Ritual magic and astral barriers

Ritual magic and astral barriers, Do they matter?

DireRadiant View Member Profile	Jul 23 2007, 04:30 PM Post #51
The Dragon Never Sleeps Group: Admin Posts: 6,924 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,667	The SR3 concepts of Indirect, Direct, and Physical Manipulations path to the target are no longer relevant to SR4. Given that the Ritual Spellcasting normally requires a spotter to be assensing the target, it's not unreasonable to me that Symbolic Link replaces this requirement and in all other ways the Ritual Spellcasting works the same.

Vaevictis

Jul 23 2007, 04:36 PM

Post #52

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QUOTE (DireRadiant @ Jul 23 2007, 11:30 AM)

The SR3 concepts of Indirect, Direct, and Physical Manipulations path to the target are no longer relevant to SR4.

Uh.

SR4.196

QUOTE

Indirect Combat Spells: Indirect Combat Spells are treated like ranged combat attacks...

Not relevant? That sounds like a rule-set incorporation by reference.

DireRadiant

Jul 23 2007, 05:02 PM

Post #53

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QUOTE (Vaevictis)

QUOTE (DireRadiant @ Jul 23 2007, 11:30 AM)

The SR3 concepts of Indirect, Direct, and Physical Manipulations path to the target are no longer relevant to SR4.

Uh.

SR4.196

QUOTE

Indirect Combat Spells: Indirect Combat Spells are treated like ranged combat attacks...

Not relevant? That sounds like a rule-set incorporation by reference.

I was primarily referring to the old mirrors and glass effects from SR3.

The ranged combat modifiers are in the SR4 rules so they apply.

Eleazar

Jul 23 2007, 05:54 PM

Post #54

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QUOTE (Vaevictis)

Here's a thought that occurred to me:

1. With normal spellcasting, your "cast" travels along a path in space, hence is subject to barriers in space.
2. According to Frank's interpretation, with ritual spellcasting, your "cast" does not travel along a path in space, and hence is not subject to barriers in space.

#2 sounds an awful lot like teleportation to me...

Casting is all about manipulating mana into energy and forming a spell. Instead of doing this locally to your position, your are doing this locally to the position of the link. All that is changing is the location where you are manipulating the mana. I think for ease of use rules, I would have to disagree with Frank. I don't understand why the developers would choose to have ritual magic and normal spellcasting work so differently. I do agree with him that the spell is formed exactly at the location of the target and does not do some absurd traveling to whatever the link/spotter is. Since the mana the mage is manipulating is behind a ward or an area with background count, the spell is affected. Since that mana you are using for the spell is behind a ward, you have to push through the ward in order to access it. This only stands for wards that fully encompass the target. Also since any mana you would be using to form the spell would be of whatever background count, at the targets location, the spell would be affected by that background count.

Now, if your stance is that the mana comes from where the mage is casting the spell, then I must ask this, how does it get from point A to point B? Oddly enough, I think ritual magic is actually affected by the background count of the area the ritual casters are located. Could someone confirm this?

Vaevictis

Jul 23 2007, 06:01 PM

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QUOTE (Eleazar)

Now, if your stance is that the mana comes from where the mage is casting the spell, then I must ask this, how does it get from point A to point B?

By traveling through space.

In the case of a line of sight spell, it travels through the line of sight.

In the case of touch, it travels through the touch.

In the case of ritual magic that doesn't require LOS, it travels through space by the path of least resistance over any path it is capable of traveling.

Ravor View Member Profile	Jul 23 2007, 06:02 PM Post #56
Cybernetic Blood Mage Group: Members Posts: 3,472 Joined: 11-March 06 From: Northeastern Wyoming Member No.: 8,361	So does that mean that you have ritually cast flamedarts flying all over the place dodging walls, ect? *Edit* And more importantly, how does that work without breaking the "Magic can not make choises" rule?

Vaevictis

Jul 23 2007, 06:10 PM

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QUOTE (Ravor)

So does that mean that you have ritually cast flamedarts flying all over the place dodging walls, ect?

Doesn't seem right does it?

But then, IMO, neither does dodging a spell that has no trajectory.

QUOTE

And more importantly, how does that work without breaking the "Magic can not make choises" rule?

Well, that's pretty easy -- path of least resistance. When water flows downhill through the path of least resistance, is it making choices?

