 Augmentation Q&A, Ask the developers and the authors |
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 Aug 4 2007, 05:35 PM
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#351
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Runner  Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185  |
Think of it this way: All bioware (standard and cultured) becomes higher grade the better it matches the target's biochemistry, genome and immune system tags. "Integration" has everything everything to do with it. Type O only has to do with biological integration with the existing metabolism, but the various grades don't just represent biological integration, they represent neurological integration too (as well as other things such as the range of integration processes used). Cultured bioware also demands neurological integration, in fact, it requires it or it won't work. By that I don't just mean tying the new bioware into the neural network, but also reinforcing and enhancing synaptic links, biochemical transmitters, overriding biological limitations to neural stimuli, stimulating new neural pathways essencial to that bioware, reducing conflicts in central nervous system stimuli relay, etc - this is required to handle the augmented feedback, expanded neural activity, and biostress introduced to the neurological system by cultured bioware. This "neurological integration" needs to be custom tailored to a specific user because no two nervous systems are identical and this is what renders it useless. This neurological integration can be performed to varying degrees (hence grades) but is essential to cultured bioware. Type O helps with the biological integration and not with the neurological integration which is what makes Cultured Bioware unique. So it's not that Type O doesn't affect Cultured Bioware, but that while it might aid the metabolic integration, that's only a part (the lesser one) of the equation and it doesn't affect the neurological integration which is essential to make Cultured Bioware work. Rather than saying it works partially, its simpler to say that that since neurological integration is essential. A secondary effect of Culture Bioware's requirement is that it is never available Second hand.
See above. |
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Aug 4 2007, 05:45 PM
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#352
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,219 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lofwyr's stomach. Member No.: 1,320 |
Sorry, developers, but I don't quite buy it. To my thinking, the genome mathcing would be what creates the grades in all circumstances, and the special neurological integreation is waht makes cultured bioware need to be custom made. So no cultured bioware is off the shelf, because it has to be tailored to your neurology in order to function. But can still match your genome less or more.
The only difference would be that type O would still work on cultured bioware. Anyway, this is my house rule from here on in, others feel free to use it. |
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Aug 4 2007, 05:53 PM
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#353
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 138 Joined: 1-September 02 From: France Member No.: 3,208 |
Uh, can you rephrase that? |
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Aug 4 2007, 05:56 PM
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#354
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
When you buy a datajack at list price you buy the implantation of the datajack, not a datajack in a tray covered with blood. So when you do turn over a datajack that you've liberated from an opponent, what you're providing is actually much less than what the book offers for 500 :nuyen: So it's not just that you're getting a fenced share of the cost of the item - you're literally providing less than the item listed in the book - so the price you get in return is proportionately less. -Frank |
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Aug 4 2007, 06:12 PM
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#355
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
Okay, as long as you understand this interpretation is not actually stated anywhere in the rules. |
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Aug 4 2007, 06:16 PM
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#356
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
Not really. What AR is designed to do is overlay something over your normal senses, there is no sensory override function built in. So, while it won't stop you smelling something or let you tune it down, you could "play" a stronger flower scent to cover the smell. To use the Virtual Weather example, you could use it to make a winter's day feel sunny and warm, but if it starts raining you'll still feel the cold rain on your skin (as well as the warm breeze). Only VR normally offers sensory override (basically the old RAS override).
As written there is no reason for it not to. Check with your gamemaster.
The answers are yes and yes respectively. We playtested both and the decided that the hit technomancers take to Resonance from cyberware (particularly the encephalon at rating 2) offsets most potentially unbalancing elements and that it wasn't worth introducing that special case exception. Any gamemaster who finds the combos particularly unbalancing could just house rule them out but we didn't find anything particularly broken with the respective bonii. |
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Aug 4 2007, 06:38 PM
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#357
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 138 Joined: 1-September 02 From: France Member No.: 3,208 |
Uh, you mean both the product and the medical cost for implantation. I didn't know that... you have a source? |
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Aug 4 2007, 11:23 PM
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#358
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,246 Joined: 8-June 07 Member No.: 11,869 |
It's true the cost of the implant includes the cost of the implantation procedure. However you could also assume that the cost of the implantation procedure is as cheap and inconsequential as getting a body piercing in 2007. So with that understanding, you're right back at getting full price for used cyberware (minus the discount for used, stolen, criminal, etc).
