Augmentation Q&A, Ask the developers and the authors Options

[Aaron]

Actually, people in recorded history didn't necessarily keel over in their thirties. Folks that made it past puberty had a good chance of seeing 50 and a fair shot at 60 (if one survived child birth); it was the child deaths that drove the average age down. This was true even in ancient times: Caesar was murdered in his 50s, Archimedes and Kong Fuzi both made it past 70, and Djer reigned for over 40 years. Descriptions and diagnoses of senile dementia were recorded by Ancient Greek, Roman, Byzantine, and Chinese physicians.

[Stahlseele]

I understand the medical reasoning for it. To be honest it makes a lot of sense unlike some of the things which occur in SR. I was just currious if it was to discourage players from taking one, and encourage it to be an NPC only type of thing.
But this makes me wonder what happens if you have a -6 essence cyberzombie who gets their implants removed and undergoes the essence restorative treatments to go back to a full 6 essence?
Is that even possible?

Tricky Question . . technically, it should be possible i'd say . . but the devs and the rules haven often pointed out that what i say ammounts to an ant trying to stop a volcano . .

[Aaron]

Water molecules are absorbed by RADAR, WRONG. Weather RADARS detect clouds ie water vapor, none of the Military RADARs I used or was familiar with, clouds/water vapor did not phase/affect them.

Er ... sort of. First off, water molecules are not absorbed by radar, that's true. Radar and other electromagnetic radiation experiences greater attenuation in water, though. Weather radar works because the wavelengths used are larger, but not too much larger, than what they're intended to find. This causes Rayleigh scattering, which is what the weather detectors look for to find clouds and precipitation.

Most military detection radar uses wavelengths that are much larger than weather radar, and so are not as attenuated by water vapor (it just polarizes the water particles it passes through, rather than scattering or reflecting).

For the radar geeks, weather radar uses the X and C bands, and detection radar uses the HF through S bands.

[Mordinvan]

I really don't see why it should not affect neural bioware as well (I really, really wish they'd dropped the cultured label for sure; it only creates confusion with bioware grades). Even if you have to tweak all neural bioware to make it mesh with individual nervous system patterns, blood/immune type matching is still going to be an issue, which perfect, non-allergenic matching nicely sidesteps. This from a fluff-wise POV. Ruleswise, you can still buy neural bioware at Alpha, Beta, or Delta grades, and Type O allows to buy basic grade bio as Delta grade, so it should work for that as well.
The culture-required (which I'll call neural 'ware as per Augmentation from here out) label is really only confusing if you're taking the stance that it doesn't actually mean much of anything, which is essentially what you're arguing. The tissue and blood type matching isn't just "helpful" with neural bioware, it's a minimum requirement, and it would take more than meeting the minimum requirements to get that kind of 'ware up to Delta grade performance. I would guess that basic neural bioware would simply operate correctly and do its job, while higher grade neural bioware has been meticulously DNA matched, mapped out and coaxed to do the same work with less cells. I could be completely wrong, but if I am, then I have no idea why the devs bothered to make a distinction in the first place at all.

The only problem is any bioware place into the brain would have any antigens on it it wanted because the imune system is NOT allow in the brain because of the life threatening dangers brain swelling causes. There is a blood brain barrier which prevents the interaction of the two.
So imuno typing is actually a NON-requirement as opposed to a minimum requirement.

[Mordinvan]

I hate it when people try to get around the intention of a rule like that.

It's pretty damn clear that the rule is referring to bioware that is blatantly animalistic in nature such as Cat's Eyes, Hair Growth, Tailored Critter Pheromones, and Spidersilk Glands. Saying asinine things like "well, animal X has higher initiative scores and animal Y has more Agility than humans do, so Synaptic Boosters and Muscle Toners count as animal features" is just... meh.

While I'm a firm believer that the developers need to get off their asses and 1) actually word the rules properly and 2) keep an eye out for loopholes, that doesn't mean players and GMs alike should knowingly and purposely try to rape them simply because they can.

With a little effort I can point out the genes required to do many of the fuctions of basic bioware and even cultured bioware, ie muscle agumentation/toner, bone density, digestive expansion, damage compensators, these are all found in the animal kingdom, and should be brought over via transgenomic tweeking.

[Tarantula]

With a little effort I can point out the genes required to do many of the fuctions of basic bioware and even cultured bioware, ie muscle agumentation/toner, bone density, digestive expansion, damage compensators, these are all found in the animal kingdom, and should be brought over via transgenomic tweeking.

Thats genetech. Shadowrun tech is only now starting to get that. Deal with it.

[Mordinvan]

That's the thing. There is, in a way, a dual Essence cost. 0.5 + 0.25/rating. I am thinking of house ruling the 0.5 fixed cost to be always applicable, even if implanted in a cyberlimb.

So I could spend .5 essence to get the meat mods, but keep the hive on my desk and fill up syringes with nanites and inject them when required? If so, how would this affect the cost of the hive, and or future hives, as I'm not paying for them to be implanted?

