 Augmentation Q&A, Ask the developers and the authors |
  |
 Aug 5 2007, 08:36 PM
Post
#376
|
|
|
Runner  Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185  |
Okay, okay, I was off by one (thermosenses for the record). Sheesh.
|
 |
 
|
|
Aug 5 2007, 08:40 PM
Post
#377
|
|
|
panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
the devil is in the details ;)
|
|
|
|
|
Aug 5 2007, 08:43 PM
Post
#378
|
|||
|
Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,148 Joined: 27-February 06 From: UCAS Member No.: 8,314 |
It seems to be less about being difficult to understand and more about nomenclature. The list of non-cultured bioware is labeled "Basic" in only two places: the table of bioware in SR4, and the table of bioware in Augmentation. Further muddying the waters is the fact that the term "basic" is used in many places in Augmentation to describe the grade of cyberware and bioware that is described as "standard" in the table in SR4. To top it off, the list of new non-cultured bioware in Augmentation starts with the heading, "Standard Bioware." I, for one, can understand the confusion. This may be something that could be addressed in errata, perhaps making changes so that the term "basic bioware" is used only to describe non-cultured bioware and "standard bioware" to describe its grade. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Aug 5 2007, 08:58 PM
Post
#379
|
|||
|
Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Until Echolocation hits the table correctly... it is described as neural ware, but classed as basic... same goes for Enhanced Pheromone Receptor, Hearing Enhancement and Tactile Sensitivity. If your want to keep a straight face when telling why Type O does not extend to cultered bioware, because it is modifying the nerves and stuff... fix those. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Aug 5 2007, 10:36 PM
Post
#380
|
|||||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 138 Joined: 1-September 02 From: France Member No.: 3,208 |
Erh... doesn't think so. Implant seems to refer more often to the object, than the implantation itself. One example:
And even not a ST quote. And I don't remember a rule in Augmentation to modulate the price of implants depending of the quality of the implantation. |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Aug 6 2007, 01:05 AM
Post
#381
|
|||
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,219 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lofwyr's stomach. Member No.: 1,320 |
Yes, that is exactly what I was trying to say. So then WHY doesn't type O apply to cultured ware? It's only 10 implants, it doesn't strain credibility, and it certainly doesn't make type O broken. I'll leave it to others to argue the wording of the rules (which is vague on the subject) and instead question the intent. Is there a solid game balance reason to disclude cultured bioware from benifiting from type O? Because on it's own the fluff reasoning isn't holding water. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Aug 6 2007, 01:39 AM
Post
#382
|
|||
|
Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Because there are no off-the-rack versions of those implants for it to apply to. -Frank |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Aug 6 2007, 01:57 AM
Post
#383
|
|
|
Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Try looking at it this way:
Type O makes implants that are Type O fit you like they were custom made for you. Because, in effect, they were. Cultured Bioware, on the other hand, isn't made from Type O materials by default; they're custom made for you on demand. Thus their Essence cost already covers that whether you were Type O, Type A, or Type Whogivesacrap. |
|
|
|
|
Aug 6 2007, 02:46 AM
Post
#384
|
|
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,219 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lofwyr's stomach. Member No.: 1,320 |
No, I've heard you say all that. And I've heard and given other interpretations, and any of them might make sense. I'm asking for a Gamist reason why.
Because there is "off the shelf" cultured ware. It's the lowest grade. If there are grades of bioware at all, and if the same factors determine what grade is for both cultured and basic bioware, then type O would logically work for both. Put another way, if all cultured bioware is created from the user's own flesh, then it's ALL deltaware, by the explanation of what deltaware means. If it's NOT grown from the user's own flesh by default, then type O should convert it to deltaware. The only way out of this is to say that deltaware for cultured bioware means something different than it does for basic bioware, and I'll only buy such an inelegant explanation if there is a solid game balance reason. |
|
|
|
|
Aug 6 2007, 03:17 AM
Post
#385
|
|||
|
Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Because most of the cool shit is included in that list of 10 Cultured Bioware items. ;) |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Aug 6 2007, 03:29 AM
Post
#386
|
|
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,219 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lofwyr's stomach. Member No.: 1,320 |
Then reduce the cost of type O, because for 30 damn points I better get the cool shit.
