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Dancer
Say I want to get past a receptionist, so I hack his datajack/internal commlink/'trode net and subscribe my (hotsim equipped) commlink. I then run a personafix that makes him very trusting and gullible, sell him a story about forgetting my ID code, and cover my electronic traces as I walk away.

In other situations I use other 'fixes. If I'm intimidating someone I make them a spineless coward. If I need to get information out of someone I turn them into a garrolous sot.

1) Is this possible?
2) Could a Personafix include a prohibition against noticing the fact that you've been fixed?
3) What sort of bonus would be applied to social tests after installing a suitable moodchip/personafix on somebody?
Blade
1) It's possible through datajack and trode net but not internal commlink (except if this internal commlink is equipped with a hotsim module).
But most of the time the trode net/datajack will have a signal reduced to the minimum (if they are not directly plugged in the commlink through wires or skinlink). So except if you stand right next to the victim, you won't be able to send the signal directly from your hotsim module to the DNI of the victim. If you hack the victim's commlink first and use it as a relay, the signals will go through the victim's sim module (which may not be hotsim enabled), which will limit the strength of the signal.
You might affect the victim but not as much as with a true BTL signal.

Furthermore the RAS might trigger (I don't know which element take care of that).

2) It was already possible two decades ago, according to the 2XS novel.

3) I guess it'd depends on the quality of the programming of the P-Fix and how it is related to the situation. But I think that with a good P-Fix you can just skip social test and have the guy do and believe what you want him to.

Some people might complain that it's too powerful and game-breaking, but that's just a technological Mindcontrol spell.
Rotbart van Dainig
With the Sim Module now a seperate box, it does not matter where it is.

So once you took control of his brain interface, whatever that may be, you are free to feed any simsense you like.

MaxHunter
I like it! Where's unwired when I need it!!

Cheers,

Evil-minded Max
NightmareX
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig)
With the Sim Module now a seperate box, it does not matter where it is.

So once you took control of his brain interface, whatever that may be, you are free to feed any simsense you like.

Rotbart, that simple statement and the realization of it's correctness opens up a whole new world of agony in SR. My players will certainly be cursing your name - thank you devil.gif
Blade
As I said, it matters a bit because you need to send the data out from the sim module directly to the DNI of the victim without going through another sim module which would limit the signal.
And connecting directly to a DNI is not so easy.
Dancer
QUOTE (Blade)
As I said, it matters a bit because you need to send the data out from the sim module directly to the DNI of the victim without going through another sim module which would limit the signal.
And connecting directly to a DNI is not so easy.

You'll need to get a modified sim module within wireless range of the target. Perhaps in a microdrone?
Cadmus
Well we know who's been watching ghost in a shell stand alone complex now don't we biggrin.gif
Buster
QUOTE (Dancer)
QUOTE (Blade @ Jul 31 2007, 12:45 PM)
As I said, it matters a bit because you need to send the data out from the sim module directly to the DNI of the victim without going through another sim module which would limit the signal.
And connecting directly to a DNI is not so easy.

You'll need to get a modified sim module within wireless range of the target. Perhaps in a microdrone?

Can't you just hack in through the matrix? If the target is connected to the matrix, then they are always within wireless range.
hobgoblin
they wonder what effect a cold-sim (the default) module will have on any potential personafix attack, as thats a BTL, and requires hot-sim.

still, there is a fluff notice in emergence about some people doing a cold-sim tour of the matrix and being killed by a TM attacker. now if thats scaremongering or "truth" thats a different story...
Dancer
QUOTE (Buster)
Can't you just hack in through the matrix? If the target is connected to the matrix, then they are always within wireless range.

I'm routing to the module via the matrix, but I'm assuming that I have to go directly from the module to the DNI interface. Otherwise you could fry people's brains from the other side of the city. And you wouldn't need a modified (and illegal) sim module to play BTLs, you could just stream the uncompressed version from an illegal node.
Buster
You do need a hot/illegal sim module to play BTLs but that sim module can be sitting in your lap at home since sim modules can be connected remotely to the target's neural interface such as their datajack, trodes, even their cybereyes. (that's assuming you can route a BTL stream thru the matrix)
Blade
I guess you can route a BTL stream through the Matrix because if you couldn't, Black Hammer and other such attacks wouldn't have the same effect on hackers in hotsim.
EDIT : Actually, the BTL signal sent on the Matrix will basically look like "Send (255,255,255) on brain input #3. The Sim module will do the translation in "brain signal")

I guess the only thing that could filter the BTL signal is the unmoded simmodule. That's why I suggest that you have to send the signal directly to the user's DNI because if you route it through his simmodule, it'll filter it.
Dancer
QUOTE (Blade)
I guess you can route a BTL stream through the Matrix because if you couldn't, Black Hammer and other such attacks wouldn't have the same effect on hackers in hotsim.

