 The art of shadowrunning, from the perspective of a D&D vet |
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 Jul 17 2007, 08:03 PM
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#76
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Moving Target  Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 453 Joined: 15-August 02 From: Kansas City, MO Member No.: 3,116  |
It seems that "selected reading syndrome" affects us all. =) |
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Jul 17 2007, 08:06 PM
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#77
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Moving Target Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 453 Joined: 15-August 02 From: Kansas City, MO Member No.: 3,116 |
Only one of those three uses is a Simple Action. |
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Jul 17 2007, 08:09 PM
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#78
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Moving Target Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 453 Joined: 15-August 02 From: Kansas City, MO Member No.: 3,116 |
When something other than another Great Dragon or a tactical nuke takes out a Great Dragon in canon, you let me know. =) In the meantime, have fun sneaking your team into the lair. ;) |
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Jul 17 2007, 08:13 PM
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#79
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Target Group: Members Posts: 95 Joined: 23-June 07 Member No.: 11,998 |
This is, perhaps, the most important thing to understand about our scaly overlords. Dragon thoughts are alien, different from mammilian thought entirely. Their beleifs, morals, ethics and ideaologies are unknown, as is their true capacity for what we would consider morally "evil" or "wrong". We have strictures against killing our young, against cannibalism, child abandonment and many other practices that reptiles in the natural world engage in as regular forms of behavior. Who is to say what dragons are capable of? Remember, immortality breeds evil - the longer you live, the less you care about the niceties (To a point, and yes, it's a generalization. Not all immortal beings have to be evil, but come on, this is a dystopian future - Absolute power corrupting absolutely and all that). |
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Jul 17 2007, 08:49 PM
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#80
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
Excuse, me. They have the Magical Skills Power, not the Sorcery Power. However, the fact that it is "observed in individuals" doesn't mean that not every dragon has it. It just means that individuals have been observed using it. All of the fluff about dragons has stated that spellcasting is something that they learn to do when they first hatch, that it is as natural to them as breathing.
Dzitbalchen was ritually executed (sacrificed) by Aztlan. World governments can stand against dragons; at least the big ones can, piddly little Middle Eastern poop-pits, not so much. But, dragons have more than their stats. They have layer upon layer of magical defenses, as well. At least, the smart ones do. Alamaise would have been roasted in Night's Pawn if he hadn't had the presence of mind to take his Bat Anti-Anti-Vehicular-Laser Pill. (Of course, Almaise doesn't count because he is an Ultimate NPC)
Dragons care for their young, for the most part. They're not above eating other dragons' children, however. This is especially true of half-metahuman children. Thermail committed suicide by impaling herself on a rather sharp mountain peak after her hatchings were, mutilated, by a depraved dragonkin magician whom she had befriended. |
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Jul 17 2007, 09:05 PM
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#81
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...getting the drop on a GD, easy? Maybe if I had a 300 karma character with maxed out Reaction (9). Of course, the GD has a Reaction of 11 (if he's a Western) and no doubt will have either a Detect Enemies or Combat Sense spell on a Force 6 sustaining focus. Even if the character did manage to sneak up and tag him he rolls 35d (- any for AP from the weapon/ammo) for his soak roll With a damage track of 16 it will take more than one shot to bring him down. OK so he's wounded (barely), but now it's his turn... Of course this is based on the generic GD in the Critter section. Like PCs and major NPCs I am certain the GD "personalities" will be much tougher than this to deal with. In short, my PC might have an outside chance, one about as good as bringing down a T-Bird with a with a tennis ball in one throw. As to the re-roll of the failed Edge attempt, this does not necessarily guarantee success. If the GD chooses to use his Twist Fate after the PC applies all her Edge for that action (I don't see why he wouldn't since it is a free action), that means all hits, including those gained through the use of Edge, are negated. It is conceivable that a PC could use up her entire edge for that one "lucky shot" re-rolling failures only to have it totally wasted, while the GD only needs to spend one of his. [Note: I do not allow a PC to re-roll failures unless she gets at least one hit on the initial test (similar to the old Karma Pool rules). This also goes for NPCs.] As you mention, GDs are rather smart (Logic/Intuition of 13) and don't usually take unnecessary risks. True, any living thing can be killed, given a big enough hammer is used (in this case a Thor Shot, railway tank car size FAE, or focused solar beam from space - forget any spells unless you want your mage go *poof* from overcasting) There's a reason the GD is on top of the Food Chain. Mind you I generally do not like GDs (or IE's for that matter) and rarely if ever use them in my campaigns outside of maybe a passing reference. I have dealt with them as a PC and usually that resulted in sending them to the Home for Retired Runners. |
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Jul 17 2007, 09:14 PM
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#82
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Moving Target Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 453 Joined: 15-August 02 From: Kansas City, MO Member No.: 3,116 |
Do you have a source for this? I don't think Dzitbalchen or his sibling are confirmed Greats. |
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Jul 17 2007, 09:16 PM
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#83
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234 |