|
|
|
|
|
Aug 6 2007, 03:29 AM
Post
#387
|
|
|
Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,883 Joined: 16-December 06 Member No.: 10,386 |
I truly believe my GM would crap himself if they allowed Type O to affect Synaptic boosters and Reflex Recorders, I truly do. I don't care if it's 50+ BP all said and done, any campaign expected to go beyond a half dozen runs or so would start with me taking Adept, Muscle Toners, Type O and Synaptic 2. And if it cost less than 30 points, I'd be making all my mages with Type O, it's that good.
|
|
|
|
|
Aug 6 2007, 03:47 AM
Post
#388
|
|
|
panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
from what i gather, type O, or standard bioware, is made based on cells that are not rejected by any body. at first i thought the name came from blood type O but that's not correct.
the way i understand the quality is that when you have it, your body's cells happens to have the same kind of non-rejective property. kinda like how a person with type O blood can take any type iirc. therefor, standard bioware, for all intents, becomes cultured in your body. but this is all biology. essence is more then that. and thats where the grades come in imo. |
|
|
|
|
Aug 6 2007, 03:53 AM
Post
#389
|
|
|
Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 |
type o is from type o blood. Type o blood is the "universal donor" because it can go into anyone without being rejected and attacked. AB blood is the universal receiver, because it will accept, O, A, B, or AB blood.
Yes, with the quality, your body will take the off the shelf bioware as its own organs. For all intents, the 'ware becomes deltaware, because thats what the quality says. As far as I know, cultured ware doesn't state that its grades are because of a different process than basic ware. It just says it has the same grades. Which tells me that they are done the same way. While, cultured ware still would have to be grown to match the neural structure, it would be easy to match the type to the base used by basic bioware. Why? Because you wouldn't need any samples, you could merely tell/show them that you area type o, and they could use the same "off the rack" materials to grow the neural stuff, matching the neurals to the customer. It doesn't mean the 'ware wouldn't match just as well. |
|
|
|
|
Aug 6 2007, 03:57 AM
Post
#390
|
|
|
panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
deltaware? when did cultured equal delta?
|
|
|
|
|
Aug 6 2007, 03:59 AM
Post
#391
|
|
|
Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 |
It doesn't. Why? Because you can have delta cultured ware.
|
|
|
|
|
Aug 6 2007, 04:05 AM
Post
#392
|
|
|
panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
never mind, i walked into he same trap that i was warning about. the one about thinking that cultured bioware is anyhing more then a fluff label these sr4 days.
|
|
|
|
|
Aug 6 2007, 09:43 AM
Post
#393
|
|
|
Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
One they sometimes missed, which makes the Type O quality limitation right now as sensible as:
It applies only to Bodyware, not Headware. |
|
|
|
|
Aug 6 2007, 11:41 AM
Post
#394
|
|||
|
Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
Some confusion here. "Cultured bioware" designation is not interchangeable with "neural bioware" (though the vast majority of it is in fact neural augmentation). What distinguishes cultured bioware isn't that it is neural ware, but that it requires the bioware be grown from the user's own cells to even work (note that this doesn't necessarily mean it is perfectly DNA-matched as some have suggested, because the alterations made to the cell culture to grow into the bioware template will alter the DNA to some extent). Most bioware requires neural rewiring to some extent, some of it quite extensive. The bioware you have quoted all features some level of neural enhancement but do not require the matching intrinsic to Cultured Bioware. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Aug 6 2007, 11:49 AM
Post
#395
|
|||||||||||
|
Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Not on my side, sorry.
The Augmention rules are pretty straight-forward on that: 'neural bioware - aka cultured bioware'. Thus: If it's neural - it's cultured.
