Adept vs. Wired pistol build, Which works better Options

[l33tpenguin]

Long time fan of Shadowrun, though always been at a loss for a good GM :( Played a decker, in every flavor, from pure wired to my deck 24/7 to cybered up near street sammie blazing guns or blazing sleaze until they became hackers and cyberdecks went away and I couldn't understand the matrix rules. So I'm looking at a new character flavor.
So, I'm new to 4th and still getting used to the rules. Miss the old priority system but trying to get used to the new point build so was looking for some help.
What I want to build is a dual automatic pistol wielding type, but with no obvious cyber. While I know it is probably trite, I would like the character to be modeled around the clerics in Equilibrium, minus the whole Gun kata (unless there IS a way to replicate this within the rules...).
I've been looking at wired reflexes, smart links, muscle toners, adept abilities, etc, While I have some ideas on what some good combinations would be, I've yet to get a chance to run in a game to actually apply a build so I was looking for some input, mainly focused on ways of building a character for high strike success with automatic pistols
Yes, I'm sure, grammaton cleric, trite. please humor me :D

[Shinobi Killfist]

I have no idea what clerics in Equilibrium are nut I can sort of make a non obvious cyber two gun wielder.

Well the two main factors for hit success are Agility and skill.
Agility Factors:
1. Base Stat
2. Race
3. cyber/bioware
4 magic.

1. Base stat up to 6 or 7 with the exceptional attribute edge.
2. Race Elf gives +1 which increases the max.
3. Cyber/bioware. Muscle toner is a fairly inexpensive but has a high availability you can start with 2 levels of it.
4. Magic can improve agility but its poorly designed expensive past your normal racial maximums, as it always has been.

Best bet for good dice from agility Maxed/exceptional attribute elf with 2 levels of muscle toner. Starting agility of 10.

Second factor is skill.
Skill Factors
1. Base Skill
2. cyber/bioware
3. magic.

Base skill max is 6 with aptitude positive trait its 7, with cyber and or magic mods max dice is 9 or 10 when have aptitude trait.

While the cyber is cheaper it provides overall less dice at the moment. Only reflex recorder increases the skill dice, and it only can give 1 extra die. But getting magic and cyber and good attributes and good skills is kind of impossible. Also with aptitude you cant take ambidexterity which is essential for the two gun style.

After that its generic mods to skill dice the only real ones are smartgun link+2 dice pput in a cheap pair of glasses or contacts, and recoil compensation no extra dice but helps stop loss of dice.

So its a sort of up to you in the how many dice do you want to roll. Right now with just 1 die in auto pistols you roll 11 dice. Two weapon style that's 5 and 6 dice.

Personally I like phys adds so I'd take exceptional attribute agility, ambidexterity, and adept for my positive qualities. Then I'd raise my magic to about 4 for adept abillties (dropped to 2 from bioware) Qualities cost (35)

So pistols lets say 4, 1 levels of improved ability pistols form adept abilities. Then 1.5 magic point in adept abilities of choice.

Bioware, 2 levels of muscle toner(16,000) and 2 levels of synaptic booster(160,000). relfex recorder pistols(10,000), platelet factories.(25,000) 211,000 total or (43 )build points

Magic to 4 (30) points
Agility to 8 (75) points
Pistols 4 (16)

35+43+30+75+16=199
Leaving201 points without and negative qualities for attributes, skills, contacts. And only 125 points can be spent in attributes.

So
B 3
S 2
A 8(10)
R 4
C 3
I 3
L 3
W 3

Cost 120 more points, current total = 219 Leaving 81 points for extra gear(max 7 more points), contacts, and skills to flesh out the character. Another point of magic cant hurt I'm fond of the combat sense power, also if clerics in Equilibrium do any crouching tiger crap one of the street magic abilities like gliding would be fitting.

