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G.NOME
be afraid
eidolon
Clearly, that man is a ninja adept. You can't see him.

Backgammon
Ok. Why? Cause they make no sound? I'm intrigued...
G.NOME
Full article here. You can also see the new-ish qz-95 5.8mm ar in action. One of the guys is also appearently holding a smg that looks like it's from the 60's.
James McMurray
My questions is: why is their target poster a white guy with a cigarette? Do they get a lot of gun toting redneck terrorists over there?
Method
Maybe safer to use on planes?
7.62
From what I remember the Russian Spetsnaz was known to use crossbows along with thrown hatchets and shovels (all supposedly for silent removal).
http://www.kgb-militaryschool.com/view/Spe...petsnaz_weapons details some of the special weapons.
http://www.amazon.com/SPETSNAZ-Inside-Spec...85221463&sr=8-4
is where I first read about the whole shovel/crossbow thing.

Perhaps the Chinese are using the crossbow for the same reason?
hobgoblin
didnt some ww2 agents get issued crossbows?

btw, i see the same showmanship in these drills (diving headfirst in a "window"?!) as one have come to expect from "communist" states. question is, do they do that kind of stuff to make their enemies underestimate them? and how useful can that kind of training really be?
stevebugge
QUOTE (James McMurray)
My questions is: why is their target poster a white guy with a cigarette? Do they get a lot of gun toting redneck terrorists over there?

Clearly they are very concerned over British Soccer Hooligans
James McMurray
Ah, that makes sense. Who can blame them? Shouldn't they be issuing tac-nukes instead of crossbows?
sunnyside
As a side note apperantly Tiawanese (sp) special forces have crossbows as well.

Mainland just trying to keep up with the tech curve?
stevebugge
QUOTE (James McMurray)
Ah, that makes sense. Who can blame them? Shouldn't they be issuing tac-nukes instead of crossbows?

I think an aerosol weapon loaded with de-alcoholized beer would probably be most effective.
James McMurray
Sure, but that's inhumane. Be a decent human being and just nuke 'em!
stevebugge
There clearly needs to be a UN Convention banning de-alcoholized beer
sunnyside
QUOTE (hobgoblin)


btw, i see the same showmanship in these drills (diving headfirst in a "window"?!) as one have come to expect from "communist" states. question is, do they do that kind of stuff to make their enemies underestimate them? and how useful can that kind of training really be?

That reminds me. I need to come up with a good reason for my players to run into some of the "transparent concrete windows" the BBB talks about on p 252. They may spoil my fun with legwork. But the *wham!* if they don't would be priceless.
stevebugge
QUOTE (sunnyside @ Jul 23 2007, 02:18 PM)
QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Jul 23 2007, 03:29 PM)


btw, i see the same showmanship in these drills (diving headfirst in a "window"?!) as one have come to expect from "communist" states. question is, do they do that kind of stuff to make their enemies underestimate them? and how useful can that kind of training really be?

That reminds me. I need to come up with a good reason for my players to run into some of the "transparent concrete windows" the BBB talks about on p 252. They may spoil my fun with legwork. But the *wham!* if they don't would be priceless.

A viewing window on to a chemical plant work floor that uses potentially explosive compounds would be a good one. Lots of solvents fall in to this category for example, these solvents could either be being made on this line or being used in the fabrication of antoher product.
bmcoomes
The only thing I can think of as to why they would use a crossbow is that it will go right through a armored (person w/ ballistic armor) target.

Brent
Wakshaani
QUOTE (bmcoomes)
The only thing I can think of as to why they would use a crossbow is that it will go right through a armored (person w/ ballistic armor) target.

Brent

Troll archery adept?
Talia Invierno
Unlike short/long/folding bows, crossbows don't depend on the user's strength. They were the original equaliser, before firearms came into common use.
Prae
QUOTE (7.62)
From what I remember the Russian Spetsnaz was known to use crossbows along with thrown hatchets and shovels (all supposedly for silent removal).
http://www.kgb-militaryschool.com/view/Spe...petsnaz_weapons details some of the special weapons.
http://www.amazon.com/SPETSNAZ-Inside-Spec...85221463&sr=8-4
is where I first read about the whole shovel/crossbow thing.

Perhaps the Chinese are using the crossbow for the same reason?

I remember seeing some pics of my dad (Force Recon Marine in Vietnam) carrying a tomahawk. It's even big today with V-TAC which has seen use in Afghanistan and Iraq.

And he encountered some NVA and VC armed with very old crossbows. They can definently be nasty, silent weapons.
sunnyside
Actually I remember reading that the, uh, british I think tried using crossbows in their special forces and decided they were too noisy. They do twang.

