 Augmentation Q&A, Ask the developers and the authors |
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 Aug 8 2007, 01:50 PM
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#426
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Shooting Target  Group: Retired Admins Posts: 1,784 Joined: 28-July 04 From: Cleveland, OH Member No.: 6,522  |
I'd say just the Genetech from that chapter. To be more specific, going through my notes, it looks like a name may have been changed in one place, but not another. Genetic Heritage really should just refer to Transgenics (p.90-93). |
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Aug 8 2007, 02:08 PM
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#427
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,219 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lofwyr's stomach. Member No.: 1,320 |
Cyberlimb questions answered (but be warned, these are semi-official house rules based on previous conversations in this thread):
The capacity for your cyberhand is already figured in the main book. So if you get a drone hand, it effectively takes up the capacity that your hand normally would. This capacity depends on whether your arm is synthetic or obvious. You can figure out how much capacity is in the lower arm by taking the value from the main book and subtracting the value for the hand. You can figure out the capacity for the upper arm by subtracting the value for the lower arm from the main book from the full cyberlimb. I'd make a table but I'm at work. Actually, I'll make it later when I get home and post it. As far as capacity upgrades to obvious limbs: You can get up to 4 per limb. I'd rule that in the case of arm: 1 is added to the hand, 2 to the lower arm, and 1 to the upper arm. In the case of legs, I'd add 1 to the foot, 1 to the lower leg, and 2 to the upper. I'd let you use the sensors from your drone hand when attached. It does not have the body of the limb, it has the body of the walker drone from the book. |
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Aug 8 2007, 09:49 PM
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#428
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 986 Joined: 29-June 07 Member No.: 12,093 |
Question: Trid Phantasm vs Radar
My reading of this is that Trid Phantasm creates the illusion of physicality. In other words, it seems real. Camouflage and invisibility spells can be seen through by Radar, which after all would just bounce the pulse off you regardless of how light isn't bending around you, but what of Trid Phantasm? Or Physical Double Image? It says that it's insubstantial. So I'm guessing the Double Image will just be plain ignored by Radar? |
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Aug 8 2007, 10:11 PM
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#429
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,650 Joined: 21-July 07 Member No.: 12,328 |
Check out 'Transgenic Alteration' on page 93, specifically the stuff under animal features, which says you can get bioware as genetech. |
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Aug 8 2007, 10:46 PM
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#430
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
...for the purposes of gaining functional Animal Features and nothing more.
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Aug 8 2007, 10:58 PM
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#431
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
After reading it, I now truely hate the Biosculpting rules.
Cosmetic 'cybernetic' modifications don't cost essence. Now suddenly, 'bio' versions that should integrate better by fluff cost essence. But hey - Fiberoptic Hair is listed as one of the essence-free mods in the main book... and in Augmention, it suddenly does. And, what mods: Breaking and resetting bones now costs essence? Sanding down troll dermal deposites does so, too? Oh, and getting cybernetic cat ears costs no essence, but getting biological dog ears is a moderate modification and costs 0,3 points. Great. When does cutting your nails will cost essence? |
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Aug 8 2007, 11:51 PM
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#432
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
In general, "multi-sense" illusions will fool Radar and "single-sense" illusions will not. Double Image will allow bullets and sonic death rays to go through, but it will nonetheless appear to ultrasound and radar recorders as if it were a real person. So yeah, Trid Phantasm, Chaotic World, Bugs, Dream, and Vehicle Mask would all fool a Radar Sense. -Frank |
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Aug 8 2007, 11:57 PM
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#433
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,748 Joined: 5-July 02 Member No.: 2,935 |
Incidentally, single-sense illusions geared toward technological senses can be absolutely hilarious. It works best when the magician can't automatically tell people it's an illusion, but it fucks with players' heads something fierce to have something that registers for one sense but not others.
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Aug 9 2007, 12:08 AM
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#434
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 986 Joined: 29-June 07 Member No.: 12,093 |
I'm trying to convince my GM to let me have technology only spells. Hah, thought you could hide behind an invisibility spell did you?
Thanks Mr. Trollman, that just gives my poor Mage something to use against this Bounty Hunter I designed (yes my GM is that twisted, sending NPCs against me that I minmax). Astral Sight, Spirit Knack (Air), internal GPS, Radar, and Ultrasound with cyber eyes and ears is one tough bloodhound to ditch. I knew I should've taken Interference. |
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Aug 9 2007, 03:01 AM
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#435
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 138 Joined: 1-September 02 From: France Member No.: 3,208 |
I'm not sure one can design such a global single sense spell. Technological sensor can use quite a large array of various sensors. |
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Aug 9 2007, 03:18 AM
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#436
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,748 Joined: 5-July 02 Member No.: 2,935 |
I mean you'd have a spell geared toward a single technological sense. An illusion that only worked for radar sense, for example, or an illusion that only worked for ultrasound vision.