We ended up having to kill a little dragon once, used AVRs. IIRC, we went through 6 before he croaked, and he manballed one PC DEAD, another just gravely injured. (we were very spread out) I think someone did minor damage to the dragon with a spell also. The Armor spell the dragon had kind of sucked, as I think it gave him effectively 16 points of hardened armor. I was kind of bummed how my cranked up steel lynxes LMGs with APDS just shredded the building he was in but didn't do anything to him at all. But he did make a fine rug. |
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Jul 17 2007, 09:28 PM
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#84
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Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
And there it is in a nutshell. Why do we need to resort to thor shots or focused solar beams from space? A great dragon is protected by informants, spies, hackers, spirits, divinations and revenge arrangements. These are just as effective against a plot to assasinate by Thor shot as they are against a plot to assasinate by sniper rifles, rocket attacks and planted bombs. In fact given the logisitcs of these super methods, whether it's the level of people involved or the heavy munitions that need to be sourced, these sorts of attacks should actually be easier to get advanced warning of than the handful of unknown dragon-haters who get some surplus military gear and lie in wait. But both the Thor shots and the home made bomb are capable of killing the dragon. What makes the difference is not firepower, but getting the drop on the dragon. So why start pretending that dragons are indestructable short of concerted efforts by megacorps? The original question was about dragons. To bring great dragons into the equation makes as much sense as to talk about humans and then bring mages into it. They're one in a thousand and are such a different area that they need to be treated as a separate issue. |
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Jul 17 2007, 09:31 PM
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#85
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Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
A hardened armour spell? :eek: The ultimate rug, though! :rotfl: |
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Jul 17 2007, 09:42 PM
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#86
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Moving Target Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 453 Joined: 15-August 02 From: Kansas City, MO Member No.: 3,116 |
It began like this...
And a better analogy would be: "When asked about humanity, why bring up the strongest and best among us?" Because the strongest and best are illustrative of the ideal. |
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Jul 17 2007, 11:17 PM
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#87
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
Runner Havens. I don't believe that he was a Great, but either way it does set a precedent. |
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Jul 17 2007, 11:44 PM
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#88
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Moving Target Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 453 Joined: 15-August 02 From: Kansas City, MO Member No.: 3,116 |
Got it... Runner Havens pg 125...
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Jul 18 2007, 12:24 AM
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#89
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
i believe there is also a great dragon that was (possibly) killed in the SOX.
the kill was never confirmed, iirc, and no body was found, but i do recall that the great dragon was at least defeated. (think the reference is in dragons of the sixth world). (ah, got it... love those ancient files! Feuerschwinge is the dragon i was thinking of, and the kill was not confirmed) |
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Jul 18 2007, 01:42 AM
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#90
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 314 Joined: 25-February 06 Member No.: 8,307 |
Caveat: All answers are from a GM perspective, and will vary. Here's my take: Welocome to DS! You may want to refill your Valium and Prozac, and if you smoke, by a carton before you settle in to read the forums. Tray table locked, and seat back upright? Here we go! 1) Dragons are similar in that they're conniving, mysterious and very powerful. Dragons have their own hidden agenda, and tend to remain elusive and discrete. Yes they are dangerous, even more so in that they have a lot more lackeys and co-conspirators available. More info in Dragons of the 6th World (good source material, still suitable for 4E) 2) Street Magic is vital unless you want to downplay magic. Any of the Target:wherever books are good for info on those locations. While many of the plot lines in Threats are null, the ideas and insight are still useful. 3) Matrix is completely virtual. There is no overlay, and given the proper software, it can look like whatever you want. Example, in the matrix, Lone Star's HQ looks like a big gold star, but if you have a powerful enough filter it can look like a wooded meadow, arusty star, or a bucket of dead fish. Astral is the real world, just a different way of seeing it. A wall in the physical will be a wall in the astral. The main difference is that the light comes from living things and their auras (including the Earth). Purely fabricated things, like a computer, look like a dark shape with no emotional or living contect. Emotions can leave a recognizable residue in astral space. 4) Corporate law on corporate territory, local law everywhere else. It's not a simple tier, think of international law now. 5) There have been very few references, but most religions exist as they do today, and have factions that embrace/resist the virtues of magic/technology. Go with your own comfort level. 6) Yes, but cyberdecks are slower than technomancers and full VR, and I'm assuming a bit quicker than AR. AR vs VR is a hot topic, and should be addressed in Emergence... A deck is just an interface tool. It is a little slower, but if it can run current software, it should battle IC and surf as well as a comm. |
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Jul 19 2007, 04:21 AM
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#91
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Target Group: Members Posts: 30 Joined: 28-August 06 Member No.: 9,240 |
Jaid, i don't know much about ED but i do have most of the books for it. in Earthdawn Dragons it says "Dragons are born with certain insights and abilities that take Name-giver magicians years to learn." so yes, in earthdawn ALL dragons can use magic. oh and Dragons CAN become Great Dragons, it just takes about 2000 years from when they become an adult. it will take a Dragon about 2310 years from hatching to become a Great Dragon and only about 1 in 4 survive that long.
