Cyberlimb Rule Design Goals, Coming at the problem from another angle Options

[TheOneRonin]

Okay, we all seem to have different ideas about how RAW presented cyberlimbs are crap/broken/whatever. So many of us have posited house-rules in an attempt to fix the broken bits. Some of these rules suggestions are pretty good, and make great sense. However, I think we should come at the rules development for cyberlimbs from a different angle.

I'm going to post a list of reasonable non-mechanic expectations that I believe most people have of cyberlimbs. And I'm asking all of you to evaluate these, keep the ones that work best, and develop a ruleset from those expectations. I feel confident that this thread will help us create the best overall, comprehensive fix for 4th Ed Shadowrun cyberlimbs.




What do we want Cyberlimbs to do/be capable of?


Cybernetic Arms (full replacement w/shoulder mods)
-set in line with owners current attributes
-capable of small strength increase w/out risk of damage
-capable of large strength increase with risk of damage
-maxed out hand/grip strength without risk of damage
-more difficult to damage than meat limbs
-zero limb fatigue
-upgrade capability
-Aid with following skills:
.Climbing
.Swimming
.Gymnastics
-do more damage with physical attacks
-have built-in accessories
-be much cheaper than biological replacements/improvements




Cybernetic Legs (full replacement w/hip mods)
-most benefits require legs to be in pairs
-set in line with owners current attributes
-capable of small strength increase w/out risk of damage
-capable of large strength increase with risk of damage
-more difficult to damage than meat limbs
-zero limb fatigue
-upgrade capability
-Aid with following skills:
.Running
.Climbing
.Swimming
.Gymnastics
-greatly improve moving/running speed (only with two legs)
-greatly improve walking/running endurance (only with two legs)
-do more damage with physical attacks (kicks, knees, etc.)


Cybernetic Torso

-much more difficult to damage than meat torso
-significant protection for internal organs
-allows for increase attribute levels for cyberlimbs
-significant increase in endurance



As mentioned on some other threads, here are some things I think we should keep in mind.

1. A full cybernetic arm with same strength rating should hit as hard as a titanium laced meat arm. And given the tech level, I highly doubt your standard cyber arm will weigh much more than the meat arm for the same person. A juiced up cyberarm, maybe.

2. A full cybernetic limb will likely only give the relevant attribute bonuses to it's possessor only on specific checks, and only when that particular limb is the focus of such tests. Things like Muscle Replacement and Muscle Aug/Toner give global bonuses to all relevant tests. Therefore, it makes sense that the cyber limbs should be significantly cheaper than the latter two options.

3. There should be some essence discounts when combining limbs with other cyberware. For example, if a character with a cybernetic left arm decides to get Titanium Bone lacing, he won't need any surgery on his left arm at all. Same thing goes for wired reflexes, dermal plating/sheathing, orthoskin, and anything else that effects the body as a whole.

[Jaid]

actually, i'm pretty sure most people are pretty happy with the expanded rules in augmentation =P

i know i am...

[knasser]

[FrankTrollman]

I don't think I'll ever really be happy until I can put a fingertip compartment in every finger of a cyberhand. That was the one thing that really made me sad about the Augmentation design specs. We could add new things that made cyberlimbs worthwhile overall - but we couldn't specifically fix rules from the basic book. So items that already didn't work properly (fingertip compartments) stay that way, while new additions (such as arm tools and customized limbs) work fine.

I understand the reasoning, and usually I even agree with it. But c'mon man... fingertip cmpartments!

-Frank

[TheOneRonin]

I think one of the core problems from the BBB is how cyberlimb attributes are handled in the first place.

If you ask me, your limbs should, at minimum, have stats equal to your meat body. Then on top of that, they should give bonus dice for tests that involve the limb.

Having each limb with 3 different attributes just makes a mess of things. Having all of those attributes at rating 3 makes the mess worse, and piles "inane" on top of it.

[Shrike30]

[PlatonicPimp]

You could always get a bulky cyberhand. Then you'd have room.

I'd wager that the smaller fingers simply don't have room otherwise.

[eidolon]

[Ol' Scratch]

The rules in Augmentation fix every issue I've had with cyberlimbs exept for two, and they require very minor house rules to remedy as opposed to a huge list as before.