FrankTrollman View Member Profile	Jul 23 2007, 07:20 PM Post #58
Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665	This is time for an important qualifier on this discussion. The spell Flame Thrower isn't normally affected in any way by being cast through a warded area. It's a purely physical spell and does not allow targets to make a Spell Resistance roll, so at no time does it matter if the target is behind a mana barrier (any more than it would matter if the target had a super huge Object Resistance). A Flame Thrower normally goes from point A to point B resolved as a ranged attack, and thereafter if it hits does actual fire damage which is then resisted as damage is normally resisted. Effects which add to spell resistance don't apply at all, though as listed on page 196 characters who are benefitting from Counterspelling get to add said Counterspelling to their Damage Resistance. So the reason I keep bringing physical barriers into this discussion is because those are in fact the only thing that Flame Thrower is normally impeded by if it uses its normal LOS qualifications. --- So the question is: why would Flame Thrower be affected in any way by a mana barrier when ritually cast if it isn't affected when normally cast? So once we've established that Flame Thrower can go from the caster through the link to the target and not get blocked by any obstructions (whether made of pure willpower or concrete), then we can have the second discussion of whether Mana Bolt bypasses a Mana Barrier. Remember: when there's a mana barrier and a concrete barrier, the Flame Thrower spell only checks the concrete barrier. If we can agree that it doesn't check that barrier if cast without LOS, then it seems like a slam dunk that Mana Bolt ignores the Mana Barrier... -Frank

Vaevictis

Jul 23 2007, 07:29 PM

Post #59

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QUOTE (FrankTrollman)

So the question is: why would Flame Thrower be affected in any way by a mana barrier when ritually cast if it isn't affected when normally cast?

Let's start by establishing that Flame Thrower isn't affected by a mana barrier when normally cast, please?

FrankTrollman

Jul 23 2007, 07:34 PM

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QUOTE (Vaevictis)

QUOTE (FrankTrollman @ Jul 23 2007, 02:20 PM)

So the question is: why would Flame Thrower be affected in any way by a mana barrier when ritually cast if it isn't affected when normally cast?

Let's start by establishing that Flame Thrower isn't affected by a mana barrier when normally cast, please?

No problem.

When you cast a spell through a Mana Barrier, you add the rating of the barrier to the target's resistance roll (SR4, p. 185).
When you cast an Indirect Combat Spell, it is resolved as a ranged attack, causing your target to make a Defense Roll instead of a Resistance Roll (SR4, p. 196).

So the bonus from the ward, whether you get it or not, doesn't actually do anything. It adds to a dice pool that you don't roll. It is no more helpful than your +2 dice from a Smartlink or Vehicle Control Rig.

-Frank

Vaevictis View Member Profile	Jul 23 2007, 07:39 PM Post #61
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 530 Joined: 11-June 05 Member No.: 7,441	Ah, but the target does get a resistance roll: 1. "If the spell hits, the target resist with Body + half Impact armor (+Counterspelling, if available)..." (sr4.196) 2. "Should a magician try to cast a spell through a barrier, the target of the spell adds the Force of the barrier to its resistance dice pool." (sr4.185) I need convincing that the first pool of dice referenced is not added to by the mana barrier as in 2. EDIT: I think that you are trying to say that there is a special class of pool that a spell is normally resisted with that mana barriers add to (and it is this class that mana barriers add to exclusively), and that Indirect combat spells don't use this special class of pool. In SR3, as I recall, this was true. In SR4, I am not sure.

Kyoto Kid

Jul 23 2007, 08:02 PM

Post #62

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QUOTE (toturi)

QUOTE (Fortune @ Jul 22 2007, 03:42 AM)

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...nah that will happen when:

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...at that precise moment, the comet hits the earth just south of Skokie

FrankTrollman View Member Profile	Jul 23 2007, 08:05 PM Post #63
Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665	Spell Resistance =/= Damage Resistance. Object Resistance can sub in for a Resistance Roll. Passing a spell through a Mana Barrier adds to a Resistance roll. Counterspelling adds to a Resistance Roll. --- But Damage Resistance is a whole different animal. As per page 196, that's all you get if your Defense Roll fails. On page 174 it specifies that objects still get their Armor against Indirect Combat Spells (during Damage Resistance), though they don't get their Object Resistance threshold. On page 196 it specifies that Counterspelling adds to Damage Resistance against Indirect Combat Spells (which allows it to do anything, since it normally adds to a roll that the target isn't making). But you know what? Mana Barriers don't ever say that they add to Damage Resistance against anything. They add to "Resistance Rolls" and targets of Indirect Combat spells don't make those checks. Period. The Resistance Test is defined on page 173. The Defense Test is detailed on page 150. They are not the same test. -Frank

Talia Invierno

Jul 23 2007, 08:30 PM

Post #64

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Spell resistance test:

QUOTE

Step 5: Determine Effect

... Spells cast on living or magic targets are often resisted, and an Opposed Test is required. For area spells, the magician rolls only once, and each target resists the spell separately. The target resists physical spells with Body and mana spells with Willpower. If the target is also protected by Counterspelling (p.175), she may add Counterspelling dice to this resistance test. If the target of a spell is on the other side of an astral barrier (see p.185), dice equal to the Force of that barrier are added to the target's resistance test.