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Jul 19 2007, 03:05 PM
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#92
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Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
So I guess mana-cycle down-time doesn't count towards that. |
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Jul 19 2007, 11:27 PM
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#93
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,677 Joined: 5-June 03 Member No.: 4,689 |
In downtime, the dragons are understood to have been hibernating -- no learning experience. Maybe the low levels of mana also negated physical growth?
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Jul 20 2007, 01:29 AM
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#94
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 615 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,895 |
A couple of notes: Dragons = Magician.
Dragons = Magician Sapience: Awakened Sapient crittres are cpable of all magical tasks and follow the same rules for magic as normal characters. Dragon can intitate, learn meta-magic, or do anything (and then some) players can. So SR4 all dragons ARE magicians ... now I house rule they can also be adepts (since I like the thought of phys ad dragons and or mystic adept dragons). ------------ For the evil though and the sniper rifle == dead dragon... Poession based dragon :-) Immunity Normal weapons = gain armor equal to twice its magic ... treated as hardned. (not gets hardned armor), All examples I have seen allow this to stack with other armor (spells, actual worn, etc)... nothing canon prevents this from stacking with actual hardned armor (and presumably would). So Western Dragon Possesion style: Hardned armor 8 Magic average (9). Force 9 (stun drain) spirit riding the host. (channelling naturally for dragon). So Hardened armor = 8 + 9*2 = 26 :-) (versus non-magic weapons) Body equals: 24 Damage resistance = 60 dice Yummy (edit fixed quote code) |
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Jul 20 2007, 01:36 AM
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#95
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 472 Joined: 14-June 07 Member No.: 11,909 |
And of course, dragons who are all so proud of being the masters of course wouldn't mind to let a mighty spirit control their formidable body and do whatever these things wish to do, right? ;)
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Jul 20 2007, 01:49 AM
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#96
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
Isn't that what channeling is for? Personally, I'd never let possession and hardened armor stack. Not only does it make dragons even more indestructible, but as soon as Arsenal comes along and gives us hardened personal armor it'll make PCs nigh indestructible as well. |
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Jul 20 2007, 04:17 AM
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#97
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Target Group: Members Posts: 3 Joined: 4-December 06 Member No.: 10,198 |
In DRagons of the sixth world Wyrm Watcher posed the theory that when a dragon sleeps part of it remain active and that includes hibernation. he goes on to theorize that dragons learn while sleeping which explains how they we abel to seemingly seemlessly move from hibernation into the sixth world. |
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Jul 20 2007, 05:29 AM
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#98
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,677 Joined: 5-June 03 Member No.: 4,689 |
And yet we are faced with the time differential mentioned earlier.
Maybe that learning is just a decimal or so slower? That could allow for enough familiarity that the pickup should be straightforward enough once awake; but at the same time keep every hibernating dragon from becoming great during the downtime. |
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Jul 20 2007, 07:10 AM
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#99
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Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
"Sleep learning" takes away from my two favourite examples of dragon brilliance - when Dunklezahn awoke, he very quickly gave a media interview not only grasping the essential principles of the thing, but demanding a substantial percentage of all derived profits. That shows not only a superhuman degree of confidence and surety on emerging into a new world, but also a dazzling level of quick thinking. And Lofwyr? Even better - awaking and finding himself encircled by the German army, this creature talks his way past the perimeter. No violence, no "Me Dragon - ROARR!" He just blags, bluffs and smooths his way through the armed forces. Both those examples show how Dunk and Loffy put the great in great dragon, imo. |
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Jul 20 2007, 07:33 AM
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#100
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
I've never been a big dracophile (precisely because a guy I used to game with IRL is, up to and including his gay furry dragon netsex that he'd try to tell us all about) so maybe it's somewhere real obvious and I've just never bothered to read it... but where's that written, about Lofwyr and his awakening? I'm a big fan of bastards, and I've been considering one of my characters being a Lofwyr fanboy (so I need to study up).
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