 Augmentation Q&A, Ask the developers and the authors |
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 Jul 28 2007, 04:19 AM
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#51
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Dragon  Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686  |
If you have a cyberlimb, you can't put anything costing essence into it. If you have a cybertorso, you can install breasts via capacity, however the breasts are "in" the torso. Anything costing essence has to go in your meat portion of the torso, and can not be put into the breasts because they are a part of the cyberlimb, which can't accept essence implants.
Your way, I can get the breasts via capacity, and then the gland, saving .25 essence. My way (and the RAW way) you have to get the breasts via essence, and then put the gland in them. Freeing up 2 capacity in your cybertorso for a different upgrade in the process. |
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Jul 28 2007, 04:20 AM
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#52
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 |
What cyber gland?
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Jul 28 2007, 04:25 AM
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#53
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
How do you figure? The rules pretty much state everything you have installed works together in this edition, and implants like the (apparently named) Cyber Gland specifically state that they can be applied to various parts of your body. Of which cybernetic breasts are once you have them installed, whether it was via the Capacity of a Cybertorso or Essence. Look at it this way. Capacity encompasses all the extra access points a cyberlimb has for you to plug stuff into. Since that cyberlimb is already hardwired to your system, those Capacity-eating accessories don't require any more Essence because they're basically modifying the cyberlimb, expanding the capabilities of the cyberlimb. It's no different than giving a cyberlimb an extra +1 Strength; that extra Strength isn't a separate entity anymore than the other accessories are. It's all pedantic, really. You're still paying Essence for everything. Cyberlimbs just have a bonus in that they effectively reduce the Essence costs of select implants. But they still function just like they would if you had paid Essence and never had a cyberlimb installed. |
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Jul 28 2007, 04:26 AM
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#54
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,159 Joined: 12-April 07 From: Ork Underground Member No.: 11,440 |
Aug page 35 |
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Jul 28 2007, 04:26 AM
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#55
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Fine. Make me get my damn book loaded up. One moment. Cybergland. Augmentation pp. 33 and 36. |
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Jul 28 2007, 04:32 AM
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#56
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 |
Still costs essence only. No capacity listed. The fluff of it contradicts with SR4 in that no implants costing essence may be installed into a cyberlimb. So, I'll take it that the specific of the gland permits it to be installed in any appropriate cyberware implant instead. And retract that you couldn't put it in cyberbreasts installed via capacity of a cybertorso.
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Jul 28 2007, 04:34 AM
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#57
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
It's not being installed into a cyberlimb. Or more correctly, it can only be installed with Essence and not Capacity. The description specifically states that it can be installed just about anywhere you want, including cyberlimbs, dermal sheathing, or sexual implants (meaning that's where it outputs its content rather than genuinely being installed "in" the implant).
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Jul 28 2007, 04:49 AM
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#58
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 192 Joined: 13-July 06 From: Long Beach Sacrifice Zone Member No.: 8,885 |
I get the point Wearz is making here. If I subscribe a drone to my PAN, I can have a window open in my field of view that gives me the drone's view. What the drone sees, I can see... with zero essence spent. The trick here is if a balance tail could be installed with a compartment in it, and in that compartment you placed a Lone Star iBall drone (or just spot-welded it to the end of your tail, that's one way) and subscribed it... I'm sure any character with iBall drones duct-taped on their hands and the back of their neck would raise a few eyebrows, but the whole wireless (or hell, even skinlink) setup means you could technically have a sensor implant that costs zero essence. If you can subscribe to another's pan and share sensory input (I see what the dwarf rigger sees) then you do open up the floodgates to a character with single cybereyes attached with double sided tape. This opens up a can of worms. So why couldn't I make a belt with two cyberlimbs bolted to it and control them via my PAN? I'm sure there's some argument about the speed of access, but there's enough in the RAW about access time and response to make the argument in favor. I'm not saying I agree with the idea of an ork with cybereyes stuck to his armor, or his motorcycle having a cyberarm that fires while he drives... but you can see where the argument can be made. I've often thought of running several microdrones that 'ride' on a character's clothes and drop off when told to, in order to keep tabs on a facility. If the rigger-hacker's got a good enough commlink, he can have tiny insect drones covering the entrance, access corridor, etc. Who needs to hack the building when you have your own mobile security system? |
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Jul 28 2007, 05:04 AM
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#59
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 |
Because, if you're fixing a camera to a spot, you don't have the mechanism to move it about without moving what its affixed to. So, sticking a camera on the end of your tail would be disorienting, since it'd sway with the motion of the tail. However, putting an eye in it, would be less bad, since the eye can pivot and turn to help stabilize the image.