But Black IC only kills people if they're using hot sim. If the hacker is using cold sim, the remote host can't send a hot-sim signal to his DNI. That's why I think you need a local sim module.
Rifleman
QUOTE (Blade)
I guess you can route a BTL stream through the Matrix because if you couldn't, Black Hammer and other such attacks wouldn't have the same effect on hackers in hotsim.
....
I guess the only thing that could filter the BTL signal is the unmoded simmodule. That's why I suggest that you have to send the signal directly to the user's DNI because if you route it through his simmodule, it'll filter it.

Really, both Blade and Dancer have it right. The only major problem is that pesky Sim-Module we always mod and then forget about.

For everyone else, it's the hardwired wall between the hackers and civilization. Since it's a problem of a Hardwired module (Main book, pg. 229) you can't just hack around it.

Well at least not directly.

There are some ways around this, especially if they are connecting wirelessly to their com via Nanite paste or some other means. And that would be to jack their access and have them subscribe to your (hot modded) com first and then to their normal, hum drum and safe normal simlink module com.

... Wow, suddenly Datajacks make so much more sense.
Blade
@Dancer: Maybe I wasn't clear enough, or my English isn't good enough, but that's exactly my point.

Basically you have :
BTL -> Matrix -> Commlink -> Sim Module -> DNI -> Brain

The signal is only modified by the Sim Module which will convert it to signal the DNI can feed to the brain. If it's a hotsim module, the module will convert all the signal. If it's a coldsim module, it will filter the signal.

So if you want to send a BTL signal to the brain of a user of a coldsim module, you'll have to do it that way :
Hacker's commlink -> Hackers hotsim module -> Victim's DNI -> Victim's Brain
The problem is that it's hard to get close enough to the victim's DNI signal (using a drone or a RFID tag might be the best solution).
Backgammon
You could do like they do in GitS and plug your own commlink into the user's datajack, then fry his brain.

Or another really cool way is the Handshake of Death, if both the aggressor and the victim use skinlink (which is likely). Make skin contact, lightning-fast hack yourself into his PAN, have your hotsim-commlink access his DNI device (trode/datajack) and fry his brain.

I don't think you can fry someone's brain from 100km away because, for that trick, you need to have the DNI device receive input from YOUR commlink, not the users. So unsubscribing the DNI from the commlink in order to have it subscribe to yours would instantly cause it to be unable to transmit it's signal over the matrix.

This is going on the assumption that DNI devices only accept 1 source of input. It doesn't state that anywhere, but it makes sense for me (and also acts as a brain-fry limiter, so sounds good to me).
hobgoblin
hmm, handshake upload of agent...
Dancer
I think I could fry someone's brain from 100km away, if there was a commlink with a modified sim module in direct wireless range of their DNI device. I connect to their commlink via the matrix, and from there to their datajack. After owning the datajack I subscribe the hot commlink to it. I now have a hot-sim enabled commlink directly connected to their DNI, and can commence brainhacking.

An implanted commlink with an unmodified sim module is probably proof against brainhacking though, there's no way to get an unfiltered signal (unless I can deactivate their sim module in software, then subscribe the modified sim module I planted nearby to their internal commlink. Not sure if this is possible.)
Rifleman
QUOTE (Dancer)
An implanted commlink with an unmodified sim module is probably proof against brainhacking though, there's no way to get an unfiltered signal (unless I can deactivate their sim module in software, then subscribe the modified sim module I planted nearby to their internal commlink. Not sure if this is possible.)

The problem is that the sim module is what's connecting them TO the Matrix. So if you turn it off on them, they get dumped and you lose connection.

Also, if they have a datajack and are connected by wire to their comlink, it's as effective as an internal comlink.
NightmareX
QUOTE (Blade @ Jul 31 2007, 09:31 AM)
The problem is that it's hard to get close enough to the victim's DNI signal (using a drone or a RFID tag might be the best solution).