House Rule #1: Customized Cyberlimbs have a flat Availability modifier of +4. It's not variable depending on what stats you give it or what race it's for.

House Rule #2: Unarmed Damage with all cyberlimbs except medical replacements (which is what I consider the ones listed in the core rules) are increased to levels similar to Bone Lacing. Full limbs are equal to Titanium Bone Lacing, partial are the same as Aluminum, and hands/feet are the same as Plastic. Melee weapons with variable damage values that are attached to cyberlimbs gain a +1 to +3 DV bonus over the base damage instead of a completely different value; all other stats, such as Reach and whether or not it does Physical or Stun damage, remain the same as listed for the weapon.

Together, those rules fix everything for me. Your mileage may vary as with all things. :)

[Dancer]

[PlatonicPimp]

Customizaton only goes up to your meat stats. Past that you have to use the augmentation rules from the BBB, which take up capacity.

[Ol' Scratch]

[Jaid]

[PlatonicPimp]

Well shit, I have to go redesign "worst case scenario" the troll cyberzombie again. This means I can crank out another few points of body on that sucker.

[Jaid]

[Ravor]

Eh, I still double all capacity right off the bat (Haven't decided whether or not to double the "bulky" upgrades as well, but I'm seriously considering it.)

I also allow all of the ( Rating 3 ) Stat Enhancements to be bought eithout using capacity provided they aren't designed to be "hidden". (Not Armor though now that FrankTrollman has confirmed that yes, it does stack completely with normal armor.)

And now that I've read the idea, I'll probably have most normal cyberlimbs count as customized, with only the old cheap junk otherwise.

[Ol' Scratch]

Double Capacities? :O Wow.

[Ravor]

Well remember that anything you want installed has to be able to pass my sniff test, so it isn't nearly as bad as it sounds at first. ;)

[Ol' Scratch]

Just seems a little excessive considering how much you can already cram in! Especially with the new Customized Cyberlimbs not taking up any Capacity (which is a big problem with the core limbs).

If it works for you, that's cool though. I keep forgetting people like putting weapons and junk in their limbs. I usually focus on gadgets with a 1-2 Capacity requirement. So a 30 Capacity Cyberarm just has me all agape at the possibilities. :D

[Sterling]

[The Jopp]

The houserules we have implemented might seem like pure munchkinite but we think it suits the setting.

Cyberlimbs are supposed to be cheap and used by the poor, desperate or those who simply like chrome – not just for shadowrunners.

Now, lets look at a synthetic limb: 20000
Now, lets look at a cloned limb: 21000 (4 weeks)
Why would someone poor choose metal over cloned?

We basically slashed the base price for limbs (all kinds) to 10K torsos 10K, skulls 5K and lower limb 5K and finally hand/foot to 2,5K

Cybertorso have essence 1.5 and cyberskull 0,75. Why? We feel that partial “shells� like these shouldn’t be much more invasive than a full replacement so we lowered them to 1 and 0,5.

Also, a base cyberlimb have the average racial attributes of the chosen metarace and customizing a cyberlimb is only needed if you are above average attributes (because it felt wrong that trolls would have availability 14 limbs just to have a replacement.

End result is that poor people can spend 5K and 1,2 essence on a second hand cyberlimb which is lots cheaper than a cloned limb making the choice much easier.

Also, im in favour of full borgs which means that you can make a full replacement human for 55K and an essence of 5,5. That on the other hand doesn’t include cybernetic eyes, cybereyes and other cosmetic additions that might be needed…5,9 might be a more accurate amount and around 60K without any higher grade.

Remember, it might sound cheap but costs will quickly multiply as soon as you want to increase attributes, grade and add limb implants.

EDIT:
We also cut availability across the board to 4 since addons would quickly raise it higher and well, a cyberskull shouldn't be that darn hard to find compared to say a weapon...

[Ravor]

Yeah, well when I first thought of the rule I was thinking more about cyberhands and forearms then whole arms, but I figure that this way people can fit in their cyberweapons and still have room for some nice toys as well. :cyber:

But then again I'm in the "Crome is king" camp so I'm more then slightly bais. :smokin:

[TheOneRonin]

[Ravor]

Makes sense with the new Redlining Rules as well, perhaps allow a user to Redline above the x2 mark, but then the damage becomes Physical as opposed to Stun?

[Marwynn]