 The art of shadowrunning, from the perspective of a D&D vet |
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 Jul 17 2007, 07:47 AM
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#26
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Shooting Target  Group: Members Posts: 1,677 Joined: 5-June 03 Member No.: 4,689  |
@ bclements: Hey, it's not that bad! And besides, there are Plans to upgrade, sometime before Christmas. I've been pointed to lots and lots of non-Vista possibilities in the Infiltration Challenge thread. (I don't see Vista as any kind of improvement. I'd almost rather be using DOS again.) Re dragons: Standard ones have been weakened enough to make them (just) potentially killable by high-level PCs (but don't forget Hardened Armor 8, Mystic Armor 8, Compulsion, Fear, Influence -- quite apart from any spells they might have, since they are all magicians). Great dragons are in another league again. Check out the Twist Fate power:
Combine that with a Control-variant spell, and one or more of the would-be dragon killers might well suddenly find themselves turned against their own party. |
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Jul 17 2007, 08:13 AM
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#27
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 472 Joined: 14-June 07 Member No.: 11,909 |
Even with the twist fate power, they're still only nice, but not unkillable. Drain-rules for high-powered spells cast against multiple objects still apply to Great Dragons too, so they can't cast all too high spells around. If somebody wants to take out a Great Dragon, they'll be smart and well-equipped enough to deal with him and have a good chance to succeed (not exactly 50%, probably less, but still affordable), exactly the same in D&D. There, you have super-high-powered adventurers with super-expensive magical items specialised on killing dragons taking on the Elder Wyrms.
It's only a group-intern matter of how killable you want to make them. However, SR shouldn't be D&D in the future. Greater Dragons simply use their smarts to not engage in any battle at all. The farer the technology goes on, the less the Greater Dragons are able to take humans hand-on single-handedly. Of course, you do have the odd exception like Ghostwalker, but that was under the power-creep of third edition, where Shadowrunners also seemed to become superheroes, instead of the hired criminals they're meant to be and has been re-justified in 4th edition. Tone down the power-creep from before. |
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Jul 17 2007, 08:25 AM
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#28
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,677 Joined: 5-June 03 Member No.: 4,689 |
Power creep -- before?
Before, when you could only begin up to a specific level, which represented only the beginnings of true mastery? and gave an infinite scale for growth? Whereas now, under SR4 rules, when most Dumpshock players seem to feel they aren't properly optimising their builds if they don't absolutely max out their area of expertise to the point where no improvement is possible there -- not to hired criminal level, but to best in the world level? -- and with 'ware, well beyond what is humanly possible? Which system has the power creep again? |
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Jul 17 2007, 08:38 AM
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#29
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 472 Joined: 14-June 07 Member No.: 11,909 |
Dumpshock-users do not represent the majority (nor are they a minority either). Not everybody wants and needs a 6/7 in whatever particular skill there is.
Also, infinite growth isn't a good argument against the power-creep of SR3. Quite contrarily. That's where the infamous Thor comes from, the SR-character, published somewhere on the internet either for real or as a joke on the rules (people rather theorised it was meant for real) who had more strenght, body, charisma, willpower, intelligence and quickness than every Great Dragon was ever going to have. |
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Jul 17 2007, 02:03 PM
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#30
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Cybernetic Blood Mage Group: Members Posts: 3,472 Joined: 11-March 06 From: Northeastern Wyoming Member No.: 8,361 |
Besides, I get the feeling that many of the "best of the best" one-trick-ponies that get posted here aren't what people actually play, . I don't have any real evidence of that, but it's a feeling that I get, just like all the debates about how "broken" magic or whatever else is as a thought execise.
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Jul 17 2007, 02:37 PM
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#31
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Moving Target Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 453 Joined: 15-August 02 From: Kansas City, MO Member No.: 3,116 |
Dude, are you reading the same rules and canon material that I am? We're talking about Great Dragons here. Nothing short of atomics can take them out. It's not "dragon worship," it's just the facts. The stats and powers are totally over the top. In fact, they even go so far as to mention that the stats or pointless but listed in case you need something in a hurry. Can you say "hardened armor of 20+???" From SR4 pg 295-296...