[WearzManySkins]

With a little effort I can point out the genes required to do many of the fuctions of basic bioware and even cultured bioware, ie muscle agumentation/toner, bone density, digestive expansion, damage compensators, these are all found in the animal kingdom, and should be brought over via transgenomic tweeking.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) Hmm for some reason this line of discussion sounds familiar. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

I have such in my SR4 world but the character has to a good back story to cover it.

There has been some long and detailed threads on this subject here.

WMS

[WearzManySkins]

Er ... sort of. First off, water molecules are not absorbed by radar, that's true. Radar and other electromagnetic radiation experiences greater attenuation in water, though. Weather radar works because the wavelengths used are larger, but not too much larger, than what they're intended to find. This causes Rayleigh scattering, which is what the weather detectors look for to find clouds and precipitation.

Most military detection radar uses wavelengths that are much larger than weather radar, and so are not as attenuated by water vapor (it just polarizes the water particles it passes through, rather than scattering or reflecting).

For the radar geeks, weather radar uses the X and C bands, and detection radar uses the HF through S bands.

Hmm tell that to the FAA when my military radar jammed out LAX for two weeks.

Frequency equals resolution of radar image.

WMS

[Mordinvan]

Thats genetech. Shadowrun tech is only now starting to get that. Deal with it.

Present day 2008 tech can do muscle augmentation with some cultured antibodies.

The genetech version would just be a simple gene knockout. If they can make me look Chinese be rewriting my DNA they can turn one gene off.

[WearzManySkins]

Present day 2008 tech can do muscle augmentation with some cultured antibodies.

The genetech version would just be a simple gene knockout. If they can make me look Chinese be rewriting my DNA they can turn one gene off.

I agree but since the Devs/Freelancers have yet to have issued anything with this technology, the Canonistas, Cranial Rectal Inversionites, and Hard Liners say you can not have it.

WMS

[Aaron]

Hmm tell that to the FAA when my military radar jammed out LAX for two weeks.

LAX also uses detection radar, so the military bands would be similar. However, military radar tends to be more powerful, and so could interfere with the airport's return signals. It's kind of like trying to listen to your friend at a concert; the louder signal from the speakers drowns out her speech. Alternately, if the pulses were strong enough, you could actually do physical damage to the waveguides or other electronics.

Frequency equals resolution of radar image.

True, but the higher the frequency, the greater the attenuation, and so the shorter the range. That goes doubly for radar, because you've not only got attenuation going out, but you've got it coming back, too.

[Aaron]

Present day 2008 tech can do muscle augmentation with some cultured antibodies.
The genetech version would just be a simple gene knockout. If they can make me look Chinese be rewriting my DNA they can turn one gene off.

Yes and no. I'm sure an actual trained biotech engineer can better explain this, but the chances are very low that it would merely augment your muscles. More likely, it would augment your muscles and give you cancer (the real thing, not the kind that one game gives you).

[WearzManySkins]

LAX also uses detection radar, so the military bands would be similar. However, military radar tends to be more powerful, and so could interfere with the airport's return signals. It's kind of like trying to listen to your friend at a concert; the louder signal from the speakers drowns out her speech. Alternately, if the pulses were strong enough, you could actually do physical damage to the waveguides or other electronics.

True, but the higher the frequency, the greater the attenuation, and so the shorter the range. That goes doubly for radar, because you've not only got attenuation going out, but you've got it coming back, too.

Actually the FAA uses RADAR for ground approach, IFF for anything beyond the range of the Ground Approach Radar. FYI the RADAR jamming out LAX also had a "new" IFF systems 180 degrees out of the main RADAR beam. Jammed them on landing and made them disappear off their IFF tracking systems.

Now how a 2kw RADAR Beam got focused on that FAA/FCC van mounted feedhorn antenna pier side I do not know. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) But I still recall the message traffic I had to submit to the FAA on our ships movement and what Freqs were to be used in what US locales. Since I was Work Center Supervisor, I got woken up at O Dark 30 to change the Freqs and report same to the OOD. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

Mark 23 TAS 1390-1400 MHz ie 1.39-1.4 GHz ie UHF also L Band
Mark 23TAS
AN/SPS-10 5,450-5,825 MHz ie SHF also C Band
AN/SPS-55 9,050-10,000 MHz ie SHF also X Band
AN/SPS-40 402.5-447.5 MHz ie UHF
AN/SPS-49 851-942 MHz ie UHF
AN/SPS-48 2,900-3,100 MHz ie UHF/SHF also S Band
AN/SPY-1 3,100-3,500 MHz ie SHF also S Band

For those with a self abusive streak here is a link to the Surface Warfare Officers Training Manuel on RADARS.