Couldn't that problem be subverted by simply hacking the victim's commlink, then using that to hack the datajack (then subscribe it to your commlink etc)?

Edited - beat to the punch it seems wink.gif
Dancer
QUOTE (Rifleman)
The problem is that the sim module is what's connecting them TO the Matrix. So if you turn it off on them, they get dumped and you lose connection.

No, their commlink is connecting them to the matrix. The sim module just allows them to use VR to interact with it.
QUOTE
Also, if they have a datajack and are connected by wire to their comlink, it's as effective as an internal comlink.

But who would do that? Apart from hyper-paranoid runners.
Dancer
QUOTE (NightmareX)
Couldn't that problem be subverted by simply hacking the victim's commlink, then using that to hack the datajack (then subscribe it to your commlink etc)?

Yep. But your commlink will need to be in range of their datajack.

Anyone know what the Signal of a standard datajack is? It could be anywhere between 0 (6m, 'intra pan device') and 2 (100m, 'headware transceiver') as far as I can tell from the book.
Backgammon
Here's a thought - is a hotsim a software or hardware modifications...? If it's software, you could modify it on the fly, turning the user's benign sim module into a lethal hotsim modified sim module. That would solve the distance problem.
Backgammon
QUOTE (Dancer)
QUOTE (NightmareX @ Jul 31 2007, 02:58 PM)
Couldn't that problem be subverted by simply hacking the victim's commlink, then using that to hack the datajack (then subscribe it to your commlink etc)?

Yep. But your commlink will need to be in range of their datajack.

Anyone know what the Signal of a standard datajack is? It could be anywhere between 0 (6m, 'intra pan device') and 2 (100m, 'headware transceiver') as far as I can tell from the book.

Could depend on the model. GM's call.
Dancer
It's hardware. See the sim module description on BBB pg318 (use the Hardware skill to modify a sim module).
Blade
Intra Pan. It doesn't make sense to have it accessible from more than 6m (and 3m should be enough).

Maybe you can get the DNI to connect to the victim's commlink directly without having a simmodule in between and then have your sim module send its data to the victim's commlink, but I don't think that'd work : the messages sent by your simmodule are "brain signal" which the commlink won't understand and will simply drop.
Rotbart van Dainig
It takes time and Hardware Skill.
NightmareX
QUOTE (Dancer)
Yep. But your commlink will need to be in range of their datajack.

Not your commlink, but rather anything with wireless capability that can piggyback the signal. Now I understand all the in game paranoia about technomancers biggrin.gif
Dancer
QUOTE (NightmareX)
QUOTE (Dancer @ Jul 31 2007, 10:02 AM)
Yep. But your commlink will need to be in range of their datajack.

Not your commlink, but rather anything with wireless capability that can piggyback the signal. Now I understand all the in game paranoia about technomancers biggrin.gif

I'm reasonably certain that the DNI device needs to connect directly to a hotsim equipped commlink. So you either need to get your commlink in range of their datajack (trode rig), or a modified sim module in range of their commlink.
Moon-Hawk
In my game, I would rule (for sanity's sake) that the hot-sim module (it doesn't matter whose) has to be in direct contact with the DNI device. Low signal range on their DNI device, skinlink, no wi-fi could all apply varying degrees of protection.
I want tricks like this to be possible, but not trivial. If you allow the hot-sim module to communicate with the DNI through any intermediate device you can do this trick from anywhere on virtually anyone with any kind of DNI, and that's bad, IMO.
So as long as your hot-sim module is talking directly to their DNI, this works. Again, this is my interpretation for my game, not a statement of universal truth.

Combining this with the prevalence of skinlink, plus a bit of '80s japanaphilia, and I would conclude that the threat of skinlink hacking would result in handshakes and any other form of physical contact being quite taboo in the business world, with people bowing instead of shaking hands. It's paranoid. It's japanese. What more could you want? biggrin.gif
Wakshaani
Well, there's a few issues. First of all, a Persona Fix of "More gullible guy" is a bit hard to manage. It's one thing to have it broadcast an emotion, such as happyness, which requires a Sim module, or to crank up brain chemsitry (Again, via Sim Module) to give more confidence, but "More gullible" is a pretty nebulous thing. Trying to get someone geared up to record such a track is going to be awfully tricky and it won't really have a market.

