 The art of shadowrunning, from the perspective of a D&D vet |
  |
 Jul 17 2007, 05:42 PM
Post
#51
|
|||||||
|
Target  Group: Members Posts: 45 Joined: 28-June 07 Member No.: 12,075  |
That is assuming that they even have the same biology - something that I would not. I don't remember if there is any canon mention of dragon biology (great or otherwise). Personally I doubt if I would ever allow players to go up directly against a dragon. That being said, it would make an absolutely wicked campaign to have the players get caught in the middle between two warring dragons. |
||||||
 |
 
|
||||||
|
Jul 17 2007, 05:45 PM
Post
#52
|
|||
|
Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
Hell yeah! You could name it: Survival of the Fittest. :D |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jul 17 2007, 05:45 PM
Post
#53
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 453 Joined: 15-August 02 From: Kansas City, MO Member No.: 3,116 |
I thought it was called Survival of the Fittest, though I've never played it. Am I wrong there? Edit: Doh! Moon beat me to it. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jul 17 2007, 05:51 PM
Post
#54
|
|||
|
Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
I am a smart-ass ninja. 8) |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jul 17 2007, 05:53 PM
Post
#55
|
|
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,311 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Calgary, Alberta Member No.: 2,062 |
Point 1: Everybody chill a little, okay? All this arguing is going to make Baby Mike cry.
Point the Second: Gas? Flying creature? Can you say difficult to deliver? Although now that I'm thinking of it, a serious set of powerlines, what with their half impact armor might be the choice of the day. Point C: Bigger rockets? Shit, lets get something that has a damage code that says something like, oh, 24PN. (The N stand either for Naval or No, you can't have a resistance test.) I mean, since we're talking about killing a Great and all. As for non-greats: Doable, but all the planets have to align in just the right way, and the team doing has to really know their job. Big, nasty critters. |
|
|
|
|
Jul 17 2007, 05:56 PM
Post
#56
|
|||||
|
Target Group: Members Posts: 45 Joined: 28-June 07 Member No.: 12,075 |
I knew I was forgetting something. In any case, another dragon would know the strengths/weaknesses of their own biology, so the players could get their "anti-dragon" gas there, or something. Of course, the dragon who gave it to them might have thm all fitted with cranial bombs (or something sufficiently nasty) to make sure they don't use it on HIM. |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Jul 17 2007, 06:05 PM
Post
#57
|
|||
|
The Dragon Never Sleeps Group: Admin Posts: 6,924 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,667 |
Down this path lies madness... or SR5. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jul 17 2007, 06:06 PM
Post
#58
|
|
|
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
you know, toxins can be toxic to all sorts of creatures without needing to be tailored to them.
i mean, just because humans are not the prey of a poisonous snake, doesn't mean that a bite from such a snake has no effect. similarly, just because seven-7 isn't specifically optimised to affect a great dragon, doesn't mean it won't effect a great dragon. anyways, as far as delivery, you can use a gas grenade with an airburst link, or you can wirelessly 'detonate' it. and remember, a gas grenade fills a 20 meter diameter with the gas (for all you non-metric uses, that's about 66 feet across). you don't exactly need to hit dead on... |
|
|
|
|
Jul 17 2007, 06:07 PM
Post
#59
|
|||||
|
Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...I hate that module. Forced me to retire three really neat characters. :grr: |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Jul 17 2007, 06:11 PM
Post
#60
|
|||||||||||
|
Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Sigh. Misconceptions abound.
This is hogwash. Here's the original quote:
The reinterpretation of that is that easterns, westerns, feathered serpents, and sirrush are all magicians, while gorgons, wyverns, and such-like are not. But it was pretty clear at the time of original publication that there were western dragons that were not magicians. It was only later with the publication of "bruiser" dracoforms that the basic dragons were reinvisioned as all being spellcasters. ---
This is contrary to the rules, and therefore wrong.
