Industry Questions - Dumpshock Forums

Industry Questions

Adam View Member Profile	Nov 14 2003, 03:38 PM Post #1
Prime Runner Group: Retired Admins Posts: 3,929 Joined: 26-February 02 From: .ca Member No.: 51	This is the thread where you can ask questions about the industry, and I [or some of the other industry people who hang out here, maybe] will try to answer. I'm starting this because someone on another message board commented that I was using 'jargon' when I mentioned "Text approval" and "layout" -- two words that I don't think are anything close to jargon... so if I can answer and pressing or not-so-pressing questions people may have about processes within the industry, that would be cool; an educated fan base is a good fan base.

Synner View Member Profile	Nov 14 2003, 03:41 PM Post #2
Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185	Very cool idea, Adam.

nezumi View Member Profile	Nov 14 2003, 04:36 PM Post #3
Incertum est quo loco te mors expectet; Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,546 Joined: 24-October 03 From: DeeCee, U.S. Member No.: 5,760	I think the people who really don't know how the magic is made (like me) aren't goign to know enough to ask the questions... I mean all I see is I enter in my credit card on the wizkids site or ebay, and out comes a book in the mail a week later. So is there anything really exciting going on that I can't already guess at (upper management says 'time to put out a new SR book', authors brainstorm and make up some ideas, editors call the authors bad names, playtesters playtest and tweak, artists hired and its sent off to the publisher)?

bwdemon View Member Profile	Nov 14 2003, 04:48 PM Post #4
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 139 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Cleveland-Akron Sprawl Member No.: 1,200	Why do game companies tend to horde upcoming products in secrecy, rather than get the product and details about it out to the public at large? The SR people haven't been too terribly guilty of this, but many other companies seem to want to hide everything until maybe a month before it is due out. It seems to me that if you want to know how a product will be received, putting out news of it early will let you know how many people are willing to buy it. By waiting until the last minute and hiding all the details, companies gamble that what they're releasing is exactly what is wanted and that they can guess the sales figures. One possible excuse I've seen in action is where a deal is not quite yet finalized for something like a game setting. You don't want to spook the other side, claim that something exists when it doesn't, or clue in your competitors that the setting is even up for sale. However, even after this stage, when all the deals are done and the book is in development, there still seems to be a conspiracy to keep it out of the knowledge of the people who will eventually buy it. Likewise, what is the problem with saying "the art hasn't all come in yet, so the book will be late" or whatever valid reason exists instead of leaving consumers wondering why the release date has come and gone without a peep? Is it some horrible shameful secret that the print run was flawed or that the layout wasn't completed yet or whatever else happened to delay the product? Again, information is always appreciated. Without such a reason, fans speculate and do more damage through that than could possibly be done by admitting something like "the editor came down with strep throat and missed a week of work". Is it just a case of ivory tower syndrome or is there an honest reason why holding back such information may be better than releasing it?

Pthgar View Member Profile	Nov 14 2003, 04:56 PM Post #5
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 619 Joined: 27-May 03 From: Detroit Member No.: 4,642	A very Good Idea. 1st Question: I know it has been said elsewhere, but how long, approxamately, does it take to make a new book start to finish (concept to in my hand)? 2nd Question: What determines if a book gets made or not? There are plenty of requests for books about every facet of the SR world. Is there some criteria for implementation? 3rd Question: Related to the 2nd. Where/Who generates Big Ideas for new books and adventures besides fans, assuming that the fan's Big Ideas are actually taken (I don't assume thet, really, given the quality of some of our ideas)?

Adam

Nov 14 2003, 05:18 PM

Post #6

Prime Runner

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QUOTE

Why do game companies tend to horde upcoming products in secrecy, rather than get the product and details about it out to the public at large? The SR people haven't been too terribly guilty of this, but many other companies seem to want to hide everything until maybe a month before it is due out.

Good question. It depends on the company, obviously, but here's what I percieve to be the primary reason: It's easier. Releasing useful information in advance takes time -- if I can spend a half day whipping up a preview for a book, or a half day laying out 10 pages of that book, I know where my time is better spent.

Second, releasing information doesn't tend to reduce the number of questions -- it raises them, as people ask questions about the content. More time is spent fielding those questions.