Also, mages can use single cybereyes to target, (since they were paid for in essence), but can't use ducttaped/welded drones. |
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Jul 28 2007, 05:07 AM
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#60
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,159 Joined: 12-April 07 From: Ork Underground Member No.: 11,440 |
Is there a limit one can have on Cyber Limbs ie Arms?
Could a character have two meat arms then have two additional Cyber Limbs ie Arms installed? Could you not have 4 Cyber Limbs ie Arms installed? Yes I can see the need for a Cyber Limb ie Torso at some point. Any Ideas/thoughts on the essence costs? as per RAW or something else. Sterling, I have seen Hacker/Riggers use that tactic you are discussing in several In the Shadows Games. |
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Jul 28 2007, 05:10 AM
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#61
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 |
Nothing that says you can't. Except in sr4, 335, it indirectly says that arms/legs are always full replacements, and torso/skulls are always shells. Meaning, no multiples, since if you replace it, you don't get to keep the old one.
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Jul 28 2007, 05:13 AM
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#62
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,246 Joined: 8-June 07 Member No.: 11,869 |
Why not indeed? Igor, bring me my tool belt! But seriously, why not? The cyberarm belt would just be a partially mobile drone. You could control the arm-drone by diving into it (what a spectacular waste of time) or you could put an agent in there and send commands to the agent. Bingo, you have four arms. The difference between a cybereye and a camera taped to the end of your tail is that you don't have to multitask to see through the cybereye. The essence cost is paying for the brain/nerve rewiring you need to natively perceive through the device. With a camera, you have to multitask to see through that device (as per the multiple drone/monitor rules). You'd have to either take your attention off your normal vision and watch the tail monitor and take perception penalties to your regular sight or you'd have to take your attention off your tail camera and receive perception penalties to spotting stuff in your tail camera (unless you had Multitasking). |
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Jul 28 2007, 05:16 AM
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#63
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 192 Joined: 13-July 06 From: Long Beach Sacrifice Zone Member No.: 8,885 |
Oh, I'm not trying to argue the essence cost issue with magic, you're completely correct on that aspect. I just don't quite understand how a drone that can move on its own independently, yet projects a window of what it sees would be any more or less disorienting than a balance tail (or even a surge fully controllable tail) with a drone duct-taped to the end of it. I'm also not really serious about this point, I just wanted to illustrate how the wireless drone rules do open up a very difficult position on the old 'to impant cybereyes in non-standard locations costs essence' rule. |
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Jul 28 2007, 05:19 AM
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#64
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,159 Joined: 12-April 07 From: Ork Underground Member No.: 11,440 |
Hmm under the Biosculpting in Aug severe modification one could have a tail, stretching it out,,,one could have another arm installed? Or have two additional arms cloned, then have them attached to the torso of the clonee. Yes the figuring out how to have a second set of arms including a working skeletal structure and neural pathways/brain work, would require a skilled surgeon etc. But now you have four arms,,you can replace them with Cyber Limbs ie Arms, so you are with in RAW. |
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Jul 28 2007, 05:24 AM
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#65
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 |
If its duct-taped to the tail, then the drone can't move independently can it?
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Jul 28 2007, 05:30 AM
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#66
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,246 Joined: 8-June 07 Member No.: 11,869 |
Does Augmentation say you get perception penalties for having a cybereye or camera on your tail?
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Jul 28 2007, 05:34 AM
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#67
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Cybernetic Blood Mage Group: Members Posts: 3,472 Joined: 11-March 06 From: Northeastern Wyoming Member No.: 8,361 |
If you try to use it at the same time as your normal (cyber)eyes yes.
