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TheOneRonin
Okay, we all seem to have different ideas about how RAW presented cyberlimbs are crap/broken/whatever. So many of us have posited house-rules in an attempt to fix the broken bits. Some of these rules suggestions are pretty good, and make great sense. However, I think we should come at the rules development for cyberlimbs from a different angle.

I'm going to post a list of reasonable non-mechanic expectations that I believe most people have of cyberlimbs. And I'm asking all of you to evaluate these, keep the ones that work best, and develop a ruleset from those expectations. I feel confident that this thread will help us create the best overall, comprehensive fix for 4th Ed Shadowrun cyberlimbs.




What do we want Cyberlimbs to do/be capable of?


Cybernetic Arms (full replacement w/shoulder mods)
-set in line with owners current attributes
-capable of small strength increase w/out risk of damage
-capable of large strength increase with risk of damage
-maxed out hand/grip strength without risk of damage
-more difficult to damage than meat limbs
-zero limb fatigue
-upgrade capability
-Aid with following skills:
.Climbing
.Swimming
.Gymnastics
-do more damage with physical attacks
-have built-in accessories
-be much cheaper than biological replacements/improvements





Cybernetic Legs (full replacement w/hip mods)
-most benefits require legs to be in pairs
-set in line with owners current attributes
-capable of small strength increase w/out risk of damage
-capable of large strength increase with risk of damage
-more difficult to damage than meat limbs
-zero limb fatigue
-upgrade capability
-Aid with following skills:
.Running
.Climbing
.Swimming
.Gymnastics
-greatly improve moving/running speed (only with two legs)
-greatly improve walking/running endurance (only with two legs)
-do more damage with physical attacks (kicks, knees, etc.)



Cybernetic Torso

-much more difficult to damage than meat torso
-significant protection for internal organs
-allows for increase attribute levels for cyberlimbs
-significant increase in endurance




As mentioned on some other threads, here are some things I think we should keep in mind.

1. A full cybernetic arm with same strength rating should hit as hard as a titanium laced meat arm. And given the tech level, I highly doubt your standard cyber arm will weigh much more than the meat arm for the same person. A juiced up cyberarm, maybe.

2. A full cybernetic limb will likely only give the relevant attribute bonuses to it's possessor only on specific checks, and only when that particular limb is the focus of such tests. Things like Muscle Replacement and Muscle Aug/Toner give global bonuses to all relevant tests. Therefore, it makes sense that the cyber limbs should be significantly cheaper than the latter two options.

3. There should be some essence discounts when combining limbs with other cyberware. For example, if a character with a cybernetic left arm decides to get Titanium Bone lacing, he won't need any surgery on his left arm at all. Same thing goes for wired reflexes, dermal plating/sheathing, orthoskin, and anything else that effects the body as a whole.
Jaid
actually, i'm pretty sure most people are pretty happy with the expanded rules in augmentation =P

i know i am...
knasser
QUOTE (Jaid)
actually, i'm pretty sure most people are pretty happy with the expanded rules in augmentation =P

i know i am...


Sorry. I am too. Meet all my requirements and just about squeak in under the Balanced Bar.
FrankTrollman
I don't think I'll ever really be happy until I can put a fingertip compartment in every finger of a cyberhand. That was the one thing that really made me sad about the Augmentation design specs. We could add new things that made cyberlimbs worthwhile overall - but we couldn't specifically fix rules from the basic book. So items that already didn't work properly (fingertip compartments) stay that way, while new additions (such as arm tools and customized limbs) work fine.

I understand the reasoning, and usually I even agree with it. But c'mon man... fingertip cmpartments!

-Frank
TheOneRonin
I think one of the core problems from the BBB is how cyberlimb attributes are handled in the first place.

If you ask me, your limbs should, at minimum, have stats equal to your meat body. Then on top of that, they should give bonus dice for tests that involve the limb.

Having each limb with 3 different attributes just makes a mess of things. Having all of those attributes at rating 3 makes the mess worse, and piles "inane" on top of it.

Shrike30
QUOTE (TheOneRonin @ Jul 30 2007, 12:03 PM)
If you ask me, your limbs should, at minimum, have stats equal to your meat body.  Then on top of that, they should give bonus dice for tests that involve the limb.

The "Customized Cyberlimbs" from Augmentation essentially allow a character to fork over extra nuyen to have a limb's baseline stats be equal to his, rather than equal to 3, without using Capacity to do so. You can still push their stats beyond your own by upgrading them, as per the BBB.

If that's not an elegant enough solution for you, you could just say that in your games, *all* cyberlimbs are Customized Cyberlimbs and go from there... minimalist house rule to save the day!
PlatonicPimp
You could always get a bulky cyberhand. Then you'd have room.