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Aug 4 2007, 11:41 PM
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#359
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
The rules in this game are entirely abstract. You just have to be creative about how you interpret some things.
For cyberware, the costs include the 'ware and the procedures to get it installed. When it comes to selling, it might simply reflect that implants have a higher resell value in the shadows than most other items do. Nothing changes mechanically, you're still getting less than the full retail value of the tiem, you're simply explaining how the surgery costs can also be covered. |
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Aug 5 2007, 05:01 AM
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#360
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 138 Joined: 1-September 02 From: France Member No.: 3,208 |
Thanks, but I wasn't looking for what to do in my personal campaigns. I obviously missed something from the SR4 rulebook, and I was looking for a specific source page for it :)
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Aug 5 2007, 06:52 AM
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#361
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Oh yeah. Page 303, lower right hand corner. Cost of the implant depends upon grade. Not the cost of the object to be implanted - you are actually buying it into your body for the listed price. -Frank |
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Aug 5 2007, 11:36 AM
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#362
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Target Group: Members Posts: 95 Joined: 21-June 04 From: Cologne, Germany Member No.: 6,429 |
But a Simsense Booster would have no effect on a technomancer with Overclocking, right? Besides the essence loss, of course. |
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Aug 5 2007, 12:02 PM
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#363
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
That's what the 4 IP limit is for...
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Aug 5 2007, 12:29 PM
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#364
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
there is a hard limit there? never noticed...
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Aug 5 2007, 12:57 PM
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#365
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Target Group: Members Posts: 95 Joined: 21-June 04 From: Cologne, Germany Member No.: 6,429 |
Right there in the description of the Simsense Booster.
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Aug 5 2007, 01:12 PM
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#366
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 360 Joined: 6-September 02 Member No.: 3,234 |
I eagerly add my vote to PlatonicPlimp's interpretation of the rules. He has explained my way of seeing the whole Type O-neural bioware issue better than I could. If this need to be a house rule, let it be. In addition not to buying the in-game questionable biological justification for the canon rule you developers proffer, I also have to state strong disagreement with the apparent game philosophy choices behind it. The separateness between somatic and neural bioware is something that needs to be downplayed as much as possible, not emphasized, since it is an ugly legacy rule that unnecessarily complicates character creation and bookkeeping of Augmented characters, and directly comes from the previous editions' same confusing rules mess that had wholly separate Essence and Bio Index tracks (UGH!!), rules for their effects, and systems to reduce their impact. The only thing that indeed makes sense is that neural bioware must be custom-made and cannot be second hand, this is easy to do and it's all the separate rule that the stuff needs. No need for separate and different biological integration grades and methods and special favored biology merits for somatic and neural bioware that only complicate life for players and GMs of Augmented characters and add unnecessary bureaucracy to the game. |
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Aug 5 2007, 01:24 PM
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#367
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
hmm, it may well be that im getting rusty... |
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Aug 5 2007, 03:20 PM
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#368
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,883 Joined: 16-December 06 Member No.: 10,386 |
Cultured bioware has virtually no effect on grades Wanderer. There's no special work involved with getting different grades of cultured bioware just because they call it cultured. From a pure rules standpoint, there's really only three differences between cultured and standard bioware. Cultured means the ware does not benefit from type O and it can not be bought of the shelf and it cannot be transplanted. Those are the only differences worth noting. Compared to essence holes and a 50% discount that flip flops when your bio to cyber ratio changes, keeping track of that is child's play.
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Aug 5 2007, 03:48 PM
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#369
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
it seems the cultured vs basic bioware is a mental holdover for players of SR3...
