 Chinese military using crossbows?, Thought you guys might want to see this |
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 Jul 24 2007, 05:32 AM
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#26
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Target  Group: Members Posts: 46 Joined: 16-July 07 Member No.: 12,274  |
You know, come to think of it, maybe he's just holding it as a placeholder weapon. I mean, if it weighs about the same (although a bit more unwieldy), it might be a good, "My guns in the shop, the photoshoot is today, and crossbows are frickin' cool" situation.
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Jul 24 2007, 05:33 AM
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#27
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
some other options for a crossbow, use it to lob one way radios into camps and similar ;)
i believe the gun first became a proper equalizer when the revolver was introduced by colt and improved by S&W. before that you better hope to kill your target in one shot, or you had at best a poor club in your hands. same deal with the crossbows really. hell, i think some of them was equipped with pointy metal bits, similar to a bayonet. |
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Jul 24 2007, 08:28 AM
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#28
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 530 Joined: 11-June 05 Member No.: 7,441 |
Well, the crossbow really was an equalizer -- on one hand, you might have a mounted knight in plate with his favored weapon and maybe a shield, who's been training all his life. On the other, you have a peasant who's just been called up from the fields.
If you give the peasant a bow or pretty much a random melee weapon, I'm putting my money on the knight without a second thought. Give him a crossbow, and I'd say it's even money. |
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Jul 24 2007, 09:20 AM
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#29
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
well, if thats so then the pike may also be a equalizer ;)
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Jul 24 2007, 02:30 PM
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#30
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 249 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Orlando Member No.: 815 |
Uh, not really. Crossbows weren't just point and click killing simplicity in the Middle Ages. They were technologically advanced weapons that required skillful maintenance and using them in the field also required a high degree of discipline and practice (although much of the skill was in drilling to maintain proper formation). For these reasons the crossbow was the almost exclusive domain of highly paid professional soldiers for hundreds of years particularly the Genoese mercenaries, who were considered the best crossbowmen available. They were employed by nearly every European power and their prestige and dominance of the battlefield only came to end at the conclusion of the Hundred Years War. So the average peasant was still basically fucked. Although what the hell a peasant would be doing fighting a knight is somewhat confusing. Or doing anything other than farming for that matter. The Hundred Years War also saw the first massed use of the longbow upon European battlefields (a great weapon, but probably not the superweapon it's been depicted as by the, predominantly English, historians), and the beginning of the decline of heavy cavalry (who would remain in effective use for another three hundred years). Ummm....history mode off? Sorry, don't know what came over me. |
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Jul 24 2007, 03:43 PM
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#31
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 289 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,625 |
Have to agree with Kyrn here. Three words: Battle of Agincourt. |
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Jul 24 2007, 06:04 PM
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#32
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 239 Joined: 16-December 05 From: new jack city Member No.: 8,077 |
Well the battle of Agincourt was longbows, not crossbows and it wasn't the weapons or men that won that battle, it was the terrain and weather. The heavily armored french knights got sunk in the mud due to their armor and their horses, the english with its rabble army just went over with their knives and hammers and took out the failing french army. (that was abit simplified but its true). Modern historians have proved that a longbow arrow was in no way able to punch threw plate armor. The arrowhead just smushed into the armor. The battle was won by knives and hammers.
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Jul 24 2007, 06:41 PM
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#33
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 164 Joined: 9-December 04 From: former Bug City, now CFS Member No.: 6,875 |
Getting back on topic:
Jaid, I totally understand the logic, but I seriously doubt that medeval armor vs. modern day interceptor/dragon skin is a valid comparison. Crossbows and musket balls both failed to penetrate plate armor at long ranges previous to the 1700s or so. However, modern ammunition uses much higher velocities at all ranges, due to powder loads, higher ballistic coefficients, etc. In World War I calvary units who still retained armored breastplates only were protected against light lances and such. Given the higher velocities of modern rounds (in fact, there are some new cartridges such as 6.5mm Grendel which are becoming much more lethal than even the current 5.56mm/7.62mm standards due to better ballistics) I seriously doubt that they would be resisted by old plate armor. However, you might be right that they aren't too resistant to crossbows. |
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Jul 24 2007, 07:04 PM
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#34
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Target Group: Members Posts: 90 Joined: 25-May 07 From: Florianópolis, Brasil Member No.: 11,747 |
Maybe the crossbow is part of the surprise effect. Or diversionary tactics.
The bowman enter first screamming out his lungs, and while the mouth-opened terrorists are looking to him thinking "what a f**k this guy is doing with a damn crossbow??" the other guys on the squad came shooting from behind. |
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Jul 24 2007, 07:10 PM
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#35
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
I hope they at least have the forethought to invest in some +1 repeating crossbows. Those reload times are a bitch.
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Jul 24 2007, 07:18 PM
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#36
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,677 Joined: 5-June 03 Member No.: 4,689 |
Crossbows predated plate armour by, well, almost a millennium. They are even mentioned in The Art of War (about half a millennium BC).
In modern jungle use, heavy military armour is as much negative as helpful, making kevlar variants and light ceramics far more likely: in effect returning to some of the same conditions. Reload times depend entirely on the weight (string poundage) of crossbow. Many can just be pulled back quickly so you don't even need a winch: and they'll still hurl a bolt with more power (about 60 poundage) than a light longbow (about 40 poundage -- also known as My First Bow :) ). Pistol crossbows is about the only type that even starts to approach the lightness of a light bow. |
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Jul 24 2007, 08:41 PM
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#37
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...which as I discovered are fully capable of killing a 400 watt stereo amplifier at 20 paces. Long story... |
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Jul 24 2007, 10:13 PM
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#38
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Target Group: Members Posts: 58 Joined: 29-June 07 Member No.: 12,085 |
Some models had flames, too. |
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Jul 24 2007, 10:43 PM
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#39
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Slightly related question: I tried looking for the relevant information in SR4 but failed to find anything. What kind of an action or firing mode do crossbows in the game have? I'm guessing SS based upon their description (automatic reloading, clips of bolts) or a full Complex Action like melee weapons. But, again, I couldn't find anything concrete.