QUOTE

It seems to me that if you want to know how a product will be received, putting out news of it early will let you know how many people are willing to buy it. By waiting until the last minute and hiding all the details, companies gamble that what they're releasing is exactly what is wanted and that they can guess the sales figures.

Game companies cannot use the public's reaction to a product post-announcement as a barometer for popularity.

Game Company announces product X.
Fans don't seem to be wild on it.
Distributors and stores have pre-ordered some copies of product X. Information about product X has filtered through the system.
Game Company decides to cancel product X.
Stores, Distributors, and some fans get pissed off.

That said, if pre-orders are absolutely horrible, a product may be cancelled, and the number of pre-orders + percieved customer interest is a determining factor in print runs.

QUOTE

One *possible* excuse I've seen in action is where a deal is not quite yet finalized for something like a game setting. You don't want to spook the other side, claim that something exists when it doesn't, or clue in your competitors that the setting is even up for sale. However, even after this stage, when all the deals are done and the book is in development, there still seems to be a conspiracy to keep it out of the knowledge of the people who will eventually buy it.

With licensed products, a lot of this has to do with approvals -- almost anything you do [previews, advertising, etc] relating to a licensed product has to be approved by the property owner. This takes time, and you typically don't want to bother the owners with frivilous stuff -- you want them to know that when you send them something for approvals, it's important, and they should make it a priority.

And before contracts are signed, not a word should be spoken.

QUOTE

Likewise, what is the problem with saying "the art hasn't all come in yet, so the book will be late" or whatever valid reason exists instead of leaving consumers wondering why the release date has come and gone without a peep? Is it some horrible shameful secret that the print run was flawed or that the layout wasn't completed yet or whatever else happened to delay the product? Again, information is always appreciated. Without such a reason, fans speculate and do more damage through that than could possibly be done by admitting something like "the editor came down with strep throat and missed a week of work".

In some cases it's not nice to call out someone's failings -- I'll stand up and admit if I fuck something up or I'm not up to speed doing something, I don't particularly want my boss posting publically "yeah, Adam is being shitty. Dude, this book is taking forever." :)

And again, if someone is behind on something, they should probably be working on it, not spending time telling people how far behind they are. :)

Adam

Nov 14 2003, 05:24 PM

Post #7

Prime Runner

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QUOTE

1st Question: I know it has been said elsewhere, but how long, approxamately, does it take to make a new book start to finish (concept to in my hand)?

Depends on the company, the game line, and the product type.

I'd say 1-2 years; two years for more complex things like new editions, new games, etc, a year for a supplement for an already existing line. Possibly even shorter for a smaller product and for products with fewer people working on them.

QUOTE

2nd Question: What determines if a book gets made or not? There are plenty of requests for books about every facet of the SR world. Is there some criteria for implementation?

"Will this book make money for the company? Will this book make more money than any other book we could put in this slot?"

[In theory, the books that gamers want and need are the ones that will make money...]

QUOTE

3rd Question: Related to the 2nd. Where/Who generates Big Ideas for new books and adventures besides fans, assuming that the fan's Big Ideas are actually taken (I don't assume thet, really, given the quality of some of our ideas)?

Pretty much anyone. Obviously each product has to go through the chain-of-command to get approval from the higher-ups, though.

Typically how this works is the Line Developer generates and gathers ideas, then writes up a list of books he wants to publish over the next year or two, and basically "sells" those books to the person in charge of scheduling -- usually the company president, given the size of most game companies. :-)

Most companies hold meetings once in awhile to bash around ideas, think of ways to improve products, cull products from the schedule, etc. I spent a day and a half in meetings this week determining the 2004 and early 2005 GOO schedule, for example.

Synner

Nov 15 2003, 01:35 PM

Post #8

Runner

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QUOTE (Pthgar @ Nov 14 2003, 04:56 PM)

1st Question: I know it has been said elsewhere, but how long, approxamately, does it take to make a new book start to finish (concept to in my hand)?

Just my 2 cents on this particular since a critical element of this is understanding how the submission process for most game companies actually works since I've found its the single most common thing I've been asked about since the EuroSBers got SoE in.

I have to admit that my entrance into "freelancehood" wasn't really typical. I had a huge battering ram to knock FanPro's doors open, in the form of the EuroSB project. That being said I think the approach I took is the one everyone ultimately takes. I submitted a Proposal exactly as described in the FanPro Writer Guidelines.