The question is still what constitutes "on the other side".

Tarantula: sorry, must have missed it. (You'll notice that I've not been posting frequently today.) I'll look for it specifically later.

Vaevictis View Member Profile	Jul 23 2007, 08:37 PM Post #65
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 530 Joined: 11-June 05 Member No.: 7,441	Okay, but see, here's where my confusion comes in. 1. Direct combat spells get a "spell resistance test." 2. Indirect combat spells get a "damage resistance test." (in addition to the opposed reaction roll) But I don't see where it says that mana barriers are applied to any specific resistance test, it just says "resistance dice pool"

FrankTrollman

Jul 23 2007, 08:43 PM

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QUOTE (Vaevictis)

Okay, but see, here's where my confusion comes in.

1. Direct combat spells get a "spell resistance test."
2. Indirect combat spells get a "damage resistance test." (in addition to the opposed reaction roll)

But I don't see where it says that mana barriers are applied to any specific resistance test, it just says "resistance dice pool"

It's a different dice pool, the fact that they share the same name is an unfortunate accident. So any particular reference to "resistance" must refer only to damage resistance or spell resistance - not both. That's why Counterspelling is printed twice: once for resistance tests against spellcasting, and a second time for damage resistance tests against indirect combat spells. If it isn't double printed like that, it doesn't apply to both tests.

And mana barriers do not have that bonus double printed, so it doesn't apply to one of them. One is forced to guess from context whether they mean "spell resistance", "damage resistance", "fading resistance", "drain resistance", or "toxin resistance" (the distinct "resistance" tests described in the basic book) - but under the circumstances are you really going to tell me that you're too stupid to figure out that means "spell resistance"?

-Frank

Vaevictis View Member Profile	Jul 23 2007, 08:45 PM Post #67
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 530 Joined: 11-June 05 Member No.: 7,441	I take it to mean, "Any resistance test that is caused by the spell." EDIT: If you don't specify and you leave ambiguity like that, you're leaving it open to interpretation. You choose to interpret it narrowly, and insert the word "spell" into the sentence. I choose to interpret it broadly and apply it to any test that is a "resistance test". It's a matter of classification. "Spell resistance test" is a class of resistance test. "Damage resistance test" is a class of resistance test. "Drain resistance test" is a class of resistance test. "Resistance test" is a class of test. There is a clear class hierarchy here. When I read the sentence: "Should a magician try to cast a spell through a barrier, the target of the spell adds the Force of the barrier to its resistance dice pool." Instead of just saying, "Oh, I know they must have meant spell resistance, so let me just insert the word 'spell'", I say, "What if they deliberately left the word 'spell' out, and are intending to refer to the class 'resistance' as opposed to class 'spell resistance'." It's just a matter of viewpoint.

FrankTrollman

Jul 23 2007, 08:58 PM

Post #68

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QUOTE (Vaevictis)

I take it to mean, "Any resistance test that is caused by the spell."

Sorry, hat's just dumb. There is a Spell Resistance Test. If something says that it adds to your "resistance test" against "spells" - then that's what they are referencing. Any other interpretation is silly.

Yes, the rules in Mana Barriers are not as precise as the rules for Reflecting (SM, p. 61) or Absorbing (SM, p. 59), they dopn't say "Spell Resistance Test" - but they are actually still very clear. It's damned obvious that they don't mean "Toxin Resistance Test".

-Frank

Vaevictis View Member Profile	Jul 23 2007, 09:02 PM Post #69
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 530 Joined: 11-June 05 Member No.: 7,441	Well, IMO, it's pretty stupid to ignore the class hierarchy and automatically assume that when a member in the hierarchy is referenced that it's a specific sub-member that is meant, instead of the member itself.

Talia Invierno View Member Profile	Jul 23 2007, 09:08 PM Post #70
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,677 Joined: 5-June 03 Member No.: 4,689	laugh ... I could say something about the value of arguments that have to keep returning to ad hominem attacks such as "dumb" and "stupid". But I won't.

