 Possession FAQ, Answers to your possession questions |
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 Sep 10 2007, 03:32 AM
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#26
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Immoral Elf  Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486  |
I'm not sure how you read into any of that that INW officially stacks with other armor. It merely states that INW acts like Hardened armor.
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Sep 10 2007, 03:34 AM
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#27
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,288 Joined: 4-September 06 From: The Scandinavian Federation Member No.: 9,300 |
Yup, misunderstood his intent, I've edited my post.
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Sep 10 2007, 03:37 AM
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#28
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
No harm, no foul. :)
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Sep 10 2007, 06:49 AM
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#29
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,269 Joined: 18-September 06 Member No.: 9,421 |
So INW doesn't stack with worn armor? Huh, I could have sworn I read somewhere that it does. I'm too tired and it's too late for me to try and find it though. Seems weird that armor spells, mystic armor, and worn armor all stack, but not INW.
I guess it helps with balance or something. Chris |
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Sep 10 2007, 07:01 AM
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#30
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,288 Joined: 4-September 06 From: The Scandinavian Federation Member No.: 9,300 |
I'm not even sure Armor stacks with Mystic Armor. Both stacks with worn armor, but it doesen't say they stack with eachother. Dermal plating seems to stack with everything except squid... errhh, orthoskin. Damn is this in the FAQ somewhere? I'm confused. |
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Sep 10 2007, 07:41 AM
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#31
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,269 Joined: 18-September 06 Member No.: 9,421 |
You aren't alone, buddy. I've always let everything stack because it's never seemed to affect things too much, but then again I've stated before that I'm generally better with tactics than my players(I dumb it down when the opposition is dumb, but if they have average logic or greater and training then prepare for me to break out the tactics.) Also I trust my players to both keep things within normal bounds and miss big exploits because none of them are true munchkins or rules lawyers. They aren't familiar with the rules and don't want to be.
Chris |
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Sep 10 2007, 07:57 AM
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#32
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
Stacking hardened armor and normal armor has always been a problem, since the two behave completely differently. There are no canon rules for combining the two.
Some people would suggest comparing it to the external armor to determine if it is reduced to stun, rolling the external armor to reduce the DV, and then comparing the result to the natural armor rating to determine if it penetrates. Others would suggest just adding the two ratings and making it all hardened. I would suggest adding only half of the non-hardened rating to the hardened armor's rating. |
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Sep 10 2007, 01:46 PM
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#33
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,269 Joined: 18-September 06 Member No.: 9,421 |
I calculate hardened as hardened, if it bypasses that then I allow AP to affect the target twice. Once on the hardened check, then add whatever that modified armor value is to the normal value and then let AP hit the normal armor as well. It seems to work well balance wise and makes sense with the way I imagine hardened armor.
Chris |
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Sep 10 2007, 01:56 PM
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#34
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,288 Joined: 4-September 06 From: The Scandinavian Federation Member No.: 9,300 |
So far there hasn't been an incident where someone with hardened armor also have worn armor (spirits generally don't wear it, although they probably could).
But for me the logical approach would be to check for no damage first using only hardened armor, and if that fails I check for conversion to stun using total armor (both times reduced/improved by AP). If that also fails the target resists as normal, adding all the dice together modified by AP. Or why shouldn't I do that? |
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Sep 10 2007, 02:22 PM
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#35
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
That is the literal way the rules are written. Hardened Armor checks the modified DV to see if it negates the entire damage. If not, it adds damage resistance dice equal to its rating. Regular armor checks the modified DV to see if it transforms Physical to Stun, and adds damage resistance dice either way. So while both values are individually reduced by AP, and both values add to the damage resistance test, the values don't add to each other at any point while their effects are being calclated. So if you have regular armor and hardened armor side by side for any reason you'll end up with a lot of damage resistance dice and AP will become more attractive against you (since it reduces two different ratings which will both be added to your damage resistance test). -Frank |
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Sep 10 2007, 02:24 PM
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#36
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,246 Joined: 8-June 07 Member No.: 11,869 |
There's nothing in the rules that says that INW does not stack with other armor, so it does. INW stacks just like dermal armor, cyberlimb armor, etc. However, only the hardened armor bounces weapons, so you'd need to keep track of which was which.
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Sep 10 2007, 03:23 PM
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#37
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,288 Joined: 4-September 06 From: The Scandinavian Federation Member No.: 9,300 |
Why would you apply AP twice? That doesen't seem right, and makes it twice as good for no reason. In the damage resistance roll you add all the armor together and then add AP once... or do you also add AP both to a sammie's armor jacket AND his dermal plating? Which would mean Dermal plating sucks... |
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Sep 10 2007, 05:28 PM
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#38
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 524 Joined: 12-April 06 Member No.: 8,455 |
I'll throw out an example, based on what I *think* Frank is saying (and I may certainly be wrong).