I'd wager that the smaller fingers simply don't have room otherwise.
eidolon
QUOTE (TheOneRonin)
If you ask me, your limbs should, at minimum, have stats equal to your meat body.

I might be interpreting you incorrectly, but I have to ask "who's meat body"?

You have to realize that the stock BBB cyberlimb is mass produced. It's a baseline. It's the car with the steel wheels and plastic covers, and the cheap single disk deck instead of the media center with land navigation. You want extra? Pay for it.

They're being stamped out in a factory. Some corporate lackey was in charge of a study to determine how "powerful" an average, off the shelf cyberlimb should be, and another lackey was in charge of a market study to see how much they could charge for it. Yet another guy was in charge of a market study to see how much people would be willing to pay to make it better. Some dude on an assembly line is in charge of making sure that some other dude on the assembly line remembers to solder in the power regulation chip. Some other dude in another part of the plant is in charge of making sure that the limbs going out the door aren't too weak...or too strong.

After all, you gotta make the nuyen on the "enhancements". Jokers buying these things don't even realize that when they order the "extra strength" model, we're just soldering in a different power regulator chip.

Etc, etc.
Ol' Scratch
The rules in Augmentation fix every issue I've had with cyberlimbs exept for two, and they require very minor house rules to remedy as opposed to a huge list as before.

House Rule #1: Customized Cyberlimbs have a flat Availability modifier of +4. It's not variable depending on what stats you give it or what race it's for.

House Rule #2: Unarmed Damage with all cyberlimbs except medical replacements (which is what I consider the ones listed in the core rules) are increased to levels similar to Bone Lacing. Full limbs are equal to Titanium Bone Lacing, partial are the same as Aluminum, and hands/feet are the same as Plastic. Melee weapons with variable damage values that are attached to cyberlimbs gain a +1 to +3 DV bonus over the base damage instead of a completely different value; all other stats, such as Reach and whether or not it does Physical or Stun damage, remain the same as listed for the weapon.

Together, those rules fix everything for me. Your mileage may vary as with all things. smile.gif
Dancer
QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)
House Rule #1: Customized Cyberlimbs have a flat Availability modifier of +4. It's not variable depending on what stats you give it or what race it's for.

I'd probably make it +1 availability for each point it exceeds your 'natural' (meat) stats. So a really big strong guy can get an arm that matches his natural strength fairly easy, but if the little weedy guy wants an arm just as strong (but matched to his frame) it's going to be harder to find.
PlatonicPimp
Customizaton only goes up to your meat stats. Past that you have to use the augmentation rules from the BBB, which take up capacity.
Ol' Scratch
QUOTE (Dancer)
I'd probably make it +1 availability for each point it exceeds your 'natural' (meat) stats. So a really big strong guy can get an arm that matches his natural strength fairly easy, but if the little weedy guy wants an arm just as strong (but matched to his frame) it's going to be harder to find.

Sure, I can see that working, too. I just didn't care for trolls being nearly unable to get a limb that just barely matches their average stats, with anything over that being unavailable.

I only went with a set +4 Availability because I don't really see it that hard to "set" an arm to a specific rating within the normal limits of each race. The extra costs, for me anyway, reflect having to install however many extra standardized tendons or servos or whatever that come with the limb, as performed by the cybersurgeon during the installation. All that fun stuff. It's not until you try to go beyond those normal limits that you need to go outside the "kit" and add specialized hardware and whatnot.

Extra costs? Yes. High availability just for normal tolerances? Nah. The extra costs dwarves and trolls pay for all their gear already covers the special needs they have, and that's good enough for me.

That's my logic on the subject at any rate.
Jaid
QUOTE (PlatonicPimp)
Customizaton only goes up to your meat stats. Past that you have to use the augmentation rules from the BBB, which take up capacity.

i remembered it like that too, but when i went back and read augmentation's cyberlimbs section, it says it can go to your natural maximum...
PlatonicPimp
Well shit, I have to go redesign "worst case scenario" the troll cyberzombie again. This means I can crank out another few points of body on that sucker.
Jaid
QUOTE (PlatonicPimp)
Well shit, I have to go redesign "worst case scenario" the troll cyberzombie again. This means I can crank out another few points of body on that sucker.

yeah, with 7 points of available augmentation for each stat in a cyberlimb, i could see that =S

don't forget to throw in gene augmentations to increase his natural maximums vegm.gif
Ravor
Eh, I still double all capacity right off the bat (Haven't decided whether or not to double the "bulky" upgrades as well, but I'm seriously considering it.)

I also allow all of the ( Rating 3 ) Stat Enhancements to be bought eithout using capacity provided they aren't designed to be "hidden". (Not Armor though now that FrankTrollman has confirmed that yes, it does stack completely with normal armor.)