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Jul 28 2007, 05:38 AM
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#68
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 192 Joined: 13-July 06 From: Long Beach Sacrifice Zone Member No.: 8,885 |
No, and that was my point, really. Unless you somehow slapped the magnetic system in your tail and could 'drop' the drone when you chose to... but that's as far as I'm going there. I'm just saying that instead of spending essence to slap a cybereye in the tip of your cybertail, why not use the rules about controlling drones to get that same advantage (a way to see behind you, around corners, etc) using a mounted drone? I'm sure any serious corp has hardened armor for their security guards with 'turreted' drones in the shoulders, that way each guard not only has 360 degree vision, they have a machine pistol on each shoulder that are basically fixed smart firing platforms that provide cover, etc. The fact anyone with a commlink can control a drone and the fact that drones can move independently does not mean that there is no use for a drone that is slaved to your commlink and cannot move on its own (or is anchored at one spot but can spin and elevate its weapon). In my game I might allow people to stick a 'remote' cybereye on various locations, but I doubt I would allow it to replace the advantage (and mages wouldn't find it useful for spell casting, but it would help avoid being surprised) of a 'legal' cybereye implanted and paid for by essence. "This looks like a good place for a stick-up-eye!" "Wow, it's an air freshener and a cybereye too! You get odor elimination AND can catch Junior raiding the cookie jar and your husband breaking his diet!" Argh, sorry, I'm totally contributing to a massive derailment of a very helpful thread, I'll stop. Edit, helping to end what I have started. Buster had the answer; it's better to implant the eye and lose two dice on the observe in detail/perception test for all your eyes than to have to make a second test for the drone duct-taped to your tail/back when you want to check your six. This post has been edited by Sterling: Jul 28 2007, 07:46 AM |
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Jul 28 2007, 05:41 AM
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#69
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,246 Joined: 8-June 07 Member No.: 11,869 |
I agree with Sterling, that doesn't make any sense. A tail camera shouldn't be any worse of a penalty than a hacker/rigger gets for watching multiple monitors. And that "cybereye" shouldn't cost essence, it should be the same as having a camera in his cyberlimb. If he has to pay essence for it, then the taileye should give a much lower penalty since it's being hardwired to the brain.
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Jul 28 2007, 06:15 AM
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#70
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 |
The way I see it is this. If you tape a camera to your tail, its going to be twitching and swaying around constantly as per the description of the tail. Because the camera (or fixed drone) has no way to move its viewpoint around, then you get a fixed view that is swaying and twitching, in a view of something like a picture in picture display on your image link. Which IMO, would be worthless, since the picture would be swinging around so quick and so unfocusedly, you couldn't pick out anything from it.
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Jul 28 2007, 08:35 AM
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#71
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
Sheesh, I get a good night's sleep and come back to this... I'm not going to bother with digging up the first of this thread of questions. Frank, Dr. Funk, and several others have answered correctly. A cybereye costs Essence because it is hardwired to your nervous system and transmits sensory data back and forth to your brain - whether its on your foot, your tail or the back of your neck. This neural link is constantly making minute adjustments to depth perception, focus, etc like a real eye. Cameras/sensors/drones that are not physically wired to the brain via DNI are also available (and more will come with Arsenal) but wireless links are detectable, hackable, subject to jamming, and generally more vulnerable than DNI. Technically the rules do not allow for cybereyes to be implanted on cyberlimbs because cybereyes have Essence costs and not Capacity (note that both cyberskulls and cybertorsos are shells allowing you to still get bio- and cyber headware and bodyware). In hindsight, this could have been handled differently by simply adding a Capacity to single cybereyes - I'll look into including this in errata. If you really must have them, it is easy enough, have them take up half their current Capacity (load) value as Capacity cost. Also: everyone who has mentioned that cyberware implanted in a cyberlimb can be connected up any which way you want is correct (and while you can't use a bioware chemical gland in a cyberarm at all, in the case of a torso mounted cyberbreast / chemical gland arrangement that is possible since the cybertorso does not replace the internal organs of the torso and it's only a matter of making a conduit). And yes, we did spend time discussing whether cybergenitalia were puerile. Finally, I will reiterate my previous clarification regarding a Capacity related issue: only Eyeware and Earware systems may be used in cybereyes and cyberears respectively. |
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Jul 28 2007, 08:41 AM
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#72
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
My question is: What was the rationale behind adding things like "cybergenitalia" and the Orgasm/Orgy spells to the game? What positives do they bring? An off-color comment in some shadowtalk? I could have handled that. But just going out of your way to add it all in is... well, tasteless.
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Jul 28 2007, 08:46 AM
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#73
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
All I can say is that cybergenitalia went through several rounds of playtests and only one group of playtesters (Americans) agreed with you. Generally speaking most playtesters thought it was an interesting addition (at least on par with other cosmetic mods we included) and came up with many of the gimmicks/uses WarezManySkinz is obviously thinking of.
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Jul 28 2007, 09:19 AM
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#74
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
So, can you get a range of sizes? Does the 'troll special' have a higher capacity?
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Jul 28 2007, 09:20 AM
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#75
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Oh well. Here's to hoping gay, fart, and (more) dick jokes don't become the norm at least. |
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