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Jul 24 2007, 10:54 PM
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#40
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
no ready weapon action is required, which leads me to think it would be SA personally.
i could certainly see room for SS though... after all, just because *you* don't have to take a ready weapon action doesn't mean that the crossbow doesn't take that much time to reload. i don't personally see any room for making it a complex action though... it certainly doesn't seem more involved than firing a rifle might be. |
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Jul 25 2007, 05:39 AM
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#41
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Horror Group: Members Posts: 5,322 Joined: 15-June 05 From: BumFuck, New Jersey Member No.: 7,445 |
Share? |
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Jul 25 2007, 06:36 AM
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#42
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
SA seems pretty retardedly fast to me. I'd say SS at best (and only that because they have swanky clips full of bolts, etc). |
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Jul 25 2007, 09:19 AM
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#43
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 251 Joined: 29-April 02 Member No.: 2,659 |
2070s crossbows might have magazines of bolts, but you've still got to bend the arms back. I'd say at least a simple action, probably a complex action to reload a latch. Several complex actions for an arbalest, depending on your Strength.
On the subject of armor, crossbow bolts are big and slow, and sharp. The first point is a negative, small fast projectiles (like bullets) penetrate better. The second point is of relevance, a knife will go right through a ballistic vest (without trauma plates) because woven kevlar doesn't deal with sharp things well. But 2070s armor seems to be designed to resist katanas and hellhound fangs and the like, so it probably won't be as big an issue. A high-calibre APDS round would certainly be superior. |
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Jul 25 2007, 10:32 AM
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#44
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 530 Joined: 11-June 05 Member No.: 7,441 |
So Professor, considering that the crossbow was so utterly owned at the Battle of Crecy, why didn't the European powers shift with all possible haste to widespread use of the longbow? |
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Jul 25 2007, 11:25 AM
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#45
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
Because proper longbows take time and skill to fashion, time and a knack to train with to any degree of marksmanship, and a good bit of maintenance.
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Jul 25 2007, 12:52 PM
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#46
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 249 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Orlando Member No.: 815 |
Good question. The bow is easy to make, just a piece of aged wood properly shaped. The problem was that it required years and years of practice to be able to handle properly. England was able to field large forces of archers because there was a culture of the bow in the countryside. Think NASCAR in the deep south and you're starting to get close to how archery was viewed in most villages. This culture resulted in boys who grew up learning marksmanship and then became men who, thanks to years of practice, could draw a hundred plus pound draw-weight longbow multiple times in a battle. Examination of grave finds has shown severe disfigurement of the right shoulders and backs of most archers due to the strain of pulling a bow every day for years and years. Without such a culture of the bow, the other nations of Europe continued to rely upon the crossbow. After the Hundred Years War the English became alarmed as the popularity of archery waned in the countryside and one of the kings (one of the Henry's?) passed a law requiring every man under a certain status to practice with longbow every Sunday. Eventually the English were forced to return to using crossbows and then muskets because there were no longer enough experts longbowmen to field them effectively in military units. FYI, several historians have noted that until the introduction of rifling the longbow remained the most effective ranged weapon in the human arsenal. It was just too fucking hard to use. Plus it had serious issues when it came to using behind cover (you had to be standing to fire it). This proved disadvantageous in sieges. Also worth noting is that the crossbow was (and is) a far better choice for sniping than the bow as you don't have hold a hundred pound string back for a few minutes while waiting for the right shot. |
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Jul 25 2007, 02:15 PM
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#47
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 249 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Orlando Member No.: 815 |
More on topic, maybe they use the crossbow for firing lines for climbing? Besides sentry elimination I can't think of a single other use for it.
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Jul 25 2007, 02:54 PM
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#48
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 289 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,625 |
Yes I know, which would be why I used the Battle of Agincourt as an example to disprove Vaevictus' notion that someone armed with a bow or random melee weapon wouldn't stand a chance against a knight, and that crossbows would make all the difference (seeing as the french did have them). And there were other important factors besides weather and terrain. |
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Jul 25 2007, 02:54 PM
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#49
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 932 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Orlando, Florida Member No.: 1,042 |
I cannot imagine what in freezing hell a modern CQB, counterterror, or police unit would be doing with a crossbow.
They are clumsy, because they are very wide. Firing them around corners is a nightmare. They are very, very slow to reload - a crossbow takes several seconds to be ready to fire again. An M-4 chambers the next round in a fraction of a second. Crossbows are awkward to carry. The ammunition is awkward to carry. There's a reason they went out of fashion three or four centuries ago. Oh, and in modern units they require specialized training, and extra logistics; maintenance, spare parts, ammunition, etc. They are quieter than a firearm. So is a firearm with a suppressor. And the suppressed firearm requires little to no extra training or logistics. What's really great about that picture is that the crossbowman seems to be on point. Apparently they're using him to clear landmines. |
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Jul 25 2007, 03:13 PM
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#50
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,579 Joined: 31-December 06 Member No.: 10,502 |
Looks like the Indian Marines used crossbows for sentry elimination with cyanide tipped arrows, but they switched to silenced firearms.
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Marines.html |
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