Now "Screaming Terror" as a dreamchip, where the person gets drug through roller coatsers, skydiving, shark attacks, whatever, then given a chance to submit or be put back in there? Yeah, there you have a shot. Finding out that Manager Bob has a fear of stinging insects, so you track down a copy of Euphoria's "Against the Hive"? Valid. But "Turn guy into a sucker" is a real challenge.

From there, it's just a matter of getting the program running via a sim, directly contacting the target. If they don't have a mental link, for example a datajack or onboard commlink, you're kind of screwed, since you'll need "The Chair" and a set of trodes to hook him up and run him through for a while ... not really that subtle.

Note that even Psychotropic IC needs this kind of a link ... if you're in AR, sans Sim Module, they can't re-write your brain. In contrast, if you're HotSimming, you could be in for a world of hurt.

Friends don't let friends HotSim.
Dancer
What you say is true for moodchips. But a P-Fix can instill far more subtle and far reaching changes. "While under the chip's influence, the user becomes a different person."
Backgammon
Your reason are good and flaourful, but I think skinlink hacking between businessmen probably isn't a concern, unless there is deep suspicion between the two companies. I mean, you're here to do business, not declare war.

I think it'd be a HUGE thing in the shadows though. Anyone that touches you is probably hacking you.
hyzmarca
If you're going to personafix a receptionist, you might as well do it with a James Bond P-Fix that has you cast as M.
Backgammon
New evil idea of the minute:

What if you simply got the hotsim module within communication contact of the victim (short wireless or skin contact). You could then hack the person's commlink, have it subscribe the hotsim, and then send in via matrix your lethal feed?

It could be fairly easy to disguise your hotsim module as a gift or somthing benign (household object, etc), whatever it takes to get it near the person. You then retreat to the safety of your bunker, execute the hack, subscribe the hostim, and send a lethal signal?
Blade
Just like in the A-Team: "Here take this pen, free gift from our company." with a microphone inside the pen.

Did that a couple of time when I first played SR.
NightmareX
QUOTE (Dancer)
I'm reasonably certain that the DNI device needs to connect directly to a hotsim equipped commlink. So you either need to get your commlink in range of their datajack (trode rig), or a modified sim module in range of their commlink.

I don't see why you'd have to honestly - after all, BTLs can run via a wireless connection to a datajack or simrig, right? Same with hotsim VR? So, if this is the case, it's not so much an issue of hardware placement but signal quality right? And since signal quality is determined solely by the device's Signal rating, then so long as the simsense code is generated by the sim module, delivered to the neural interface, and not filtered out by another sim module anything in Signal range (6-100m, that's alot of stuff in SR4) could logically transmit this code (regardless of it's own hardware so long as it has wifi capability). I really see no reason why piggybacking the hot simsense signal wouldn't be possible given the set up of the second Matrix.

And, for what it's worth, I agree Moon-Hawk - this is a phenomenally bad thing. Aside from the trivial appeal to my sadistic GM tendencies, this literally means that the hackers shall inherit the Earth. Want some wetwork done? Why bother hiring a traditional hitman when your friendly neighborhood hacker is so much more subtle? It changes the entire landscape of the game.
NightmareX
QUOTE (Backgammon)
What if you simply got the hotsim module within communication contact of the victim (short wireless or skin contact). You could then hack the person's commlink, have it subscribe the hotsim, and then send in via matrix your lethal feed?

It could be fairly easy to disguise your hotsim module as a gift or somthing benign (household object, etc), whatever it takes to get it near the person. You then retreat to the safety of your bunker, execute the hack, subscribe the hostim, and send a lethal signal?

Yes. I don't see why not. Blackhammer R Us.
Moon-Hawk
QUOTE (Backgammon)
New evil idea of the minute:

What if you simply got the hotsim module within communication contact of the victim (short wireless or skin contact). You could then hack the person's commlink, have it subscribe the hotsim, and then send in via matrix your lethal feed?

It could be fairly easy to disguise your hotsim module as a gift or somthing benign (household object, etc), whatever it takes to get it near the person. You then retreat to the safety of your bunker, execute the hack, subscribe the hostim, and send a lethal signal?

Sounds like a viable plan to me. They've got a small chance to detect the hidden mode sim module. You still have to successfully execute the hack. They have to be using skinlink (since a hardwired system won't be vulnerable to this)
It's a nasty trick, but it requires a good setup and isn't foolproof.
I don't think it's broken, it's just powerful and clever, and as a GM I wouldn't have a problem with that.
Blade
QUOTE (NightmareX)
And, for what it's worth, I agree Moon-Hawk - this is a phenomenally bad thing. Aside from the trivial appeal to my sadistic GM tendencies, this literally means that the hackers shall inherit the Earth. Want some wetwork done? Why bother hiring a traditional hitman when your friendly neighborhood hacker is so much more subtle? It changes the entire landscape of the game.