And now that I've read the idea, I'll probably have most normal cyberlimbs count as customized, with only the old cheap junk otherwise.
Ol' Scratch
Double Capacities? :O Wow.
Ravor
Well remember that anything you want installed has to be able to pass my sniff test, so it isn't nearly as bad as it sounds at first. wink.gif
Ol' Scratch
Just seems a little excessive considering how much you can already cram in! Especially with the new Customized Cyberlimbs not taking up any Capacity (which is a big problem with the core limbs).

If it works for you, that's cool though. I keep forgetting people like putting weapons and junk in their limbs. I usually focus on gadgets with a 1-2 Capacity requirement. So a 30 Capacity Cyberarm just has me all agape at the possibilities. biggrin.gif
Sterling
QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)


House Rule #2:  Unarmed Damage with all cyberlimbs except medical replacements (which is what I consider the ones listed in the core rules) are increased to levels similar to Bone Lacing.  Full limbs are equal to Titanium Bone Lacing, partial are the same as Aluminum, and hands/feet are the same as Plastic.  Melee weapons with variable damage values that are attached to cyberlimbs gain a +1 to +3 DV bonus over the base damage instead of a completely different value; all other stats, such as Reach and whether or not it does Physical or Stun damage, remain the same as listed for the weapon.

I totally agree on point two, and will be houseruling the same thing.

I started a thread about this very thing, in fact, and it's nice to see your ideas were very similar to mine in a lot of respects! You did cover cyberlimb weapons which I didn't address, but your ideas are very sound on those points too.

The Jopp
The houserules we have implemented might seem like pure munchkinite but we think it suits the setting.

Cyberlimbs are supposed to be cheap and used by the poor, desperate or those who simply like chrome – not just for shadowrunners.

Now, lets look at a synthetic limb: 20000
Now, lets look at a cloned limb: 21000 (4 weeks)
Why would someone poor choose metal over cloned?

We basically slashed the base price for limbs (all kinds) to 10K torsos 10K, skulls 5K and lower limb 5K and finally hand/foot to 2,5K

Cybertorso have essence 1.5 and cyberskull 0,75. Why? We feel that partial “shells? like these shouldn’t be much more invasive than a full replacement so we lowered them to 1 and 0,5.

Also, a base cyberlimb have the average racial attributes of the chosen metarace and customizing a cyberlimb is only needed if you are above average attributes (because it felt wrong that trolls would have availability 14 limbs just to have a replacement.

End result is that poor people can spend 5K and 1,2 essence on a second hand cyberlimb which is lots cheaper than a cloned limb making the choice much easier.

Also, im in favour of full borgs which means that you can make a full replacement human for 55K and an essence of 5,5. That on the other hand doesn’t include cybernetic eyes, cybereyes and other cosmetic additions that might be needed…5,9 might be a more accurate amount and around 60K without any higher grade.

Remember, it might sound cheap but costs will quickly multiply as soon as you want to increase attributes, grade and add limb implants.

EDIT:
We also cut availability across the board to 4 since addons would quickly raise it higher and well, a cyberskull shouldn't be that darn hard to find compared to say a weapon...
Ravor
Yeah, well when I first thought of the rule I was thinking more about cyberhands and forearms then whole arms, but I figure that this way people can fit in their cyberweapons and still have room for some nice toys as well. cyber.gif

But then again I'm in the "Crome is king" camp so I'm more then slightly bais. smokin.gif
TheOneRonin
QUOTE (eidolon)
QUOTE (TheOneRonin @ Jul 30 2007, 01:03 PM)
If you ask me, your limbs should, at minimum, have stats equal to your meat body.

I might be interpreting you incorrectly, but I have to ask "who's meat body"?


That's a good question. My philosophy is that the standard, mass produced cyberlimb is much tougher, much stronger, and much more agile than the body it is going to be attached to, be it an Ork, Human, Elf, Troll, or Dwarf body. Part of the install process is "governing", if you will, the capabilities of the limb to match it's meat counterpart, or at least reduce the chance of undue stress on the meat body the limb is attached to.

Here's an example: Joe the accountant has average physical stats [3s]. Bob the boxer is is excellent shape (BOD 5), has some serious upper-body strength (STR 5), and is very nimble/coordinated (SGI 4). Joe and Bob are riding in a cab that gets in an accident and both of them lose their right arms, just above the elbow.

Both Joe and Bob get the same identical cyber-replacement arm [Evo Every-Arm™]. For Joe, the limiters on the arm are set low to prevent him from hurting himself. For Bob, the limiters are set higher so as to match his general physical capability. And both arms are capable of much higher stats then they are set to.

That's the way I see cyberlimbs.