I love you, dude, but you are totally smoking crack here. =)
Fear keeps you alive. And at the end of the day, everyone fears dragons. |
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Jul 17 2007, 03:53 PM
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#32
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
Actually, I'm pretty sure that most people are thinking of the canon named Great Dragons. Guys like Lofwyr, Hestaby, Dunklezhan, Alamaise, Ghostwalker, and the Immortal Elves, too, are Ultimate NPCs. They are metaplot characters who, by canon, have no stats. They don't make tests, they don't roll dice, they just win. If you shoot a Lofwyr, adding Edge to your roll, and get an improbable one-million successes on your attack test then Lofwyr gets one-million-and-one successes on his dodge test, automatically. That's just the way it is. The only way one of them gets hurt is if the GM or a sourcebook (or novel) says so. Compared to that, the stats for Great Dragons given in the book are just laughable. They are for the times when GMs want to create a generic Great Dragon character that PCs can potentially kill. They aren't for the big movers and shakers of the official Sixth World. And, to be quite honest, I find it unnecessary to create such a character. One can get by with statted young Adult Dragons for the PCs to fight, such as in the old Bottled Demon adventure. Whether or not dragons should take drain when casting spells is open to debate. Dragon Magic is fundamentally different from human magic and spellcasting is as natural to them as breathing is to us. |
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Jul 17 2007, 03:58 PM
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#33
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
to clear up a few misconceptions:
1) not all dragons are magicians. 2) not all dragons are filthy stinking rich (though i would suppose that many or most of them are at the very least rich, and probably working on becoming filthy stinking rich, this doesn't mean they are all there yet) 3) dragons, once you have them away from all their safeguards and you have the right gear/preparations, *can* be killed. in fact, it's really not all that difficult. however, this is kinda like saying that a team of armed soldiers could have killed sadam hussein at any time... *if* they could get to a point where it's them vs. him with no one else around. except that with dragons, it's more like you're facing an apache or a fighter jet with a lot of protection around it... dragons are smart, scheming creatures, and they are so tough not just because they are powerful directly, but especially because of their indirect power. |
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Jul 17 2007, 04:00 PM
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#34
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,180 Joined: 22-January 07 From: Rochester, NY Member No.: 10,737 |
1. Yes they are; magic is intrinsic to their biology, which is why they all went to sleep for the downcycle. Edit: 3. And during the Yucatan war back in 2061, it took a 6 hour battle, pitting the Azzies against the rebels, to down an adult feathered serpent and an anti-aircraft battery to do the deed. |
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Jul 17 2007, 04:02 PM
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#35
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Moving Target Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 453 Joined: 15-August 02 From: Kansas City, MO Member No.: 3,116 |
Ahem. SR4 page 296...
To be followed with...
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Jul 17 2007, 04:06 PM
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#36
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Moving Target Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 453 Joined: 15-August 02 From: Kansas City, MO Member No.: 3,116 |
Did I mention Hardened Armor of 20+ ? For reference: SR4 page 288...
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Jul 17 2007, 04:25 PM
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#37
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
hmmm... obviously they've changed stuff then, because dragons didn't used to all be magicians before. i can't help wondering if that was intentional or not...
as for your hardened armor 20 nonsense, maybe you should take a closer look at the page you're quoting about dragons all being magicians, because it clearly says hardened armor *8* is standard. sure, if you want to talk about great dragons, then yes they have hardened armor 20. but great dragons are rare, and if you are anywhere near good enough to be able to get a shot off at a great dragon, then you should be packing the kind of weapon that makes 20 hardened armor not significant (for example, an ares citymaster has effectively hardened armor 20... perhaps you think they're indestructible too? i will be shocked if arsenal doesn't introduce something bigger than we have now, and even if it doesn't we already have rockets that, against a greater dragon (should probably treat it as a vehicle for anti-vehicle rocket purposes) will punch through it's hardened armor no problem) |
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Jul 17 2007, 04:29 PM
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#38
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Target Group: Members Posts: 95 Joined: 23-June 07 Member No.: 11,998 |
Sorry, man, dragons have always been magical.
They can't exist without it - it's how they fly, how they breathe, how they communicate. Dragons are highly magical creatures that breathe mana like air, always have been in SR. Doesn't mean they can't be killed - you just have to be careful. |
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Jul 17 2007, 04:32 PM
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#39
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Moving Target Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 453 Joined: 15-August 02 From: Kansas City, MO Member No.: 3,116 |
To make this point even more clear (please accept my apologies), there's no firearm/rocket/missile listed in the basic book that can hurt even a run-of-the-mill Great Dragon in his natural form. Munitions just bounce off.