Its a bit to focused for my tastes, but you need a high amount of dice if you are going for the two weapon style thing. The end result would be if I'm doing my math and remembering the rules right 18 dice to roll, when going two weapon style it would be 9/9 dice. I personally don't suggest maxing out the skill so you have at least someplace to grow in your focus.

[Prae]

Back in the days of SR3, I had a fanatical Gun Kata player (I was GM). Made it a Martial Art, and for every 3 ranks he had in it, I let him either add 1 die to his combat tests involving firearms, or 1 die to his dodge tests when shot at. And of course, he could fight melee with Martial Arts (Gun kata). I can't remember any of the manuevers though :( Sure it was a houserule, but we were playing a pulpy SR game and at the time, Equilibrium was teh r0xx.

Truth be told, I'm not sure how you would do it in SR4. Not yet at least.

[Da9iel]

It's worth considering going with the Ruger Warhawk. SS so you can shot the one in your left hand for your first simple action and the one in your right for your second. Sure, you're putting half the lead in the air, but you're almost guaranteed to hit even if your target is actively dodging (because you aren't splitting your dice), and you get a damage code that is one higher than any other heavy pistol. It also makes the called shot +4 damage -4 pool very worthwhile. Plus revolvers are cool, aren't they KK? Be sure to ask your GM how 2 pistols work with smartlinks. Some might give you +2 for each. Most will give you +2 for one of them. Some won't let you use smartlink with 2 pistols at all. Also go ahead and put 3 ranks into improved ability (pistols). I think you can do this and still use the +1 from the reflex recorder. If you're going to specialize, go all out. 8 + 10 + (2?) = Yeehaw!

[Crusher Bob]

Different Build:

ork
adept
ambidextrous
35 points of flaws of your choice

Total point cost 356 leaving 79 points for more skills, contacts, stats, etc (you have 435 points total, after flaws)


Bod 4
Agl 5 (7)
Rea 5 (9)
Str 3
Cha 3
Int 5
Log 3
Wil 3
(only 180 points officially spent on stats here, you can add 2 more points)

Edge 5

Essence 4.3

Magic 5 (3)

Skills
Pistols 6 (9) autoloaders

Adept powers
Improved Pistols 3 (1.5 PP)
Combat Sense 3 (1.5 PP)

Ware:
Synaptic -2 (1 E)
Muscle Toner - 2 (.4 E)
Reaction Enhancer - 2 (.6 E /2)

(Costs 196,000Y, meaning you have to spend at least 40 points on resources)

You have a passive defense of 12 dice, making you quite hard to hit and have 18 dice with autoloading pistols (20 with a smartlink).

In addition, you can cram in .3 more essence of ware, if you can squeeze out the funds.

[WeaverMount]

The tetra gramaton clerics rock. I actually think you could do the gun kata bit perfectly with a combination of powers call combat Sense + Improved Ability (Pistols) + A crap ton of edge. I'm going to roll up a cleric right now. And Post it
So I guess the only question is "ARE YOU PLAYING WITH ME CLERIC!" ;)

Ok so I cooked one up a cleric. I wrote it as an optimum balance of rocking in SR4 with RAW, while using tactics that John Preston used on screen.

[Glyph]

Here's a modified version of my elven gunslinger adept template:

[ Spoiler ]

Adept Gunslinger
Race: Elven

BREAKDOWN (400 Points)
Core Attributes: 195
Special Attributes: 80
Race: 30
Active Skills: 78
Qualities: +5
Contacts: 5
Resources: 15
Bond Foci: 2

=Attributes=
Body: 4
Agility: 8 (10)
Reaction: 5 (7)
Strength: 2
Charisma: 3
Intuition: 2
Logic: 2
Willpower: 3
Magic: 5(4)
Edge: 5

Essence: 5.15

=Qualities=
Adept
Addiction - Stimulants, Mild
Allergy - Silver(Uncommon), Moderate
Ambidexterity
Exceptional Attribute - Quickness
Sensitive Neural Structure
Sensitive System