Motoko Kusanagi is an experimental Force 6 Inhabited Flesh Form Ally camping in a borged-up body. Among other things, she has, call it 10 armor from her cyberlimbs (yes, it could easily be double that). She is wearing her favorite armor jacket (8/6), when some fool with a gun takes a shot at her, and by some miracle, hits. If the DV does not exceed her 12 Hardened Armor (less AP), she takes no damage. If the DV exceeds her 12 Hardened Armor, but fails to exceed her 18B normal armor (less AP), she takes stun damage, and resists in either case with her *remaining* Hardened Armor+Normal Armor+Body--which means, essentially, (Hardened Armor-AP)+(Normal Armor-AP)+Body. So, if you're hunting spirits, and *especially* if you're hunting bugs, you want AP. ... or SNS *runs* |
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Sep 10 2007, 07:42 PM
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#39
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 285 Joined: 22-April 06 From: Stuttgart, Germany Member No.: 8,495 |
i would say that INW don't tack because nothing stacks in SR4, unless it is mentioned in the rules. multible layers of armor doesn't stack. A mage with a possessed Force 5 Spirit is really good protected, he don't need other armor.
cya Tycho |
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Sep 10 2007, 11:10 PM
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#40
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,246 Joined: 8-June 07 Member No.: 11,869 |
Sure they do, cyberlimb armor stacks with worn armor which stacks with an Armor spell. |
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Sep 10 2007, 11:59 PM
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#41
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
I guess that's why Tycho added the "unless it is mentioned in the rules" part. ;)
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Sep 11 2007, 01:19 AM
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#42
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,288 Joined: 4-September 06 From: The Scandinavian Federation Member No.: 9,300 |
The rules doesen't say if dermal plating stacks with mystic armor or the armor spell, although it does say that all those stack with worn armor. Should we then assume that you can only benefit from one of those at the time in addition to worn armor? Also, a Troll's natural armor is cumulative with natural armor, but where does it say it is cumulative with dermal plating or the armor spell? We just assume so. Now some critters have natural Armor power, which stacks with worn armor. Hardened Armor is said to be even tougher than normal armor, but why should it not stack with worn armor also? It doesen't make sense and makes it somewhat of a weakness (at least when the hardened armor is low to begin with) - which doesen't make sense. "Immunity" works like Hardened armor against a specific form of attack, and again I can't see how they can't benefit from worn armor even if it doesen't specifically say so. Oh, and BTW Big D I still don't understand why AP should be applied to both hardened armor and "normal" armor. Normal which can consist of 3 or 4 types of different kinds of armor that all stack... |
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Sep 14 2007, 03:35 AM
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#43
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,246 Joined: 8-June 07 Member No.: 11,869 |
Added #11.
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Sep 14 2007, 04:40 AM
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#44
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 524 Joined: 12-April 06 Member No.: 8,455 |
I'm just going off of what Frank posted. Synner concurred with that in another thread, and said that there would hopefully be an official resolution one way or the other at some point.
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Oct 4 2007, 10:15 PM
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#45
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 168 Joined: 6-August 06 Member No.: 9,033 |
What happens if a spirit posseses a sword or such?
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Oct 4 2007, 10:28 PM
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#46
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
then you get a sword that is really, really tough. potentially, if the spirit has some method of manipulating the sword, the sword could attack, but iirc you'd an air spirit (or a spirit of man with the right spell). essentially, it isn't (directly) much different from a spirit possessing a rock, imo. |
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Oct 4 2007, 10:59 PM
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#47
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 168 Joined: 6-August 06 Member No.: 9,033 |
Oh okay.
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Oct 5 2007, 01:10 AM
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#48
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 718 Joined: 10-September 05 From: Montevideo, in the elusive shadows of Latin America Member No.: 7,727 |
I haven't got any mages playing with the possession tradition, but I might have one or an NPC in the future. So I do have some questions, which I believe are pretty basic... anyway;
-I always assumed those mages summoned spirits to let them possess themselves. -which is supported by tradition- now: Can they bring them to possess willing party members? unwilling foes? animals? paracritters? dual natured beings like ghouls? vampires? other manifested spirits? I would like to know whether the above cases are possible, if these happen usually in game and what special effects would come up into play eventually. Thanks and sorry if I am asking obvious questions. Cheers, Max |
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Oct 5 2007, 02:17 AM
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#49
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,246 Joined: 8-June 07 Member No.: 11,869 |
Street Magic p101 and the sidebars on 102 and 103 and this FAQ answers all those questions.
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Oct 14 2007, 07:39 PM
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#50
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,246 Joined: 8-June 07 Member No.: 11,869 |
Added #12.
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