Also I think most military body armor features ceramic/metal plates. I don't think a crossbow would do well against that. Maybe against the undercover cop style thin kevlar vests.
Jaid
i would suspect they do quite well at punching through armor personally. largely because they were known to punch through armor back when they were first used... and if medieval crossbows punched right through medieval armor, i see no reason a 21st century crossbow couldn't punch through 21st century armor.

probably not as long-range penetration as you can get with a gun, mind you, but in certain situations i could see it working.
Talia Invierno
Not a way that most rich societies are used to thinking: but bullets are used up forever. Crossbow bolts are retrievable and reusable. (Self-sustaining guerrilla tactics?)
sunnyside
QUOTE (Talia Invierno)
Not a way that most rich societies are used to thinking: but bullets are used up forever. Crossbow bolts are retrievable and reusable. (Self-sustaining guerrilla tactics?)

That would be valid in some cases. But not these guys. They only seem to have one though, even in other pictures, so it could just be for looks.

Or maybe situations where having a shot overpentrate or go flying though a wall is simply unacceptable? Though there already are glazers.
Ol' Scratch
It's clearly because they can blend in to the treelines and other terrain with that bad boy. Nevermind the bright orange bands and "HORTON" and "LEGEND XT175" logos. It's all part of the craftiness, man.
Prae
You know, come to think of it, maybe he's just holding it as a placeholder weapon. I mean, if it weighs about the same (although a bit more unwieldy), it might be a good, "My guns in the shop, the photoshoot is today, and crossbows are frickin' cool" situation.
hobgoblin
some other options for a crossbow, use it to lob one way radios into camps and similar wink.gif

QUOTE
They were the original equaliser, before firearms came into common use.


i believe the gun first became a proper equalizer when the revolver was introduced by colt and improved by S&W. before that you better hope to kill your target in one shot, or you had at best a poor club in your hands.

same deal with the crossbows really. hell, i think some of them was equipped with pointy metal bits, similar to a bayonet.
Vaevictis
Well, the crossbow really was an equalizer -- on one hand, you might have a mounted knight in plate with his favored weapon and maybe a shield, who's been training all his life. On the other, you have a peasant who's just been called up from the fields.

If you give the peasant a bow or pretty much a random melee weapon, I'm putting my money on the knight without a second thought. Give him a crossbow, and I'd say it's even money.
hobgoblin
well, if thats so then the pike may also be a equalizer wink.gif
Kyrn
QUOTE (Vaevictis)
Well, the crossbow really was an equalizer -- on one hand, you might have a mounted knight in plate with his favored weapon and maybe a shield, who's been training all his life.  On the other, you have a peasant who's just been called up from the fields.

If you give the peasant a bow or pretty much a random melee weapon, I'm putting my money on the knight without a second thought.  Give him a crossbow, and I'd say it's even money.


Uh, not really. Crossbows weren't just point and click killing simplicity in the Middle Ages. They were technologically advanced weapons that required skillful maintenance and using them in the field also required a high degree of discipline and practice (although much of the skill was in drilling to maintain proper formation). For these reasons the crossbow was the almost exclusive domain of highly paid professional soldiers for hundreds of years particularly the Genoese mercenaries, who were considered the best crossbowmen available. They were employed by nearly every European power and their prestige and dominance of the battlefield only came to end at the conclusion of the Hundred Years War.
So the average peasant was still basically fucked. Although what the hell a peasant would be doing fighting a knight is somewhat confusing. Or doing anything other than farming for that matter.
The Hundred Years War also saw the first massed use of the longbow upon European battlefields (a great weapon, but probably not the superweapon it's been depicted as by the, predominantly English, historians), and the beginning of the decline of heavy cavalry (who would remain in effective use for another three hundred years).

Ummm....history mode off? Sorry, don't know what came over me.
DuckEggBlue Omega
QUOTE (Kyrn)
QUOTE (Vaevictis)
Well, the crossbow really was an equalizer -- on one hand, you might have a mounted knight in plate with his favored weapon and maybe a shield, who's been training all his life.  On the other, you have a peasant who's just been called up from the fields.

If you give the peasant a bow or pretty much a random melee weapon, I'm putting my money on the knight without a second thought.  Give him a crossbow, and I'd say it's even money.


Uh, not really. Crossbows weren't just point and click killing simplicity in the Middle Ages. They were technologically advanced weapons that required skillful maintenance and using them in the field also required a high degree of discipline and practice (although much of the skill was in drilling to maintain proper formation). For these reasons the crossbow was the almost exclusive domain of highly paid professional soldiers for hundreds of years particularly the Genoese mercenaries, who were considered the best crossbowmen available. They were employed by nearly every European power and their prestige and dominance of the battlefield only came to end at the conclusion of the Hundred Years War.
So the average peasant was still basically fucked. Although what the hell a peasant would be doing fighting a knight is somewhat confusing. Or doing anything other than farming for that matter.
The Hundred Years War also saw the first massed use of the longbow upon European battlefields (a great weapon, but probably not the superweapon it's been depicted as by the, predominantly English, historians), and the beginning of the decline of heavy cavalry (who would remain in effective use for another three hundred years).