=Active Skills=
Dodge/Ranged: 4/+2
Etiquette/Street: 1/+2
Infiltration: 1
Perception: 3
Pistols/Machine Pistols: 6/+2
Monofilament Whip: 4

=Knowledge Skills=
12 points of Appropriate Knowledge Skills

=Cyberware=
Cybereyes II with:
>Flare Compensation
>Low-Light Vision
>Smartlink
>Vision Magnification

=Bioware=
Muscle Toner: 2
Reflex Recorder - Pistols

=Adept Abilities=
Improved Ability - Pistols: 2
Improved Reflexes: 2

=Bound Magical Foci=
Weapon Focus (Monofilament Whip): Rating 2

=Contacts=
Fixer (Connection: 3/Loyalty: 2)

=Lifestyle and Gear=
24,500 Nuyen left after buying cyberware, bioware, and weapon focus.

Basically changed his specialization and replaced aptitude/pistols with ambidexterity (can't have both without going over the 35 limit on qualities), gaining some skill points in the trade. Effective at melee as well as ranged combat, if minimally competent in other areas. Easy enough to diversify him and plug up his weak points during play, though.

[Eleazar]

To make an effective tetra gramaton cleric you are going to have to create some house rules. One of the first thing you would be changing are the dual-wielding rules. Dual-wielding has been nerfed into oblivion.

[Crusher Bob]

You mean it is no longer superior to using a single weapon in every possible situation? Oh my paws and whiskers! In general, wielding two weapons is useful for the following:

Taking out mooks (who don't have the dodge skill to get out of the way of a modest die pool attack)
Draining defensive dice. While using two weapons you can attack 4 times rather than 2, draining more defensive dice from the target. Against a passive defense adept with 15-18 dice in passive defense, you might need to drain his dice before you even have a chance to hit him.

[Zen Shooter01]

Man, this adept vs. samurai debate never gets old.

[Serial_Peacemake...]

Now, I forget what are the rules concerning dual wielding, and fully automatic weapons? I mean can you essentially decide to attack six targets, if you have two automatic hand held weapons and take a full round action?

[Fortune]

[Ol' Scratch]

Skill wise they are. I'm pretty sure they count as "pistol" for size purposes.

[Glyph]

Yeah, it should be automatics/machine pistols. Although I don't favor machine pistols, myself, since their lack of recoil compensation nerfs their biggest advantage. Personally, I favor the Warhawk like Da9iel does. Not only an extra point of damage, but an extra point of AP, too. Load with EX Explosive and go to town.

[Whipstitch]

Machine pistols are one category bigger/less concealable than heavy pistols. The machine pistol category currently in the book seems to be modeled after (and includes!) weapons like the Steyr TMP and the micro Uzi rather than say, the Beretta 93r, which has a 3 round burst crammed into a traditional pistol form factor. I would expect that anything under 8" and has 3 burst fire or SA instead of a true fully automatic mode will be tossed into the pistol category from here on out. It's as good a way of divvying things up as any, far as I'm concerned. After all, even a micro uzi isn't quite what I'd call a pocket pistol. :cyber:

[l33tpenguin]

Thanks for the replies, crunching the numbers you guys gave me. Had a couple questions
1-

[Glyph]

You can add a gas-vent to a machine pistol (barrel mount), but the Ceska can only fire up to BF, and the Steyr lacks a folding stock. They are okay, still, but I prefer weapons like the Ares Alpha or Ingram White Knight, that can be tricked out to the point where you can fire full-auto with little to no penalty.

[Ol' Scratch]

The Steyr and Ceska are both really nice options if you have a high Automatics Skill and a Cyberarm Gyromount. You can easily get RC 5 or 6 that way, which is plenty for any situation in which you only need a small arm. What's nice is that in those situations where you need an Ares Alpha, ta da, not only do you have the skill, but you can crank that RC up to 9 with it.