Vaevictis View Member Profile	Jul 23 2007, 09:08 PM Post #71
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 530 Joined: 11-June 05 Member No.: 7,441	For example, let's do something stupid with the way I see your interpretation. sr4.67, under Spending Edge: "You may re-roll all of the dice on a single test that did not score a hit." Hmm, they didn't specify what kind of test. Hmm. rolls a die. Let's insert the word "Build and Repair". Yeah, that's the ticket.

FrankTrollman

Jul 23 2007, 09:08 PM

Post #72

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QUOTE (Vaevictis)

Well, IMO, it's pretty stupid to ignore the class hierarchy and automatically assume that when a member in the hierarchy is referenced that it's a specific sub-member that is meant, instead of the member itself.

You looked up "Resistance" in the basic book's Index? There are two things under it:

Toxins/Pathogens
Spells.

Damage Resistance is a separate category altogether under the "damage" heading.

In short: there is no class hierarchy under which both damage resistance and spell resistance fall. So you can't "ignore" it - it doesn't exist.

-Frank

Vaevictis View Member Profile	Jul 23 2007, 09:11 PM Post #73
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 530 Joined: 11-June 05 Member No.: 7,441	Edit to be less obnoxious Indexes are lists of words, sometimes with sub-headings containing related words -- keyword being there being sometimes -- that reference pages in the book where those words occur. They're not rules, and they don't imply any structure in the rules. They're simply lists of words and references. That's it. As evidence, I refer you to the "Wi-Fi" entry, which has the entries "detection" and "negation" under them. By your logic then, detection and negation are classes of "Wi-Fi", which is obviously absurd. Your argument is invalid on that basis.

Talia Invierno

Jul 24 2007, 04:32 AM

Post #74

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QUOTE (Tarantula)

Talia, I'm curious to why you didn't even touch my logical arguement concluding that mana barriers have no affect on ritual spells.

Again, sorry. I'm backtracking now, but I'll not duplicate anything I think has been already answered, by myself or especially others. I hope I'll end up answering the specific part you refer to.

QUOTE

Except, that in order to use a ritual spell without a spotter, you must have the sympathetic metamagic. Which means you ARE an initiate, and have unrestricted access.

The original reference was to all spellcasting, not just those using a sympathetic or symbolic link.

For the primary, I'm guessing you mean this?

QUOTE

If there is an astral barrier between the spellcaster and the target, the target gets bonus dice equal to force of the barrier on its resistance test. SR4, 174
No matter whos astral barrier it is (spellcasters, targets, joe blow's) it provides the bonus dice. SR4, 174
Ritual spellcasting requires the group to be inside of a magical lodge with a rating at least as high as the force they are casting at. SR4, 175
Magical lodges are mana barriers. SR4, 185
In regular ritual spellcasting, a link is made between the ritual and the spotter, and the spell is cast from the spotter to the target. SR4, 175
Therefore, the link between ritual and spotter is not affected by mana barriers. Lines 1-5
In material/sympathetic/symbolic rituals, a link is made between the material/object/symbol and the target. SM, 29
The link between ritual and spotter is the same as between material/object/symbol and target, as they can both be tracked to their linked objects. SR4, 185, SM, 29
Therefore, as the link between ritual's and spotters is not affected by an mana barrier, the link between material/object/symbol is also not affected by mana barriers. Lines 6-9

#2 is flawed, which collapses the rest of the argument. Those involved in the activation of a magical lodge can always cast out without penalty through the associated astral barrier, or attune it to others for the same purpose: but at the same time that ward remains a barrier to those not attuned to it who are casting from the outside in:

QUOTE

An activated lodge acts as an astral barrier (see p.185). Any magicians involved in the activation of the lodge are unaffected by the barrier, and can allow other astral forms to pass through it at will. (SR4 168)

Protector152 View Member Profile	Jul 24 2007, 04:56 AM Post #75
Target Group: Members Posts: 30 Joined: 28-August 06 Member No.: 9,240	What kind of mana barrier are we talking about here? The spell or the class that includes the spell? Because i agree that the SPELL Mana Barrier won't stop an indirect combat spell (like fireball) but the spell Physical Barrier will help to stop it (Wether it stops the spell on it's own or not depends on the force's involved). That being said, aren't magical lodges and wards duel natured? So they would add their force to resist ANY spell that was cast through them that did not come from their 'guest list' right? i.e. the person who made them can cast spells through and let others cast spells through but no one else. Any confusion arising from this post is 100% my fault for not explaining well enough. :wobble:

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