Yes, you can kill a great dragon with a sniper rifle or three. All you have to do is know where he is and gun him down. A called shot from a sniper rifle firing AP rounds is a base 12P with -7 AP. Throw down any amount of net hits and you're sailing through the hardened armor. Those 38 damage resistance dice are nice - but they aren't enough to stop all the damage. Get a surprise round in on it and a few samurai can cut it down before it can act (all 21 physical damage boxes). ---
Except the PCC and the CFS, which ar bug-nuts. -Frank |
||||||||||
|
|
|
||||||||||
|
Jul 17 2007, 06:14 PM
Post
#61
|
|
|
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
out of curiosity, anyone familiar with ED around who can tell us if ED dragons are all magicians?
|
|
|
|
|
Jul 17 2007, 06:17 PM
Post
#62
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 453 Joined: 15-August 02 From: Kansas City, MO Member No.: 3,116 |
This is absolutely the case. There is a critter power called Immunity and Dragons don't have it. =) In the absence of Immunity (Toxins) all bets are off. Hey, it worked for Carl Denham. ;) Note: Seems strange that dragons don't have a toxin immunity, since even Devil Rats are immune to Sevin-7. But it's all been thought through, I'm sure. They didn't have it in the last edition, either. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jul 17 2007, 06:25 PM
Post
#63
|
|
|
Target Group: Members Posts: 45 Joined: 28-June 07 Member No.: 12,075 |
Yes, toxins meant for rodents/other animals WILL work on humans - but only because the affected organisms all developed in the same (general) environment
I just don't remember it ever being stated that dragons evolved on this planet. I mean, who is to say they aren't based a completely different evolutionary branch. There's no guarantee that they would be susceptible to the same chemicals. That being said, I agree with Frank - blunt trauma doesn't care much for biochemistry. |
|
|
|
|
Jul 17 2007, 06:26 PM
Post
#64
|
|||||
|
Moving Target Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 453 Joined: 15-August 02 From: Kansas City, MO Member No.: 3,116 |
Hey, thanks! =) I can't even read my own rules quotes. Jaid was correct on the AP mattering for the Hardening. However, the Fragmentation Rocket 16P/-2 still doesn't get around the Hardened Armor of 20+ without net successes and a direct hit. The DV goes down -4 per meter off target, so make sure you hit dead on. And even then, the thing is going to resist the damage. |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Jul 17 2007, 06:32 PM
Post
#65
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 453 Joined: 15-August 02 From: Kansas City, MO Member No.: 3,116 |
Dude, so all these samurais are just sitting around near the Great Dragon waiting for the sniper to hit it? Get out! This scenario is ridiculous. It's not like you're going to just run into a Great Dragon in the middle of nowhere in a flat white plain sitting there alone, flatfooted, bound, and with all senses off. That's not what we're talking about. In the "real world" (did I just say that?) Great Dragons are impossible to kill. Ask the Azzies. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jul 17 2007, 06:38 PM
Post
#66
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 472 Joined: 14-June 07 Member No.: 11,909 |
Wasn't there some Great Dragon in Germany who got shot down by Jet-Fighters? Granted, it's the wacky German Alliance that looks like a miniature clown-version of the former USA, but on the other hand, Ghostwalker's entrance in SR-History also was when it touched bottom and could have been handled much better than by the big-brute-conqueror-approach.
|
|
|
|
|
Jul 17 2007, 06:46 PM
Post
#67
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 453 Joined: 15-August 02 From: Kansas City, MO Member No.: 3,116 |
You might be talking about Nachmeister, who was killed by Lofwyr. See here. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jul 17 2007, 06:51 PM
Post
#68
|
|
|
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
Great Dragons aren't impossible to kill. Dunkelzahn managed to kill himself and only take a small chunk of the city. :)
|
|
|
|
|
Jul 17 2007, 06:54 PM
Post
#69
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 472 Joined: 14-June 07 Member No.: 11,909 |
No, I do remember people talking about another Great Dragon who got shot down by Jet-Fighters of the former 'Bundeswehr', though I don't really remember its name (the German Alliance and its source-books never really did interest me). Though perhaps it may also only have been a normal Dragon, possibly.