Ummm....history mode off? Sorry, don't know what came over me.

Have to agree with Kyrn here. Three words: Battle of Agincourt.
Cang
Well the battle of Agincourt was longbows, not crossbows and it wasn't the weapons or men that won that battle, it was the terrain and weather. The heavily armored french knights got sunk in the mud due to their armor and their horses, the english with its rabble army just went over with their knives and hammers and took out the failing french army. (that was abit simplified but its true). Modern historians have proved that a longbow arrow was in no way able to punch threw plate armor. The arrowhead just smushed into the armor. The battle was won by knives and hammers.
G.NOME
Getting back on topic:

Jaid, I totally understand the logic, but I seriously doubt that medeval armor vs. modern day interceptor/dragon skin is a valid comparison. Crossbows and musket balls both failed to penetrate plate armor at long ranges previous to the 1700s or so. However, modern ammunition uses much higher velocities at all ranges, due to powder loads, higher ballistic coefficients, etc. In World War I calvary units who still retained armored breastplates only were protected against light lances and such.

Given the higher velocities of modern rounds (in fact, there are some new cartridges such as 6.5mm Grendel which are becoming much more lethal than even the current 5.56mm/7.62mm standards due to better ballistics) I seriously doubt that they would be resisted by old plate armor. However, you might be right that they aren't too resistant to crossbows.
raphabonelli
Maybe the crossbow is part of the surprise effect. Or diversionary tactics.

The bowman enter first screamming out his lungs, and while the mouth-opened terrorists are looking to him thinking "what a f**k this guy is doing with a damn crossbow??" the other guys on the squad came shooting from behind.
James McMurray
I hope they at least have the forethought to invest in some +1 repeating crossbows. Those reload times are a bitch.
Talia Invierno
Crossbows predated plate armour by, well, almost a millennium. They are even mentioned in The Art of War (about half a millennium BC).

In modern jungle use, heavy military armour is as much negative as helpful, making kevlar variants and light ceramics far more likely: in effect returning to some of the same conditions.

Reload times depend entirely on the weight (string poundage) of crossbow. Many can just be pulled back quickly so you don't even need a winch: and they'll still hurl a bolt with more power (about 60 poundage) than a light longbow (about 40 poundage -- also known as My First Bow smile.gif ). Pistol crossbows is about the only type that even starts to approach the lightness of a light bow.
Kyoto Kid
QUOTE (Talia Invierno)
Pistol crossbows is about the only type that even starts to approach the lightness of a light bow.

...which as I discovered are fully capable of killing a 400 watt stereo amplifier at 20 paces.

Long story...
Begby
QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)
It's clearly because they can blend in to the treelines and other terrain with that bad boy. Nevermind the bright orange bands and "HORTON" and "LEGEND XT175" logos. It's all part of the craftiness, man.

Some models had flames, too.
Ol' Scratch
Slightly related question: I tried looking for the relevant information in SR4 but failed to find anything. What kind of an action or firing mode do crossbows in the game have? I'm guessing SS based upon their description (automatic reloading, clips of bolts) or a full Complex Action like melee weapons. But, again, I couldn't find anything concrete.
Jaid
no ready weapon action is required, which leads me to think it would be SA personally.

i could certainly see room for SS though... after all, just because *you* don't have to take a ready weapon action doesn't mean that the crossbow doesn't take that much time to reload.

i don't personally see any room for making it a complex action though... it certainly doesn't seem more involved than firing a rifle might be.
ShadowDragon8685
QUOTE (Kyoto Kid)
QUOTE (Talia Invierno)
Pistol crossbows is about the only type that even starts to approach the lightness of a light bow.

...which as I discovered are fully capable of killing a 400 watt stereo amplifier at 20 paces.

Long story...

Share?
Critias
QUOTE (Jaid)
no ready weapon action is required, which leads me to think it would be SA personally.

i could certainly see room for SS though... after all, just because *you* don't have to take a ready weapon action doesn't mean that the crossbow doesn't take that much time to reload.

i don't personally see any room for making it a complex action though... it certainly doesn't seem more involved than firing a rifle might be.

SA seems pretty retardedly fast to me. I'd say SS at best (and only that because they have swanky clips full of bolts, etc).
Dancer
2070s crossbows might have magazines of bolts, but you've still got to bend the arms back. I'd say at least a simple action, probably a complex action to reload a latch. Several complex actions for an arbalest, depending on your Strength.