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Aug 5 2007, 04:03 PM
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#370
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Even that's only 2 differences. Type O only applies to things that are off the shelf (because those things are already made with your cell line essentially). Since cultured ware does not appear on shelves, there's nothing for type o to apply to. -Frank |
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Aug 5 2007, 04:55 PM
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#371
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,219 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lofwyr's stomach. Member No.: 1,320 |
There's a third difference, though, and that is that they have different justifications for how higher grades work. Of the shelf grades are based on how compatable with the target's genome they are. By that definition of grade, all cultured bioware should be delta. But the game still wants different grades of cultured ware, so cultured ware gets an entirely separate justification for grades, based on integration. I find that inelegant, especially since you could reverse the justifications on cultured bioware, unify what constitutes higher grades across the board, and the only game effect it would have is to allow a 30(!) point quality to apply to a couple dozen more implants.
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Aug 5 2007, 05:22 PM
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#372
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
This is incorrect. You will find no definition of bioware grades that says that. You will find definitions that state that higher grades equal better matching to the subjects physiology and better protein-matched. Only delta grade is matched at the genetic level. What seems to be confusing is that this is exactly the same whether you're implanting basic bioware or cultured bioware. Grades are unified across the board, they are all about integration and invasiveness, though not just the biological matching of tissues, but the various procedures and treatments that are involved in the body accepting and self-regulating the new organs. Cultured bioware does not have to be gene-matched (unless it is delta), what it does need to be is adjusted to the user's neurological system (and the system to it).
No, because as I've indicated above physiological matching isn't necessarily limited to tissue matching via vat-grown genes (though that helps) - there are other bodily systems and functions that have to be adjusted to integrate the new organ (regardless of whether its cultured or standard).
Actually this would extend the quality to less than 10 other implants. |
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Aug 5 2007, 05:34 PM
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#373
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,883 Joined: 16-December 06 Member No.: 10,386 |
Forbidding second-hand cultured 'ware and Type O benefits is hardly a trivial consequence. As a group, the cultured bioware in the game are all balanced and powerful enough where they bear strong consideration for pretty much any archetype without benefiting from Type O or getting a 50% cost reduction for being bought used. A used Synaptic Booster 3 would cost 1.8 essence and only 120,000 nuyen. For maximum initiative passes and 3 reaction! Type O Synaptic 3 would be max passes and 3 reaction for 240k and less than a full essence point. Hell, in my games the simple fact that you don't need to somehow get access to a Delta Clinic to get delta-grade bioware could probably be worth a 5 point quality alone, even if you still had to pay the full nuyen for Delta grade, since it's not unreasonable to expect a contact willing to get you into such a clinic from day 1 to cost at least 10 bps.
You are right about one thing: the cultured designation really didn't mean much of anything until Type O came in. Actually, if you want to get real technical about it, it didn't actually accomplish -anything- official until Aug came out, because there weren't any second-hand rules in yet either. I suspect that this is by design. It let them balance powerful 'ware like Synaptic Boosters, Reflex Recorders and Pain editors without causing some massive power bloat when they put second-hand rules and Type O into the game. Just speculation on my part, but it makes enough sense that I've suspected cultured 'ware would be used like this ever since I first got my hands on the SR4 BBB . |
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Aug 5 2007, 08:10 PM
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#374
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 |
I think that because they specified that second hand does not work with cultured bioware, it doesn't.
I also think that because they didn't specify that type o doesn't work with cultured bioware, it does.
Grades of 'ware are standard, alpha, beta and delta. What type O tells me is that standard is treated as delta for someone with type O. What second hand tells me, is that alpha, beta, delta and cultured can't be gotten second hand. |
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Aug 5 2007, 08:27 PM
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#375
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Yep.
Whoa there, what?[ Basic Bioware is a specific list of Bioware. It's a list that does not include Cultured Bioware. The Type O quality tells you exactly what it applies to - Basic Bioware. It does not say that it applies to Cultured Biware, it does not say that it applies to Cosmetic Cyberware, it does not sya that it applies to Nanoware, it just applies to Basic Bioware. Not other things. What is hard to understand about that?
Easy there, you're going to lose your reputatation for accuracy with that kind of hyperbole. It would extend the quality to exactly 10 implants:
:) -Frank |
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