 Augmentation Q&A, Ask the developers and the authors |
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 Aug 3 2007, 06:05 PM
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#326
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Genuine Artificial Intelligence  Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715  |
Hehe. IMHO, the path of maximum sanity is to decide that the term "cultured bioware" is just a holdover from previous editions. With bioware on the same greek letter scale as cyberware, it's a useless term, and everything will go a whole lot more smoothly if we just forget about it. :-) |
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Aug 3 2007, 06:15 PM
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#327
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 138 Joined: 1-September 02 From: France Member No.: 3,208 |
That's a flaw in itself. It's too bad that kind of Quality you take as a player, you will for non roleplay reason. In other word, that's a Deus ex machina thing imposed on your character for a player reasoning. I would have written this as something one may develop after large amount of cybersurgeries for example. One can still have it at character creation (with the appropriate, but simple, background) but it can also develop it along the way; and both the player and the character are realistically in-synch with each other. It's also nicer on characters created before Augmentation was released. |
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Aug 3 2007, 06:21 PM
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#328
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 212 Joined: 30-November 04 Member No.: 6,858 |
No reason why that can't happen, if the player can save 60 points of karma. |
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Aug 3 2007, 06:31 PM
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#329
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 360 Joined: 6-September 02 Member No.: 3,234 |
Frank, your game-lingo semantic analysis is nice, informed, and eloquent about the fine points of game lingo, but sorry I fear it fails to address my point: I was not arguing about the meaning of the wording, I was putting the justification (or lack of it) into question for the interpretation you give of the rule. Taken what Type O is purported to do, the in-game biological justification this Quality is given, the way bioware is supposed to work, and the fact that neural bioware does exist in grades, the more we discuss this point, the more I get convinced that it is illogical for Type O to affect non-neural bioware and not neural bioware. Either grade A-D neural bioware does not exist, or Type O benefits it as well.
Even more, the more we discuss this point, the more I come to the realization and get convinced that one needs to be more radical: this distinction between somatic and neural bioware is an ugly legacy bit that is quite contradictory with real human biology, unnecessarily complicates game bookkeping, and adds really nothing to the game. Everything just flows smoother if this silly "cultured" stuff is scrapped. Bioware is bioware, it just comes in basic or standard grade, and A-D grades that do reflect increasingly perfect matching with the biology of of the individual, whatever place of the body you do implant it, nervous system or elsewhere. It is built in just the same way, it gets implanted and removed just the same way, works the same way, and affects Essence just the same way. The other way just adds bureaucratic madness to the game that needs triple somersaults from RL biology to be justified. And there is no real game need to do that, since cyberware, nonoware and geneware work quite fine and nicely without this stupid "cultured" distinction. If a writer or GM wants to make neural bioware more precious, just tinker with prices, Availability, or both. If this needs to be a house rule, so be it. It just brings the way bioware has evolved between editions to its final, natural consequences, doing away with legacy rules. |
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Aug 3 2007, 06:49 PM
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#330
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,883 Joined: 16-December 06 Member No.: 10,386 |
I already covered that... Tissue matching is the tip of the iceberg for making the body accept neural bioware. It's a bare minimum requirement because neural 'ware is so complex. The brain is plastic; in real life people have lost brain function in certain mental areas and then regained much of it because the brain rerouted itself to compensate. It literally changes itself around all the time. Brain plasticity is part of how children learn so easily at young ages. Theoretically, you could clone a brain from someone's own tissues, cram it in their skull and it wouldn't do a damned thing even if you kept the body from rejecting it because it's a blank slate. The brain models itself after it's own needs; it's not like a muscle where you connect this end to that end and stuff contracts and then your arm moves. Neural 'ware is tailored from day one to do a specific job and the higher grades would be tailored to mesh so well with the rest of your grey matter that your body would have to do a minimum of adaptation to make everything run smoothly rather than bombard you with random gibberish that the rest of your body doesn't know how to handle yet. It's hardly any more abstract than "Uh, the metal bits on this delta cyber arm are friendlier than the metal bits on that alpha arm." Honestly though, this has gone from questions about how the system works to "I think you guys were wrong to do it this way because it's not elegant." I also don't see how this clashes with human biology; by the logic Wanderer is using, it's like saying "We can make skin grafts for people just fine; we'll just do a brain transplant with the same techniques and everything will work out great." |
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Aug 3 2007, 07:02 PM
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#331
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Wanderer and PlatonicPimp:
Cultured Ware must be made for the person in question. There is no resale market of cultured ware because every set of cultured ware is unique. It is not just unique in terms of biochemical signals and surface proteins, but also unique in terms of wiring. Your brain isn't a factory-made unit that is physically identical to other brains and running different "software" that makes you a unique individual. The wiring is the software and it is more than anything else what makes you a unique snow flake. Now the question of how integrated that neural connectivity is will remain an open one. A cerebral booster could be a largely self-contained sub unit that connected to the existing neural structure in some minimally effective fashion (satndard grade). It could also be deeply integrated on every level of the brain connecting continuously to every part of the central nervous system (delta). Or something in between. Just because something is grown from your cells doesn't necessarily mean that it fits well into your body. Unless of course, you're starting with something that is already essentially a symbiote like a liver - in which case it actually does mean that. Shrug. -Frank |
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Aug 3 2007, 07:02 PM
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#332
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 360 Joined: 6-September 02 Member No.: 3,234 |
It is quite true that the brain is plastic as you state it (and a host of recent discoveries do indicate that it is far more plastic and capable of self-repairing even in adulthood, than it was thought in the past), but it is quite difficult to use this as a justification to make neural bioware more likely to create more of a damage to holistic integrity, or needing special cultured cells from the subject itself, quite the contrary. Following this line of thought, the worst neural bioware can do if integration does not work smoothily, it is that the new cells do not perform as best as they could. It is mostly a matter of giving the right stimuli and training to have new cells integrate with old cells perfectly. |
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Aug 3 2007, 07:08 PM
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#333
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,883 Joined: 16-December 06 Member No.: 10,386 |
Okay. So the brain retrains the new cells. What does that do? Would you like to buy some rating 3 Synaptic Boosters and then have your brain decide to reroute those expensive new cells to store all those awesome memories of last week's Combat Biker episode just because it doesn't know what else to do with it? I would think it'd it'd be easier to have the Delta Clinic experts go in and set everything up so your brain thinks reacting 4 times as fast as the average man is perfectly normal and that everything is already running A-OK rather than just doing the standard grade job and making your brain reshape itself without changing around the new hardware. Honestly, I don't see why you're fighting the idea that tailoring bioware to interfere as little as possible is beneficial. It's exactly the same justification used for every other chunk of 'ware in the game.
[EDIT] What the devs did isn't any different than just giving a list of 'ware that doesn't work with Type O or used 'ware, except they just call it cultured rather than non-type o compliant. |
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Aug 3 2007, 08:04 PM
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#334
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,219 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lofwyr's stomach. Member No.: 1,320 |
So now we have different meanings of deltaware for basic and cultured bioware. Basic Bioware becomes higher grade the better it matches the target's biochemistry and genome. Integration has nothing to do with it (or else the type O wouldn't work at all, since it's all about biochem matching). But culuted bioware determines grade based on integration, not biochem.
Do I have it? does deltaware mean an entirely different thing for cultured bioware than it does for basic bioware? |
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Aug 3 2007, 08:13 PM
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#335
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,883 Joined: 16-December 06 Member No.: 10,386 |
Yeah, that's how I figure it, fluff-wise.
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Aug 4 2007, 12:20 AM
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#336
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,246 Joined: 8-June 07 Member No.: 11,869 |
I was just reading the Augmentation preview, good stuff.
However, one question: Why does an Orientation System cost so much and cost a full capacity point when it's included free with the commlink? Why does SR4 p. 318 and 227-328 say that a commlink only uses "wireless" navigation, but a GPS navigation system is needed when wireless is unavailable such as in wilderness areas. I'm no doctor, but doesn't GPS use satellites and wireless transmissions? And isn't wireless communication everywhere (except underground or in otherwise blocked areas) due to satellites? So where could GPS navigation possibly work that "wireless navigation" could not? |
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Aug 4 2007, 12:40 AM
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#337
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
The Grid provides an internal navigation setup for everyone inside of it. GPS satelites orbit the planet and project location information to every point on it.
-Frank |
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Aug 4 2007, 01:16 AM
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#338
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
It's all a bit technical, but a Comlink is perfectly able to use satellite GPS (or receive FM, AM etc.)... it's a soft-radio, after all.
The only real advantage of an Orientation System is the gyroscope compass that gives you an absolute direction reference. |
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Aug 4 2007, 01:35 AM
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#339
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
The advantages of an Orientation System are the auto-mapping features as well as what is doubtlessly going to be the bonuses received when used with a Tactical Computer in Arsenal.
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Aug 4 2007, 01:35 AM
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#340
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 663 Joined: 30-June 06 From: Memphis, TN Member No.: 8,811 |
OK, as no one else has asked it...