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Aug 9 2007, 04:49 AM
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#437
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,219 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lofwyr's stomach. Member No.: 1,320 |
Like, say, a spell that makes you invisible to cameras but not to people. This is the exact opposite of the normal situation, where someone casts a mana-illusion that the people see but the camera picks up. YOu want all versions of these spells. Why? Imagine if you are the spider at a facility. YOu are getting visual reports from the guards in one location, but nothing shows up on camera. Meanwhile, you see something on your camera somewhere else, but the guards report nothing. Which of these do you send the reinforcements to? Most security people will be aware that typical illusions work on people, and the the better ones also work on camera, but who's ever heard of an illusion that worked on sensors but not people? I'd say at least 75% of the time the security would go for the group on camera.
See how useful it can be? |
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Aug 9 2007, 11:36 AM
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#438
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
Whoa. Actually that is a slip in the organization of the main book, not Augmentation. The vast majority of cosmetic implants listed under Cyberware/Bodyware in SR4 are actually what under the advanced rules are identified as biosculpting modifications or cosmetic bioware and not cyberware (with the notable exception of Fiberoptic hair). This will be addressed in upcoming errata/FAQs. The one mistake in Biosculpting rules (p.61) is that a redirect that should have been to p.126 is noted as p.33 instead (kind of obvious since p.33 does not, in fact, contain the Cosmetic Surgery/Biosculpting rules but rather Cosmetic Cyberware). This has been detected and is listed for upcoming errata.
As part of a moderately complex procedure such as reshaping the face or lengthening leg height then yes., breaking bones and resetting them differently does indeed cost 0.1 essence from your bioware total. Sanding down all the dermal deposits on a troll's body and head to give him a clean-skinned appearance and performing whatever procedures are necessary for them not to regrow does indeed cost all of 0.1 Essence from your biototal.
Getting fully-functional, nerve-rewired, parabolic, full motion range-enabled, new muscular groups-grafted dog ears does indeed cost 0.3 to-0.5 Essence (from your bioware total) depending on how much work the GM thinks the mod requires. Same for putting your eyes on a pair of 3 inch, prehensile stalks on your shoulders btw. |
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Aug 9 2007, 11:45 AM
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#439
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 398 Joined: 16-August 06 Member No.: 9,130 |
With one caveat. You must beat the object resistance of the device. In this case I believe it is 4. So you must cast these sort of spells at Force 4 or higher and get 4 or more hits. |
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Aug 9 2007, 12:10 PM
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#440
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
As long as you don't errata the main book, you got Augmention contradicting the main book. And if you can errata the main book to make Augmention stop contradicting it... what about fixing som other issues?
..so if Joe Average breaks his Arm and never sees a doctor because he can't pay, it grows together crude and he lost 0,1 points of essence. No... just... no. That stuff is done routinely today. If you start down that road, artificial hips will start cost essence.
You should emphasize the latter part in Errata.
But getting fully functional cybernetic Cat ears is still free? |
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Aug 9 2007, 01:32 PM
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#441
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Technomancer Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,638 Joined: 2-October 02 From: Champaign, IL Member No.: 3,374 |
I don't think Synner is saying that average Joe with a broken arm loses essence. But if average Joe goes to a street doc who breaks his arm, adds length to it in a surgical process, and heals it so that Joe is now quite literally a knuckle-dragger, then Joe loses essence.
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Aug 9 2007, 01:44 PM
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#442
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
But that got nothing to do with Bioware - it's already done today.
And honstely, if the main book goes 'Sure, cosmetic stuff is essence free - go and style up your character whatever he wants', then Augmention telling us '..but expect to pay a steep price in Essence for it' is a major problem with Augmention, not the main book. |
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Aug 9 2007, 01:51 PM
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#443
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Target Group: Members Posts: 23 Joined: 1-August 07 Member No.: 12,429 |
Ok, I hope I'm not a repeater of questions, I've scanned the Augmentation forums. Here are some questions of mine:
Below are costs that don't match up from the tables on p.89 and p. 173 of Augmentation. Phenotype adjustments: Genewipe 60k/ 45k Shuffle 30k/ 40k Transgenics: Adapsin 30k/ 40k Daredrenaline 25k/ 40k Dynomitin 25k/ 30k Hyper-Glucagon 20k/ 25k Neo-EPO 25k/ 35k Qualia 25k/ 40k Reakt 30k/ 45k Synch 30k/ 40k Vasocon 25k/ 30k Which costs are the correct ones? I assume that if you have the Exceptional Attribute quality (for Strength, Body, or Agility), your Customized Cyberlimb (Augmentation p.44) will be able to start at the modified natural attribute maximum. Am I correct? For instance, an Orc with Strength 9 (from Exceptional Attribute), can also make his Cyber Arm have a starting Strength of 9. If you take the Genetic Optimization (Augmentation p.89) as a starting character, can you pay points to increase your attribute? For instance, a Troll with Body 10 (65 points) who takes Genetic Optimization and spends 10 more points to make it 11. When Sync, Augmentation p. 91, refers to Combat Tests, this means both Ranged and Unarmed AND on the attack and on the defense, right? Thanks for your responses. |
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Aug 9 2007, 02:13 PM
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#444
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
Catalyst is continuously fixing what we think needs fixing. We will continue to issue errata (for the corebook and Unwired) when and if it's necessary.