First of all I suggest you carefully read the official Writer Submission Guidelines, especially the part pertaining to what actually constitutes a "Proposal" if you're thinking of submitting for FanPro but most companies have similar guidelines available online.

This is the single biggest problem people seem to have regarding the submission proccess. Having a "concept" is not enough and having a "draft" is too much. Read up on what a particular game company actually wants.

Let's take FanPro as an example. FanPro doesn't really want a finished draft (aka a manuscript), it wants a Proposal, which the Developer will study, take apart and finally (if approved) ask you if you're interested in doing it his way, or "to spec". Sometimes he really likes the contents of the proposal and the draft you end up being asked to write essentially follows what you would have done anyway, and sometimes he wants huge modifications and an entirely different approach but likes your writing style. In the couple of projects I've been in on I've seen both happen.

A Proposal goes far beyond a basic concept and on the other hand it isn't a sample of your writing or even a "working draft". It is an Outline of the book (or part thereof your submitting for), a Detailed Summary of what you would include in that Outline and finally a pitch (explaining why what you propose is a good idea, why it would sell and how it would enhance the game). All this within a tight wordcount. Follow the guidelines as strictly as possible since it'll demonstrate your ability to write and sell ideas within the limitations of a freelancer's worst enemy - wordcount.

If you're an "outsider" like I was you send in stuff blind and keep your fingers crossed. If your Proposal is good enough to sell your idea the Developer accordingly adjust the outline of a given book to include the section you propose, ask you to wait until an appropriate book comes up for development or in the case of something big like "Shadows of Europe" he'll try to schedule the book within his planned production schedule. This latter bit means that it will be scheduled when a slot is available in the production schedule. In the case of SoE for instance the first open slot was a year and a half after the original submission and actual development work only started then. In practice it will have been almost 2 and a half years since the EuroSBers proposed the concept and the book actually comes out.

The main reason full drafts are pretty useless is that during the ensuing development process of a book you might simply be told to change the Voice of a piece which means you have to rewrite the whole thing from scratch or the Developer might simply prefer a different approach to some subject which forces you to reorganize the whole thing.

Digital Heroin View Member Profile	Nov 15 2003, 03:55 PM Post #9
Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,458 Joined: 22-March 03 From: I am a figment of my own imagination. Member No.: 4,302	Is there anything on some kind of item on a wishlist right now that a first time submission freelance writer might be able to take a shot at? You know, in case there happen to be any reading this. Wow... aren't I a master of the art of subtlety.

Adam

Nov 16 2003, 05:42 AM

Post #10

Prime Runner

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QUOTE (Digital Heroin)

Is there anything on some kind of item on a wishlist right now that a first time submission freelance writer might be able to take a shot at? You know, in case there happen to be any reading this.

I think that potential freelancers should spend their time becoming familiar with the game line, the kind of supplements and support material that is published for it, and then hedge their bets by submitting proposals that fit in well, covering material that either expands the game universe in logical ways [For example, the genetech in SOTA:2063] or deals with fallout from previous products [the Wake of the Comet adventure set.]

Some game companies publish a public wishlist -- Steve Jackson Games, for one. The list of projects that FanPro intends to publish over the next few years for Shadowrun is also relatively well-known, so finding it and working up some proposals regarding products on that list is not a bad idea.

[Please note: I don't want to turn this into a 'How to Freelane for FanPro' thread, so if you want more specifics on that, I'd suggest spinning it off into another thread.]

Synner View Member Profile	Nov 16 2003, 11:25 AM Post #11
Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185	Which brings me nicely round to another question: I've been wondering if anyone has heard anything about Swords & Sorcery's development of the Aeon Continuum games post-relauch and who the lead developer might be (I've heard different accounts about who amongst the old developers will be involved but nothing specific on who's managing the show).

Adam View Member Profile	Nov 17 2003, 01:57 AM Post #12
Prime Runner Group: Retired Admins Posts: 3,929 Joined: 26-February 02 From: .ca Member No.: 51	I haven't heard anything either; certainly no public announcements. I know that Bruce Baugh won't be involved, but that's the extent of my knowledge on this subect.