How much will a body get you from an organ jacker? I'm assuming that the more intact the more it's worth. Also how long to I have to get the body to one before it unsellable? And if they happen to have cyber or bio do I use the basic 30% fencing price added to the price of the body? I can imagine that a street sam that has been mindfried by a mage going for a pretty hefty sum. Assuming that they spent 100K on their cyber/bio that's 30K to the guy who brought him in. That's a YEAR low lifestyle with 6K left over to party with in a big way. Not including how much you get for the rest of him. :eek: All I'm thinking now is that if you have a player who spent all their money on chrome and bio and lives a low or squatter lifestyle they might not want to advertise that to much. Otherwise people will be coming for MILES around just to kill them. Its even worth 10K to hire a good combat mage for the night to help minimize breakage. *EDIT* Also can you put autoinjectors anywhere? And it looks like they take no capacity? |
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Aug 4 2007, 01:35 AM
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#341
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 251 Joined: 29-April 02 Member No.: 2,659 |
The inertial compass works inside wi-fi shielded corporate properties, underground, etc. GPS doesn't.
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Aug 4 2007, 02:08 AM
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#342
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
According to Glenn Swayne:
-Frank |
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Aug 4 2007, 02:14 AM
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#343
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,246 Joined: 8-June 07 Member No.: 11,869 |
Ah, miniaturized gyroscope = inertial navigator that can be used inside wifi blocked areas, gotcha. Thx.
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Aug 4 2007, 02:15 AM
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#344
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 663 Joined: 30-June 06 From: Memphis, TN Member No.: 8,811 |
So in my example the sam with 100K in cyber will net you 5K from the organ jacker. Not great, but not that bad. It will keep your standard ganger in style of a few months. And I'm assuming the 3 :nuyen: is what I get if I don't get the body there in a timely manner. What is it worth if its other than "Food Grade" human? The fluff talks about a few hundred :nuyen: |
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Aug 4 2007, 02:17 AM
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#345
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
75kg * 3-nuyen = 225-nuyen = "a few hundred nuyen." :)
That aside, you're basically getting them to dispose a body for you. In all believability, you should be paying them for the service with the organlegging being the reason why they'd take it off your hands, not the other way around. Be happy it works as it does. :) |
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Aug 4 2007, 02:21 AM
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#346
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 663 Joined: 30-June 06 From: Memphis, TN Member No.: 8,811 |
Still think it should be a bit higher, but I guess that's the real reason why there are no fat guys in the Barrens. I wonder if metatype and age affect the price. I'm sure that 3 :nuyen: from chain smoking and nova coke addict "Bob the Hobo" is fine. But that 30 year old elf who jogs 15 miles a day and only eats organic meals would probably go for much higher. |
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Aug 4 2007, 02:21 AM
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#347
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,748 Joined: 5-July 02 Member No.: 2,935 |
Prices vary. A zobop might pay more if it's fresh and reasonably intact.
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Aug 4 2007, 11:25 AM
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#348
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Tactical 'Computers' are in Unwired, and possibly just a program, running on a comlink. On the other Hand, Mapsofts feature the automapping stuff themselves, and anyone with an Edit program loaded ino his commlink can do the same. And of course, if you got cybereyes, cameras, ultrasound or stuff, they are created pretty much automatically, as is direction reference. |
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Aug 4 2007, 12:30 PM
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#349
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Yes, if you sit there and manually edit it all in, hoping you get the details just right. Each and every step of the way.
An Orientation System makes accurate Mapsofts, and if you have a Radar Sensor, it makes them on the fly for rooms you haven't even stepped into yet. And regardless of what book it's going to be in, I can practically guarantee you that a Tactical Computer (which, if anything, is going to be a specialized commlink/transciever rather than "just a program") is going to gain benefits from the highly detailed, highly accurate, highly up-to-date information an Orientation System provides. They've already proven that they're splitting concepts up between books (see: Jarheads). Sitting around whining about how "useless" something is because you haven't seen the full execution is pretty lame. |
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Aug 4 2007, 12:51 PM
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#350
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
No. You can set programs to auto-run. See Sniffer, Browse, etc.
No. Per RAW, it only comes with an integrated editor program that allows the user to create maps. Mapsofts, on the other hand, automatically update themselves per RAW.
Synner seems to disagree.
No. The only thing proven is that they implement watered down versions like Increased Sensitivity, which is completely superseded by Audio Enhancement - for the sake of diversity. That being said, having an implanted gyroscope and thus +2 to navigation tests is quite not 'useless'. |
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