Ravor
Makes sense with the new Redlining Rules as well, perhaps allow a user to Redline above the x2 mark, but then the damage becomes Physical as opposed to Stun?
Marwynn
QUOTE (TheOneRonin)
QUOTE (eidolon)
QUOTE (TheOneRonin @ Jul 30 2007, 01:03 PM)
If you ask me, your limbs should, at minimum, have stats equal to your meat body.

I might be interpreting you incorrectly, but I have to ask "who's meat body"?


That's a good question. My philosophy is that the standard, mass produced cyberlimb is much tougher, much stronger, and much more agile than the body it is going to be attached to, be it an Ork, Human, Elf, Troll, or Dwarf body. Part of the install process is "governing", if you will, the capabilities of the limb to match it's meat counterpart, or at least reduce the chance of undue stress on the meat body the limb is attached to.

Here's an example: Joe the accountant has average physical stats [3s]. Bob the boxer is is excellent shape (BOD 5), has some serious upper-body strength (STR 5), and is very nimble/coordinated (SGI 4). Joe and Bob are riding in a cab that gets in an accident and both of them lose their right arms, just above the elbow.

Both Joe and Bob get the same identical cyber-replacement arm [Evo Every-Arm™]. For Joe, the limiters on the arm are set low to prevent him from hurting himself. For Bob, the limiters are set higher so as to match his general physical capability. And both arms are capable of much higher stats then they are set to.

That's the way I see cyberlimbs.

It's how we agreed to it too. Before AUG came out, auspiciously before August too, we houseruled that a cyberlimb has to be tailored to the person. Or at the very least it is responsive enough to "jive" with the meat body and any other cyberware or bioware. Then the enhancement rules would be taken into effect to go beyond it.

All AUG did for us was provide the cost for such customization so yay really for the guys on this book. Spot on. Just wish the availability was flat though.

TheOneRonin
QUOTE (Ravor)
Makes sense with the new Redlining Rules as well, perhaps allow a user to Redline above the x2 mark, but then the damage becomes Physical as opposed to Stun?

But that still doesn't fix what I see as a fundamental problem. Cyberlimbs, right out of the box, should be more CAPABLE than the meat they replace. Yes, those settings are normally tuned down so the average person with a cyber replacement doesn't hurt themselves, but it shouldn't cost any more to bring that cyber up to it's full potential than it does to remove a governor from a go-cart engine.
Ravor
Agreed, but I think the costs come into the testing and tweaking of the limb, not the actual setting adjustments, and that can be easily fixed by giving custom cyberlimbs a fixed additional cost (Or assuming that all cyberlibmbs are custom from the start.).
PlatonicPimp
QUOTE (Jaid)
QUOTE (PlatonicPimp @ Jul 30 2007, 09:50 PM)
Customizaton only goes up to your meat stats. Past that you have to use the augmentation rules from the BBB, which take up capacity.

i remembered it like that too, but when i went back and read augmentation's cyberlimbs section, it says it can go to your natural maximum...

I double checked this. The text does indeed read this way, but the example shows the sammy upgrading using the BBB rules after he hits his actual stats.

My interpretation: You can customize your limb up to your current stats or your natural maximum, whichever is lower. . That means that if you've, say, gotten muscle augmentation, you can customize your limb to take that into account, but only up to your natural maximum.

Example: Bob is human. He has a cyberlimb. His strength is 4. He customizes his cyberlimb as much as he can, up to 4. He after this he must get boosters.

Sam is human. He's got a cyberlimb. His natural strength is 4, and he has rating 2 muscle augmentation. He customizes his limb up to his natural maximum, which is 6.

Fred is human. He's got a cyberlimb. His natural strength i3 5, and he has rating 3 muscle aug. He customizes his limb up to 6, his natural maximum, and then gets 2 levels of strength boost to hit his current augmented strength.
Ol' Scratch
QUOTE (Jaid @ Jul 30 2007, 09:02 PM)
QUOTE (PlatonicPimp @ Jul 30 2007, 09:50 PM)
Customizaton only goes up to your meat stats. Past that you have to use the augmentation rules from the BBB, which take up capacity.

i remembered it like that too, but when i went back and read augmentation's cyberlimbs section, it says it can go to your natural maximum...

It can. But once purchased and installed, that's it. You can't add more customization using those rules to a customized limb because it's a one-time thing (hence it being a modifier to the Availability and cost of the base limb). If you want to augment it further, you have to use the rules in the main sourcebook or buy a brand new customized limb with the stats.

Course in most games, you just pay the difference between the two for upgrading anyway so it's the same difference. But a Customized Cyberlimb with Body 4, Agility 4, and Strength 4 is completely different from one with Body 6, Agility 6, and Strength 6. The latter isn't simply a minor tweak to the former any more than a Ruger Super Warhawk is just a Ares Predator with different stats.
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