Somehow I don't see how that qualifies as either cosmetic surgery or biosculpting as defined in the book but have it your own way...
"Cosmetic surgery" and "biosculpting" imply by their very definition voluntary cosmetic changes to the way things look as well as how they function. If we had intended it to apply to hip replacements we would have called it "remedial surgery" or "trauma surgery." Cosmetic surgery and Biosculpting rules are only intended to be used when someone walks into a clinic and asks to have cosmetic work done on them. Does that mean that it covers disfigured burn victims? Yes. Though since we didn't give a value for that its up to the GM to wing it.
Why? The cost is what the cost is. Errata won't change that and wordcount is always at a premium. We might clarify something to that intent in a FAQ if a lot of people bring it up.
I reiterate, in case you didn't get my previous point. There are was never an intention of introducing "cybernetic cat ears" (and if there were they'd be a mod on normal cyberears - like the cybereye mod - and the ear itself would have an Essence cost). Those and several other mods in the same entry were erroneously grouped under Cyberware / Bodyware when they should have been Basic Bioware (and the Cosmetic Modifications in Cyberware / Bioware should technically have contained small metal horns, spikes, studs and pins (as well as the fiberoptic hair previously mentioned). Hopefully in the next errata for the BBB, relevant entries on the tables will be updated to read Essence 0-0.5. |
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Aug 9 2007, 02:31 PM
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#445
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
So there is still hope. :P
Because as it is now, it sounds like if a Troll maintains body hygiene with an orbital sander would make him lose essence. ;)
Because biologically, it is exactly the same as elongating or straightening your legs by breaking them and make them heal. |
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Aug 9 2007, 02:48 PM
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#446
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
The prices on p.88 thru 94 are the correct ones. We adjusted gene treatment costs late in production and we must have missed updating the charts at the back of the book that were already finished. One more for errata.
This is correct. The limbs are customized to the individual user's stats.
Technically yes, if you fork out the 45000Y at chargen for Genetic Optimization you also raise your racial attribute maximum and get one more attribute point in at 10 BP. As always check with your GM though, he might rule it differently.
Yes. |
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Aug 9 2007, 07:11 PM
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#447
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 695 Joined: 2-January 07 From: He has here a minute ago... Member No.: 10,514 |
Key point of the physical changes (limb extension, replacement hip, nose ring) is the fundamental physiological change. You have to ask if there is a tranhuman difference in play.
If you have bits of graphed skin and fake cartilage surgically attached to the top of your head to look like cat ears... you're a bit odd but you aren't losing essence. No more than someone who has a hair transplant. If you have bioware car ears grown and surgically attached, with a rerouting of nerve endings and motor control, then and passage through your skull and rerouting of middle ear functions... that costs essence. If your troll sands down his rough bits Hellboy style? No essence, but a massive headache. If he has his genetic makeup modified so that they will not grow any further but allows skin to replace them, that's essence right there. If you get a tongue stud, it costs you financially and socially. If you have a shock pad implanted into your tongue with a DNI trigger, that costs essence. Pins in you arm to help set a broken bone? That's a good question. Born with one limb 2cm short than the other so you have it broken, seperated and allowed to heal so it matches the other? That's a question too. Edit: Those last two are really essence cost theory questions. If that sort of thing comes up in your game you need to back off a bit. |
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Aug 10 2007, 01:34 AM
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#448
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,978 Joined: 26-February 02 From: New Jersey, USA Member No.: 500 |
Synner: Would it be wrong to say that Essence, as portrayed in Augmentation, is based somewhat off of the Aristotelian concept of the 'forms'?
(It's been way too long since Political Philosophy for me to explain it in any coherent way, hopefully someone gets what I mean...) |
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Aug 10 2007, 01:41 AM
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#449
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Good thing we got those much-needed rules for cybercocks and cybertits, then. |
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Aug 10 2007, 02:08 AM
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#450
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Shooting Target Group: Retired Admins Posts: 1,784 Joined: 28-July 04 From: Cleveland, OH Member No.: 6,522 |
While I can't speak to how Synner envisions it, that's how I've always looked at it. |
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