 Brainhacking, Ethics? What are they? |
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 Jul 31 2007, 04:37 PM
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#51
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panda!  Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242  |
i was under the impression that hot sim comes as much from signal strength as anything else.
so when i think about it, i would expect the sim module to be wired directly to the input (jack, trode, whatever) but not required to be wired directly to a comlink or similar... |
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Jul 31 2007, 04:38 PM
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#52
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 123 Joined: 7-October 05 From: Glow City Safehouse Member No.: 7,821 |
From basic book, page 214, Quote:
Sim module is nessecary. Taking a user offline from his own sim module will be noticed. Also, on Skin links, a question: Considering I can find one entry on this on page 318, where does it say it can be used with a handshake? My interpretation is that a person has to grip something or that the device has to have a reliable direct connection with the user, not a hand shake. It is an option on electronic devices, that's all it says. This means the 'gift' idea might work, but not someone shaking another person's hand. |
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Jul 31 2007, 04:44 PM
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#53
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
it does not say anywhere that a handshake would do, but people are guessing that it can be done, both because its a broadcast medium similar to wireless (you put a signal onto someones skin and everyone in contact with the skin can pick it up) and because handshake based exchange of data have been shown of as close to reality for some time now (hell, microsoft applied for a patent for a skinlink style system some years ago iirc).
think about it, skinlink is nothing more then a very low current version of a stungun or similar. and if you hold the hand of someone thats hit by one of those, your hit yourself. |
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Jul 31 2007, 04:49 PM
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#54
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 123 Joined: 7-October 05 From: Glow City Safehouse Member No.: 7,821 |
Perhaps, but it would have to be with a glove or a cyberarm, wouldn't it? And even then, how do you reliably force the data transaction between two individuals without him doing something to break the connection? I just don't see it being a practical possibility, based on the half a paragraph describing the technology. |
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Jul 31 2007, 04:53 PM
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#55
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
no it would work on skin alone. thats why i pointed out the stun gun (or for that matter a electic fence).
and data traffic happens very very fast. so if you can win initiative (nice way to calculate speed) and manage to hack in on a single pass, you can get his pan to open up the wireless. another option is to have a agent on standby that will try to hack its way in when the handshake takes place and then perform some actions if it manages to get transfered. |
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Jul 31 2007, 05:02 PM
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#56
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 123 Joined: 7-October 05 From: Glow City Safehouse Member No.: 7,821 |
... And this is where I differ with your interpretation. The book specifically says it uses the electrical pulses on the surface of the skin, and that it requires touch contact. I can't imagine that it wouldn't have some sort of sensation or a jolt of some sort, and because it requires direct contact someone struggling wouldn't likely provide a good connection. It's not covered at all in the hacking section (I know, a weak arguement, but still,) so we have no idea if you can connect as mentioned here. But if it did work that way I would have imagined they would have said something. |
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Jul 31 2007, 05:15 PM
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#57
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Cybernetic Blood Mage Group: Members Posts: 3,472 Joined: 11-March 06 From: Northeastern Wyoming Member No.: 8,361 |
A couple of thoughts after reading this thread:
Hacking someone's commlink wouldn't be enough (Unless they are using an implanted commlink that is.), you'd have to hack the person's Datajack or Trodenet and have that hook up to the sim module you wanted. Personally I don't think that you could do that without it being noticed. Is it just me or are the rules for Brain Hacking that were in Man and Machine absent from AUG? Are they slated to appear in Unwired? *Edit* Oh personally I think hacking someone's skinlink PAN while touching them is possible, but then again in the Shadows I imagine that trying to shake someone's hand or otherwise touching them is a big no-no, not because of the relatively mild risk of skinline hacking (Come on, you've got one or maybe two turns to do your hack without being noticed, it's not that big of a risk.), but because of the risk of ritual links and stealth tags, ect... |
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Jul 31 2007, 05:15 PM
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#58
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Actually, it's a modulation of the EM-field of the body.
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Jul 31 2007, 05:23 PM
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#59
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Ain Soph Aur Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,477 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Montreal, Canada Member No.: 600 |
I agree it's near impossible to pull off without the victim noticing. But not being noticed may not be relevant. |
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Jul 31 2007, 05:26 PM
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#60
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,219 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lofwyr's stomach. Member No.: 1,320 |
A person getting skinlinked hacked might notice a small electrical jolt or buzz or whatever, but unless they knew what the sensation meant, they'd be more likely to put it down to static electricity or something.