And that characteristic would be, other than neural integration? Actually, Augmention rules tell us that: It 'must be matched to the patient's physiology, particularly his brain and nervous system.'
Actually, no other basic implants other than those quoted are featureing nerve modification in it's description.
Echolocation is Cultured Bioware par excellence: It involves modification of the brain. Only. Yes, I know - changing the layout sucks. But it's grouped wrong, plain and simple. The rest is disputable, but the wording should focus less on neurology if it remains Basic Bioware. |
||||||||||
|
|
|
||||||||||
|
Aug 6 2007, 12:11 PM
Post
#396
|
|
|
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,677 Joined: 5-June 03 Member No.: 4,689 |
Speaking of genetic (and apologies if I missed this question already having been asked):
Is geneware available in grades? Btw, for the potential side effects of off-the-shelf roll-of-the-dice temporary effect gene cocktails, much more drastic consequences could safely have been written in than a months-long cancer, especially since the description suggests the same basic methodology as current attempts at gene therapy. (What does borrowed time mean to a shadowrunner, after all? Possibly little enough that the original flaw was scrapped?) |
|
|
|
|
Aug 6 2007, 12:15 PM
Post
#397
|
|||
|
Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
See p. 87, 'Geneware, Essence and Grades': Nope. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Aug 6 2007, 12:35 PM
Post
#398
|
|
|
panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
now that i have slept on it, it seems that what cultured bioware is a victim of is bad wording from end to end.
while basic/standard bioware can be put into almost anyone with little work, hell it can be put on ice and stored by the sound of it, cultured is so invasive that even in its simplest form it needs to be closer to the patients body then basic could even dream of, to not kill him on the spot. so i suspect that one cant compare basic delta bio with cultured delta bio. while they operate along the same rules, biology, one is so alien to the patient body that unless its carefully matched on the spot, he is dead. then comes more adaption on top of that in the form of the grades. when they talk about type O its not like type O is a perfect match for every type O quality person out there. it just happens that both the bioware and the patient body is very accepting of what it comes into contact with. but as cultured is so invasive as it is, even an accepting body has trouble allowing it in. or to attempt to put it in other words, cultured goes deeper then even the deepest basic ;) or, what basic consider delta, cultured may well see as ungraded. |
|
|
|
|
Aug 6 2007, 12:40 PM
Post
#399
|
|||
|
Shooting Target Group: Retired Admins Posts: 1,784 Joined: 28-July 04 From: Cleveland, OH Member No.: 6,522 |
The cost-benefit ratio for adding further options just didn't seem worth it. However, I'd readily concede that the possible negative side effects of failed gene therapy could go on for volumes. It's just a question of deciding what was relevant and appropriate for game use. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Aug 6 2007, 12:55 PM
Post
#400
|
|||||||||||||||||||||
|
Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
The fact that neural ware is essentially cultured bioware doesn't mean the reverse is true.
This does not mean the opposite is true.
That it must be "cultured"? That it is tailored to a specific user's metabolism, neurology and whatever other automatic bodily processes the bioware affects?
Yup, operative word being "physiology" since it goes a long way beyond just the brain and nervous system - those these are particularly important. It means the metabolic processes, biorhythms, brain chemistry, neurochemical carriers, etc have to be in sync too.
You're honestly trying to tell me that Tailored Phermone's are not linked up to the user's central nervous system? Or that Cat's Eyes replacements don't have nerves up to the brain? Or that the Adrenal Pump (which is triggered by stress and emotional states) is not linked up to the emotive sensors of the brain via the nervous system? It has been left unsaid that almost every bioware implant has to have some degree of neural work, no matter how incidental to its function simply because if it didn't it would throw the body's physiological balance out of whack. The difference is exactly that the neural work most bioware requires is localized and incidental to its performance and effect.
In hindsight, I would probably agree with you on Echolocation. |
||||||||||||||||||||
|
|
|
||||||||||||||||||||
|
|
Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: 28th February 2025 - 03:53 AM |
Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.