On the subject of armor, crossbow bolts are big and slow, and sharp. The first point is a negative, small fast projectiles (like bullets) penetrate better. The second point is of relevance, a knife will go right through a ballistic vest (without trauma plates) because woven kevlar doesn't deal with sharp things well. But 2070s armor seems to be designed to resist katanas and hellhound fangs and the like, so it probably won't be as big an issue. A high-calibre APDS round would certainly be superior.
Vaevictis
QUOTE (Kyrn)
For these reasons the crossbow was the almost exclusive domain of highly paid professional soldiers for hundreds of years particularly the Genoese mercenaries, who were considered the best crossbowmen available.  They were employed by nearly every European power and their prestige and dominance of the battlefield only came to end at the conclusion of the Hundred Years War.


So Professor, considering that the crossbow was so utterly owned at the Battle of Crecy, why didn't the European powers shift with all possible haste to widespread use of the longbow?
Critias
Because proper longbows take time and skill to fashion, time and a knack to train with to any degree of marksmanship, and a good bit of maintenance.
Kyrn
QUOTE (Vaevictis)
QUOTE (Kyrn)
For these reasons the crossbow was the almost exclusive domain of highly paid professional soldiers for hundreds of years particularly the Genoese mercenaries, who were considered the best crossbowmen available.  They were employed by nearly every European power and their prestige and dominance of the battlefield only came to end at the conclusion of the Hundred Years War.


So Professor, considering that the crossbow was so utterly owned at the Battle of Crecy, why didn't the European powers shift with all possible haste to widespread use of the longbow?

Good question. The bow is easy to make, just a piece of aged wood properly shaped. The problem was that it required years and years of practice to be able to handle properly. England was able to field large forces of archers because there was a culture of the bow in the countryside. Think NASCAR in the deep south and you're starting to get close to how archery was viewed in most villages. This culture resulted in boys who grew up learning marksmanship and then became men who, thanks to years of practice, could draw a hundred plus pound draw-weight longbow multiple times in a battle.

Examination of grave finds has shown severe disfigurement of the right shoulders and backs of most archers due to the strain of pulling a bow every day for years and years. Without such a culture of the bow, the other nations of Europe continued to rely upon the crossbow. After the Hundred Years War the English became alarmed as the popularity of archery waned in the countryside and one of the kings (one of the Henry's?) passed a law requiring every man under a certain status to practice with longbow every Sunday. Eventually the English were forced to return to using crossbows and then muskets because there were no longer enough experts longbowmen to field them effectively in military units.

FYI, several historians have noted that until the introduction of rifling the longbow remained the most effective ranged weapon in the human arsenal. It was just too fucking hard to use. Plus it had serious issues when it came to using behind cover (you had to be standing to fire it). This proved disadvantageous in sieges. Also worth noting is that the crossbow was (and is) a far better choice for sniping than the bow as you don't have hold a hundred pound string back for a few minutes while waiting for the right shot.
Kyrn
More on topic, maybe they use the crossbow for firing lines for climbing? Besides sentry elimination I can't think of a single other use for it.
DuckEggBlue Omega
QUOTE (Cang)
Well the battle of Agincourt was longbows, not crossbows and it wasn't the weapons or men that won that battle, it was the terrain and weather. The heavily armored french knights got sunk in the mud due to their armor and their horses, the english with its rabble army just went over with their knives and hammers and took out the failing french army. (that was abit simplified but its true). Modern historians have proved that a longbow arrow was in no way able to punch threw plate armor. The arrowhead just smushed into the armor. The battle was won by knives and hammers.

Yes I know, which would be why I used the Battle of Agincourt as an example to disprove Vaevictus' notion that someone armed with a bow or random melee weapon wouldn't stand a chance against a knight, and that crossbows would make all the difference (seeing as the french did have them).

And there were other important factors besides weather and terrain.
Zen Shooter01
I cannot imagine what in freezing hell a modern CQB, counterterror, or police unit would be doing with a crossbow.

They are clumsy, because they are very wide. Firing them around corners is a nightmare. They are very, very slow to reload - a crossbow takes several seconds to be ready to fire again. An M-4 chambers the next round in a fraction of a second.

Crossbows are awkward to carry. The ammunition is awkward to carry. There's a reason they went out of fashion three or four centuries ago. Oh, and in modern units they require specialized training, and extra logistics; maintenance, spare parts, ammunition, etc.

They are quieter than a firearm. So is a firearm with a suppressor. And the suppressed firearm requires little to no extra training or logistics.

What's really great about that picture is that the crossbowman seems to be on point. Apparently they're using him to clear landmines.
sunnyside
Looks like the Indian Marines used crossbows for sentry elimination with cyanide tipped arrows, but they switched to silenced firearms.

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Marines.html
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