Synner View Member Profile	Nov 17 2003, 01:24 PM Post #13
Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185	What I'd heard was the Bruce Baugh would be involved in some of the writing but the development would be an as yet-unidentified someone else. I'm a big fan of Trinity and Adventure!, less so of Aberrant, and I've been considering submitting stuff to S&S (both artwork and writing), however I'm afraid this'll go down the route other S&S lines have gone where they stick to a stable of known writers (not that there's anything wrong with that as long as the books are good).

Pistons View Member Profile	Nov 17 2003, 01:37 PM Post #14
Not Cameron Diaz Group: Retired Admins Posts: 472 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Newark, Delaware Member No.: 188	I don't know who's taking on the developing either, but if the Warcraft book does well, or has gone well in the developing process, then maybe Dierdre Brooks? Oh, and Synner: While that was a nicely detailed answer on how to submit proposals, it didn't answer his question on "how long." ;) (Adam covered it, though.)

Synner View Member Profile	Nov 17 2003, 03:50 PM Post #15
Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185	Very true. I did get carried away there, mostly because I've been contacted by a number of people since "DotSW" came out asking me, "how did you do it?" When I tell them the EuroSbers simply followed the FanPro guidelines and I did much the same for DotSW, some have sent me their proposals for some critique and comment. Invariably I've found most people don't really read the guidelines and while these proposals do introduce some nice plots and "concepts", they normally lack any reference to execution (appropriate format, Voice, context, etc), links to continuity and tie-ins to ongoing setting and most even lack a proper pitch (come on people you're supposed to be selling your idea!). That's not to mention the times people put together 20000-word drafts instead. And thanks Pistons, I'll keep my ear to the ground and see if anything is made public before the first book hits the shelves since apparently they're starting with Adventure! and building towards Trinity (the one I'm most interested in) anyway. I especially like they're picking up the Continuum continuity where WW/arthaus left off.

Adam View Member Profile	Nov 17 2003, 04:10 PM Post #16
Prime Runner Group: Retired Admins Posts: 3,929 Joined: 26-February 02 From: .ca Member No.: 51	Concur. We had someone post on our [GOO's] mailing lists about a month back, basically saying "I know that reading submission guidelines isn't really the way anyone gets into the industry, so why don't you guys tell me what you're looking for and I'll do it?" He was soundly ignored. The absolute first skill you need as a freelancer is the ability to follow directions -- even directions you don't like. Can't do that? You can't freelance.

Kanada Ten View Member Profile	Nov 18 2003, 03:03 AM Post #17
Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826	Why are video games treated like competition more than CCG and other types of genres? It seems to me stores and "the industry" treat PC games like an curse. It is well known that many players of RPG's and such often play video games as well, while the reverse may not be true. I have not seen a store that sold both PC games and RPG's/CCG's, and yet this would seem to be a great way to attract new players.

Adam View Member Profile	Nov 18 2003, 04:10 AM Post #18
Prime Runner Group: Retired Admins Posts: 3,929 Joined: 26-February 02 From: .ca Member No.: 51	I really don't think manufacturers think PC/console games are competition -- I'm sure some do, but I haven't met many that scream "oh my lord the sky is falling video games will kill us alllll!". Certainly everyone I know in the gaming industry likes to kick back with a video game once in awhile, if not daily. Honestly, it seems to be more of a fan thing to go "oh no! video games are killing my RPGs!" The reason most game stores don't stock PC or console games is because the margins are razor thin -- sometimes as low as 10% on a title, and it's exceptionally hard to compete against proper game retailers and "big box" stores like Wal-Mart and the like. If you bring in a game that sells for $50 [paying $45, we'll ignore shipping] and a month later it still hasn't sold, but the other stores have discounted it to $30, you either have to keep it around at $50 and hope some fool buys it, or drop it to $30. If you sell it for $30, you now have to sell three more titles at full price [assuming $5 profit] just to break even. Plus, just investing in 20 titles is nearly $1000 -- a pretty hefty sum for most game stores.

Kanada Ten View Member Profile	Nov 18 2003, 04:25 AM Post #19
Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826	Why the are margins so thin for video games? I've noticed Borders stocking more RPG's than ever (due perhaps to the popularity of Forgotten Realms books?) and wondered why they didn't also have video games (DVDs, Music, Books, and Coffee). That led me to wonder why Gaming Stores don't. When I win the lottery... Have RPG's outside the video industry experienced a general increase in sales since online RPG's such as Everquest have become popular? What about since the availability of the Internet in general?