Even if I also think it should be a bit difficult to pull off, is it worse than manipulation spells (mindcontrol, influence...) which can be targeted at anyone in LoS (and beyond in case of a ritual spell)?
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (Dancer)
I'm reasonably certain that the DNI device needs to connect directly to a hotsim equipped commlink.

That is not the case.
Dancer
I think we're going to need a developed answer to settle this completely. If all a sim module does is turn one digital signal into a different digital signal you don't really need a sim module in your commlink at all, just get the neurocompatible signal directly.
Blade
Except that the commlink will not be able to deal with the neurosignal which isn't a matrix packet.

Example :
Matrix packet: '<Neurosignal> *Encoded Neurosignal* </neurosignal>' This is encoded as a data packet.
After the Simmodule, you get a series of electric signal to be sent to the DNI. You can compare that to sending packet to the Internet through a RTC line: you need a modem to turn the analog signal to numeric signal and vice versa. You're computer won't understand if you directly plug the analog signal.

Furthermore I guess the signal is tailored to the brain of the receiver, so hacking the commlink to have it send something that'll be like the signal you need directly to the DNI with a "software modem" should be a bit tough to manage.
Backgammon
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig)
QUOTE (Dancer @ Jul 31 2007, 05:17 PM)
I'm reasonably certain that the DNI device needs to connect directly to a hotsim equipped commlink.

That is not the case.

This may be true by RAW, but personally I'm ruling against it.

Hackers being able to kill anyone from any distance opens too many problems. Hell, the next computer virus could simply kill everyone. Someone, somewhere, while designing the new matrix, would have said 'hey, maybe opening up the earth's modern population to global genocide via computer virus is a bad idea'.
neko128
QUOTE (Backgammon)
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig @ Jul 31 2007, 11:54 AM)
QUOTE (Dancer @ Jul 31 2007, 05:17 PM)
I'm reasonably certain that the DNI device needs to connect directly to a hotsim equipped commlink.

That is not the case.

This may be true by RAW, but personally I'm ruling against it.

Hackers being able to kill anyone from any distance opens too many problems. Hell, the next computer virus could simply kill everyone. Someone, somewhere, while designing the new matrix, would have said 'hey, maybe opening up the earth's modern population to global genocide via computer virus is a bad idea'.

Shouldn't that be, "...kill anyone who's hooked up to their commlink via a sim module from a distance..." rather than just "...kill anyone from a distance..."? Don't 95%+ of the population, at least most of the time, simply run their commlinks from AR-aware goggles or sunglasses or contacts?
Dancer
You wouldn't neccesarily need to be using a sim module but you would need to have some form of DNI available (Datajack, implanted commlink, 'trodes).
Buster
QUOTE (Backgammon @ Jul 31 2007, 11:08 AM)
Hackers being able to kill anyone from any distance opens too many problems.

Making hackers too powerful isn't the issue, making IC too powerful is the issue. If you can arbitrarily send hotsim attacks to a user, then black IC would not be limited by someone using coldsim. Therefore, the logical rule is that you need to be in direct contact with a hotsim device to use hotsim, be brainhacked, use BTL chips, or be subjected to black IC. Therefore, you'd need your hotsim transceiver to be at signal 0 range or skinlinked to do the brainhacking trick.
Backgammon
QUOTE (Buster)
QUOTE (Backgammon @ Jul 31 2007, 11:08 AM)
Hackers being able to kill anyone from any distance opens too many problems.

Making hackers too powerful isn't the issue, making IC too powerful is the issue. If you can arbitrarily send hotsim attacks to a user, then black IC would not be limited by someone using coldsim. Therefore, the logical rule is that you need to be in direct contact with a hotsim device to use hotsim, be brainhacked, use BTL chips, or be subjected to black IC. Therefore, you'd need your hotsim transceiver to be at signal 0 range or skinlinked to do the brainhacking trick.

I agree.

Put it this way - the last device to communicate with the DNI device must have the hotsim module.
Rotbart van Dainig
You can't just 'send somebody hot sim'. You need to hack his Comlink for Admin access first.
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