Will Affect Great Dragon An artifact-level weapon foci: Yes Atomics/WMDs: Yes Chemical/biological agent: Perhaps (body of 25 would be one tough resistance test) Building collapsing upon him: Yes Earth being eaten by Galactus: Yes Will NOT Affect Great Dragon Small arms: No Heavy weapons: No Fighter aircraft: No Most powerful missile/rocket listed in game: No, but getting closer |
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Jul 17 2007, 04:35 PM
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#40
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Moving Target Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 453 Joined: 15-August 02 From: Kansas City, MO Member No.: 3,116 |
Um, dude, we ARE talking about Great Dragons. |
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Jul 17 2007, 04:36 PM
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#41
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
the most powerful rocket in the book can go through 22 points of hardened armor, assuming 0 successes (note: 0 successes isn't possible while still hitting).
as far as dragons always being magical, that is true. but they weren't always all magicians, as i recall. you can be magical without being a magician. |
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Jul 17 2007, 04:39 PM
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#42
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
observe the question:
dragons. not great dragons. certainly not the great dragons that are greater than normal great dragons. just dragons. with no qualifications.
and besides, like i said, great dragons can still be hurt by an anti-vehicle missile or rocket. |
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Jul 17 2007, 04:40 PM
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#43
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
They always had the Sorcery Power. The Magician Quality wasn't even invented until SR4, in which it replaces the Sorcery Power.
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Jul 17 2007, 04:41 PM
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#44
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
They always had lackeys. Today, it's worse - the got lawyers. |
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Jul 17 2007, 04:42 PM
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#45
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Moving Target Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 453 Joined: 15-August 02 From: Kansas City, MO Member No.: 3,116 |
My memory isn't good, either, but at least I have the PDFs handy. =) Regarding Greats specifically, it says: SR3 page 268...
Doesn't say this in regard to non-greats, though. In fact, under Powers Observed in Individuals it lists "Magical Skills," so I think you're correct... it's a change that all dragons are magicians. |
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Jul 17 2007, 04:44 PM
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#46
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Moving Target Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 453 Joined: 15-August 02 From: Kansas City, MO Member No.: 3,116 |
Common Powers from SR3, page 268:
So, non-greats aren't all magicians. |
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Jul 17 2007, 04:46 PM
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#47
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CosaNostra Deliverator Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 346 Joined: 29-January 05 From: Philadelphia, PA Member No.: 7,034 |
The Native American Nations books are dated and some of the information in them is just crazy (like the population figures). Shadows of North America is more recent and gives more reasonable population numbers. |
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Jul 17 2007, 05:04 PM
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#48
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Moving Target Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 453 Joined: 15-August 02 From: Kansas City, MO Member No.: 3,116 |
In my posts I've only been referring to the dragons that we've all been talking about here: Greats. And I said that explicitly from the beginning. I didn't think there was much point in talking about whether a group of runners could take out a hatchling or a juvenile. Was I wrong there? ;) The deadliest weapon I can find in the book is the Anti-Vehcile Rocket at 16P. Are you seeing something I'm not? That's a lot of net hits. =) Remember, AP doesn't matter until the resistance roll. Speaking of which, I'll take a 25 Body against a 16P missile any old day. |
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Jul 17 2007, 05:16 PM
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#49
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
yes, you forgot the AP. now granted, i would want a *lot* of missiles if i was planning on facing a great dragon, if those were the best missiles i could get (i suspect arsenal will have better). however, it *does* penetrate up to 22 points of hardened armor to the point where it is at least possible to damage the dragon (although, considering the dragon is going to be throwing a *lot* of dice on the damage resistance test, it will be hard to do a significant amount of damage). of course, a much more effective tactic would be to just bust out the gas grenades, i suppose, which ignore armor (hardened or otherwise) and could have some remarkably unpleasant effects on a dragon who happens to be flying... (seven-7 or neuro-stun would be the top choices, i think... seven-7 would actually cause the dragon to fall if it was flying, in my opinion, and is probably the more scary of the two in the end) |
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Jul 17 2007, 05:31 PM
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#50
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Moving Target Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 453 Joined: 15-August 02 From: Kansas City, MO Member No.: 3,116 |
Pretty sure you have this wrong. AP only matters for the damage resistance test, as I stated. Not for determining if it exceeds Hardened Armor. SR4 pg 152...
As I pointed out earlier, unlesss the modified DV exceeds the Hardened Armor rating, there is no resistance test. So the AP is meaningless with regard to beating the effect of Hardened Armor. |
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