Pistons

Nov 18 2003, 02:23 PM

Post #20

Not Cameron Diaz

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QUOTE (Kanada Ten)

I've noticed Borders stocking more RPG's than ever (due perhaps to the popularity of Forgotten Realms books?)
[snippity]
Have RPG's outside the video industry experienced a general increase in sales since online RPG's such as Everquest have become popular?

What about since the availability of the Internet in general?

Borders has been carrying RPG's for at least several years now (if not more); it's just that various locations may carry more than others due to their managers' cluefulness. The one near me has expanded their selection a little bit this year, but since most of the expanding has been d20 or OGL products, it's not much of an expansion if you really think about it. You're just not going to get as much variety as you would a gaming store.

As for RPG's popularity and their relation to the 'net, this is something that's been debated for a while even among "industry pundits" (boy, that's funny... :)). Sure there's numbers, but they're not hard and fast at all and subject to RPG popularity in a given region, how good the local store is (good stores attract more business, bad ones chase it off), and so on. While the 'net and online games can be a gateway, they can also be a replacement. Some folks don't have the patience or desire for a tabletop pencil and paper experience. Others simply have no idea what it's about until they play online, and then discover RPG's (in general, or just discover that they're not so "nerdy" or "evil" as they might have thought).

Because of that, I'm of the opinion that it balances out. I have no proof of course; it's not a terribly informed opinion, but it's all I've got. :)

Bull View Member Profile	Nov 18 2003, 06:32 PM Post #21
Grumpy Old Ork Decker Group: Admin Posts: 3,794 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Orwell, Ohio Member No.: 50	Re: Video Games Honestly, the profit margins aren't quite as bad as Adam says on new video games. From what I've picked up from my time at Babbage's and now GameStop, it's probably comparable to any other retail market. The problem lies in the second part of what he said though... Games drop in price, sometimes very, very fast. You can see a 50 game drop to $30 in less than 2 months. And any copies that you didn't sell for full price, you've now lost all your profit margin on. With video game systems it's much, much worse though. That's where stores make no profit, and why you almost never see a console system "on sale". Retailers sell consoles out of need, to help move the games themselves. Not for profit. Hell, the game companies themselves make little to no profit on a console (The PS2 was actually sold at a loss for at least the first 6 months or so. A loss to Sony themselves, not the distributors and retailers.) And to further it a bit more... The biggest reason game stores rarely carry any kind of game stuff is that you would have to deal with yet another distributor, since Comic and RPG/CCG distributors don't deal in them. Big pain in the ass all around. Bull

Eldritch View Member Profile	Nov 18 2003, 09:32 PM Post #22
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 511 Joined: 19-August 02 Member No.: 3,139	New subject: Is there an online source of RPG industry data? Things like game sales, company sales, market share, etc? I've been out of the loop for quite a bit, and am curious as to where everyone stands in relation to the competition. Another Question: Play testing/reading.: I know you use play testers to try out new products, but what about readers? Someone that knows the system and setting that just reads the product for errors or inconsistancies? And if you do use test readers, how can someone get involved? Thanks!

Adam

Nov 18 2003, 10:26 PM

Post #23

Prime Runner

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QUOTE

Is there an online source of RPG industry data? Things like game sales, company sales, market share, etc?

No. Very few companies release this sort of information publically or semi-publically.

QUOTE

I know you use play testers to try out new products, but what about readers? Someone that knows the system and setting that just reads the product for errors or inconsistancies? And if you do use test readers, how can someone get involved?

This depends on the company. Most often if they have some form of open playtesting they mention it on their website.

Eldritch View Member Profile	Nov 18 2003, 10:40 PM Post #24
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 511 Joined: 19-August 02 Member No.: 3,139	Thanks!

Adam View Member Profile	Jan 28 2004, 03:23 PM Post #25
Prime Runner Group: Retired Admins Posts: 3,929 Joined: 26-February 02 From: .ca Member No.: 51	I'm surprised this thread didn't get more responses. Anyone else have further questions or follow-ups?

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