Electronics Material Officer Course

Also the same can be said of the various implanted bioware and such by today's standards, the risk of cancers caused by this is very great. But if the 2070 BioWare/GeneWare designers can over come the issues with their various published Warez, the risk of induced cancers due to Geneware for Transgenetic Enhancements is minimal, if not non existent, but seems to be vastly overstated. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) The Big Issue is the design sequence.

WMS

[Mordinvan]

Yes and no. I'm sure an actual trained biotech engineer can better explain this, but the chances are very low that it would merely augment your muscles. More likely, it would augment your muscles and give you cancer (the real thing, not the kind that one game gives you).

Actually the gene is called myostatin, and limits the upper limits on human muscle development, without it humans actually reach adult primate muscle densities. And I do have a degree in biology and looked this kinda stuff up when attending university. All that would be required to implement it is removing a portion of someone white blood cells and training them to attack the myostatin protein, then collecting the antibodies and reintroducing them into the donor. There are several human recorded with myostatin deficencies, and they have not noticed increased risk of cancer.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myostatin

[FrankTrollman]

Creating antibody reactions to myostatin is one of the worst ideas I've heard of recently.

There are ways to reduce the myostatin in the body that don't involve triggering an auto-immune response.

-Frank

[Mordinvan]

Creating antibody reactions to myostatin is one of the worst ideas I've heard of recently.

There are ways to reduce the myostatin in the body that don't involve triggering an auto-immune response.

-Frank

Since the protein is nonvital, there isn't an issue, in addition the source of the antibodies is external to the body itself so if you ever want functional myostatin again just stop injecting the antibody. I'd just use the individual's own white bloodcells to ensure the antibodies are recognized as self and allowed to do their job. If you can tell me why this would be a bad idea I'd love to hear about it.

[Suitcase Murphy]

Sorry to bring this back from the dead, but I have a question that I haven't been able to find any discussion on:

It seems like second-hand alphaware is strictly better than new off-the-shelf 'ware. I'm fine with this from an in-game perspective, but balance-wise it just seems stupid. In the example they give in the text on page 32, the player is able to buy, for the same price and lower availability, Rating 2 second hand alphaware muscle replacements for only 1.92 essence instead of the 2 it would cost had she bought them new and non-alpha.

That is to say, alphaware is no higher in availability, but second-hand ware is lower, the price either doubles or halves so you can do both at the same time, and the essence cost is 1.2 * 0.8 = 0.96 times what the essence cost would normally be.

Is there a good reasoning behind this or should I just make a rule against second-hand alphaware.

[darthmord]

Sorry to bring this back from the dead, but I have a question that I haven't been able to find any discussion on:

It seems like second-hand alphaware is strictly better than new off-the-shelf 'ware. I'm fine with this from an in-game perspective, but balance-wise it just seems stupid. In the example they give in the text on page 32, the player is able to buy, for the same price and lower availability, Rating 2 second hand alphaware muscle replacements for only 1.92 essence instead of the 2 it would cost had she bought them new and non-alpha.

That is to say, alphaware is no higher in availability, but second-hand ware is lower, the price either doubles or halves so you can do both at the same time, and the essence cost is 1.2 * 0.8 = 0.96 times what the essence cost would normally be.

Is there a good reasoning behind this or should I just make a rule against second-hand alphaware.

You could go the route of...

Alphaware = 20% discount
Secondhand = 20% markup

Total Discount = 0% aka 100% of base Essence cost.

So secondhand ware...
Normal = 120% Essence
Alpha = 100% Essence
Beta = 90% Essence (assuming you could get secondhand in this grade)
Delta = 70% Essence (assuming you could get secondhand in this grade)

[Suitcase Murphy]

You could go the route of...

Alphaware = 20% discount
Secondhand = 20% markup

Total Discount = 0% aka 100% of base Essence cost.

So secondhand ware...
Normal = 120% Essence
Alpha = 100% Essence
Beta = 90% Essence (assuming you could get secondhand in this grade)
Delta = 70% Essence (assuming you could get secondhand in this grade)

This certainly does seem more sensible, even if it contradicts the in-book example. There's still the problem where, by doing this, you've made every piece of cyberware have 1 lower availability, but that's not so bad.

Thanks.

[Synner]

The inbook example is incorrect and will be fixed in upcoming errata as will several calculations (namely the cybersuites). The discounts/markup percentages should be added/subtracted from one another before being applied.

[i101]

Quick Question: Where can i find information about used organs? On page 127 the book puts down the prices for type o and cultures body parts. But what if one of my players wants a "used" organ?

[Ryu]

Thats where the immuno-suppressants come into play. I´d say use the 50% modifier on cost, but hit them with the Implant-Induced-Immune-Deficiency. It´s not a desireable way in the face of commonly available Type-O implants.

[i101]

Whats the Implant-Induced-Immune-Deficiency?

[RunnerPaul]

Whats the Implant-Induced-Immune-Deficiency?

If I had to guess, it sounds like a plot device intended to have the same chilling effect on the secondhand implant market that AIDS had on the casual sex/one-night-stand mindset of the early-to-mid 80s.