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Jul 31 2007, 05:27 PM
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#61
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 327 Joined: 28-January 06 Member No.: 8,209 |
If this is true, then why can't Black Hammer do physical damage to someone using cold sim, let alone someone in AR? They don't say "you do physical damage as long as they're hot-simmed, or have some form of DNIed hardware in the simsense loop." In my games, at least, there's no way you can fry someone's brain unless there's a hot-sim interface to fry it through... The rules seem to contradict the ability for that to happen. |
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Jul 31 2007, 05:32 PM
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#62
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Cybernetic Blood Mage Group: Members Posts: 3,472 Joined: 11-March 06 From: Northeastern Wyoming Member No.: 8,361 |
Sure, when your skinlink connects with theirs they may only feel a slight jolt and not figure things out, but they are probably going to smell something fishy when you try to turn a handshake into "let's hold hands'.
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Jul 31 2007, 05:42 PM
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#63
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
question is, how long does a handshake last, and how long would it take to on the fly hack the target comlink?
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Jul 31 2007, 05:50 PM
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#64
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Cybernetic Blood Mage Group: Members Posts: 3,472 Joined: 11-March 06 From: Northeastern Wyoming Member No.: 8,361 |
I can't speak for other parts of the country/world, but where I live, a handshake lasts just a couple of seconds, and even at jacked AR speeds, I don't think it's reasonable for a Decker to hack into the PAN, make the changes and alter the logs within the space of one combat turn. (Not to mention that it's very possible a "wireless active" message is sent to the user.)
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Jul 31 2007, 05:58 PM
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#65
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,219 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lofwyr's stomach. Member No.: 1,320 |
I know that if I were a corporate business-man, with a skinlink, I'd set my commlink up to detect whenever it came into contact with someone else's skinlink. Then with a quick mental command, everytime I shake hands with someone they get my E-card. In fact, I would think that something like this would be pretty standard fare, so that sararimen meeting each other for the first time would expect small data exchanges that pu each other into their social networking management software. This is more than adequate time to upload an agent.
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Jul 31 2007, 06:37 PM
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#66
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,246 Joined: 8-June 07 Member No.: 11,869 |
Hacker: "Well hellllooo there Mr. Johnson." <really long handshake> ;) Mr. Johnson: "Uh, I don't swing that way, but I'm flattered." <yanks hand away, takes 5 foot step back> |
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Jul 31 2007, 06:39 PM
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#67
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 410 Joined: 5-April 07 From: Vancouver, BC Member No.: 11,383 |
Do datajacks actually have wireless capability? I thought the entire point of a datajack was so you could hardwire things directly to your brain. I guess that opens up a whole new can o worms if they are wireless.
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Jul 31 2007, 06:42 PM
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#68
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Cybernetic Blood Mage Group: Members Posts: 3,472 Joined: 11-March 06 From: Northeastern Wyoming Member No.: 8,361 |
Sure, datajacks are intra-pan devices so they have ( Signal 0 ) for a reach of 3 meters, plus the hardwired connection, and the ability to be skinlink adapted. :cyber:
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Jul 31 2007, 06:43 PM
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#69
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Cybernetic Blood Mage Group: Members Posts: 3,472 Joined: 11-March 06 From: Northeastern Wyoming Member No.: 8,361 |
Also something to consider is that if you upload an Agent ontp a PAN, you are changing the system load, and that by itself is probably going to get noticed. :cyber:
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Jul 31 2007, 06:50 PM
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#70
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
just like someone notice a worm hitting windows today and shrug it of as just normal behavior... |
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Jul 31 2007, 06:55 PM
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#71
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Cybernetic Blood Mage Group: Members Posts: 3,472 Joined: 11-March 06 From: Northeastern Wyoming Member No.: 8,361 |
Considering how system load works in the Sixth World I'd say it's alot more unlikely for someone to pass a Responce drop off as "normal system behavior".
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Jul 31 2007, 07:03 PM
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#72
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Ain Soph Aur Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,477 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Montreal, Canada Member No.: 600 |
[ Spoiler ]
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Jul 31 2007, 07:05 PM
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#73
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Ain Soph Aur Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,477 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Montreal, Canada Member No.: 600 |
As far as i can tell, Datajacks are totally useless now. Trodes are just as good and cost no essense. |
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Jul 31 2007, 07:09 PM
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#74
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Cybernetic Blood Mage Group: Members Posts: 3,472 Joined: 11-March 06 From: Northeastern Wyoming Member No.: 8,361 |
Umm, unless AUG changed something that I missed, a sim module must be accessed by whatever DNI you've got, whether that is an implanted commlink, trodenet, or datajack, so even by RAW the tactic under discussion is only possible if you are within the ( Signal Rating ) of your target's set of trodes/datajack/implanted commlink. *Edit*
Not quite, even if you go strictly by RAW, datajacks are still good for mentally using BTLs, Know-softs, Linga-softs, ect... Plus you don't have to worry about a datajack getting knocked off either in a "common sense" moment or as a Glitch result. |
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Jul 31 2007, 07:14 PM
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#75
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Sure. But since it's wireless access, you can relay it.
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