run the numbers if you don't believe me. Besides, what fun are impossible to beat beings from a player's point of view. None, actually. |
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