|
|
|
|
|
Jul 17 2007, 06:59 PM
Post
#70
|
|||||
|
Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
I love you too, man. (But I am on crack! ) ;) :D
Which brings us back to what I said at the very beginning - dragons don't survive because they're super-powered, they survive because they have vast cunning and a complete lack of all this mammalian morality. And if this is so of great dragons, then it is more so of the vastly larger proportion of dragonkind that are non-great. Dragons are lethal. Dragons are nasty. But they're not the staggering, bulldoze through anything monsters of D&D. |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Jul 17 2007, 07:01 PM
Post
#71
|
|
|
Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...a couple things to remember before grabbing your Ranger Arms SM4 & going Great Dragon sniping...
Because of their unique natures, dragons should always be considered Prime Runner characters (see p. 276), and generally rate as Superhuman Prime Runners, or even higher. (Core Book PP. 295-296) Notes: All dragons have the Magician quality and know most spells. (Core Book P. 296) Skills: Conjuring 8, Flight 6, Sorcery 10 Additional Innate Powers: Hardened Armor (+12), Metahuman Form, Mystic Armor (+12), Twist Fate Twist Fate: (Core Book P. 297) Great dragons have the innate magical power to influence the whims of fate with nothing more than their tremendous willpower. This power gives great dragons some influence over the use of Edge. In addition to the normal uses of Edge, great dragons can use Twist Fate for the following effects: • The great dragon may spend a point of Edge to negate the use of Edge by any other creature it can see. The effects of the Edge point are canceled, but the point is still expended. Using Edge this way is a Free Action. Dragons cannot negate the permanent burning of Edge. • The great dragon can spend a point from its Edge to immediately force a creature in its line of sight to re-roll any dice that score a hit. Failed dice are not re-rolled. The target keeps the new result. This is a Simple Action for the dragon. The target may spend a point of Edge to resist this effect. • Finally, a great dragon using Twist Fate can take points from its own Edge and give them to other characters in the dragon’s line of sight. This can even increase a recipient’s Edge above its normal full level, but these additional Edge points do not refresh. (In other words, use them or lose them.) Once expended, these points return to the dragon that granted them. [meaning he can grant additional Edge to his flunkies who will usually be doing the fighting for him] This is just part of why they are so bloody hard to deal with. |
|
|
|
|
Jul 17 2007, 07:08 PM
Post
#72
|
|
|
Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Actually, quoting the Dragon's twist fate brings up a very important part of why dragons aren't all that: using Twist Fate is an action. That means that if you get the drop on it (easy enough to do if the dragon ever goes outside), the dragon can't use twist fate.
Twist fate can be used during the dragon's own attacks to negate you attempting to spend edge to defend yourself, but it can't use it to keep you from edging up a reroll on your attack to its eyeball. Eggshells with hammers on every level. A great dragon is a pop-star athlete who travels with a secret itinerary and never leaves his flying armored car - but that doesn't mean you can't kill it. -Frank |
|
|
|
|
Jul 17 2007, 07:15 PM
Post
#73
|
|||
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,311 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Calgary, Alberta Member No.: 2,062 |
That looks like the Ancient History Symbol flashing in the sky! |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jul 17 2007, 07:20 PM
Post
#74
|
|||
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,288 Joined: 4-September 06 From: The Scandinavian Federation Member No.: 9,300 |
AP doesen't matter until the resistance roll? Where did you get that from? As far as I can see AP adjusts the targets armor rating, and it is the modified armor rating that is compared to the modifed damage value to determine wether a weapon can hurt a spirit or not or wether a weapon causes physical or stun damage because of armor. 25 body vs 16 damage means on average 8 hits, thus the still the dragon takes 8 damage after soak (if you ignore armor). The armor will help of course, but alot it will be gone after AP. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jul 17 2007, 07:35 PM
Post
#75
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 472 Joined: 14-June 07 Member No.: 11,909 |
FrankTrollman already clarified on coolgrafix' misconception regarding the damage resistance test, and coolgrafix did acknowledge having been wrong on this.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: 3rd January 2025 - 12:41 AM |
Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.